Hetzner denied signup :(

jsg · May 30

Something of that kind crossed my mind too. When people get a "No" many tend to feel insulted and ask for reasons and a discussion but actually are largely driven by negative emotions. So I guessed that something like that might be your reason to just say "no" and cut the line. It seems to be rude but probably creates less pain for many.

I would however suggest that you at least provide a hint of the reasons before cutting the line.

deank · May 30

better not provide the reasons. Pretty sure they will get racism complaints.

hanoi · May 30

@Clouvider said:
It is highly unlikely that Hetzner would deny you service for no reason. They are a business. Business is to make money, not to reject orders for no reason.

I agreed with you. Other giant providers(AMZ, Google cloud,OVH, DO, Online.Net,Linode, Vultr....), their price is very cheap and I believe they face with huge times abuse than Hetzner but look at them, their support always friendly and have a nice way to anti-fraud. I don't blame Hetzner, it's Hetzner choice, just compared to others and advise OP give up with Hetzner.

doghouch · May 30

Verification went pretty smoothly for me. +1 for @Hetzner_OL

jvnadr · May 30

Tats said: Are you stupid?

Nice attitude from a new member. If you continue this way, I don't see long future in you on LET community...

deank · May 30

I don't think he plans to stick around anyway since we don't support him.

Silvest · May 30

I don't think I ever had to send any ID =]

deank · May 30

I don't get the point of this whole thread actually. So, a business rejected a client based on risk assessment. So what. Move on. It's not like Hetzner is the only webhosting company out there.

willie · May 30

I definitely had to send ID and thought everyone did. I remember I had a bunch of failed signup attempts because it was back then impossible to sign up with Hetzner without first ordering a server, and I was trying to order auction servers that kept getting bought out from under me, presumably by customers who already had accounts (so their order process was much quicker since they didn't have to enroll an account as part of it).

These days it might be possible to start with a cloud server at very low cost.

jvnadr · May 30

willie said: I definitely had to send ID and thought everyone did.

I also being asked to send an ID copy and I was really OK with that. My registration procedure kept smooth and in less than an hour, I got my first server with them.
I cannot really understand why a hosting provider do not have the right to ask for verification. If you have a contract with a telephone company, an electricity provider, renting a car or a house to live, you have to give a copy of your ID/passport. Why some people are OK with that but not OK when a big hosting company refuses to rent a server to a random person without any verification at all? After all, if he uses the service for a serious illegal purpose (child pornography, trafficking, black market, money laundering or even spam) who will be responsible for that?
On the other hand, I would not give such details to a random summer/kiddie host because I don't trust some one-man-show kiddie that holds my personal documents in his bedroom when living in his parents house...

deank · May 30

I wouldn't give my ID and other info to some random kid on the net anyway.

Fairly easy to tell who's a potential whack job thankfully.

Cdoe · May 30

@Tats said:

@Cdoe said:
Most of customers don't even need to provide any ID to Hetzner. And if something is not clear - they do and you get approved without problems.

I cannot even imagine what kind of shit you had to pull out in the past to get banned by them. I had plenty of services with them, got few abuse letters back in ~2009 when I was too stupid to even harden my servers. I got nullrouted when they didn't offer any anti-ddos. I've dropped/rotated couple of auction servers due to old hardware. I was late on some invoices. And I have never been suspended or even warned.

And suddenly out of nowhere here come's the innocent guy from India, who has been banned without any reason. Sure.

Are you stupid? I was never accepted in Hetzner..

Cool story bro, but I never mentioned you in my reply, so don't insult me moron.

willie · June 1

jvnadr said: If you have a contract with a telephone company, an electricity provider, renting a car or a house to live, you have to give a copy of your ID/passport.

I definitely didn't give any ID to my phone company (prepaid cell phone, paid in cash). I don't have an electricity provider (electricity is included in my rent). I've definitely rented housing including motel rooms in the past with no ID but might have needed it in the place where I am right now. Car rental: I guess you've got me on that one but I suspect they're legally required to get it.

The vast majority of hosting providers I use didn't ask for ID. Hetzner asked and I went along with it (they wanted a passport scan and I sent it). A couple of others asked and I refused (they wanted selfies of me holding my ID card, which I saw as more invasive). OVH didn't ask though I know they do ask it from some users. It's all risk management. They know the expected profit from a good signup, the expected loss from an abuse incident, and the likelihood that an ID request will cause a good user go somewhere else, so they estimate the probability of abuse and do the math. That suggests that providers with higher profit margins are less likely to ask for ID. I don't know if that plays out in practice, but I know Hetzner's margins must be pretty low.

angstrom · June 1

@willie said: but I know Hetzner's margins must be pretty low.

Not saying that you're wrong about this, but just wondering: how do you know?

pullangcubo · June 1

@willie said:
A couple of others asked and I refused (they wanted selfies of me holding my ID card, which I saw as more invasive).

wtf? First time I heard a provider asking something like this...will you be able to mention them?

willie · June 1

angstrom said: Not saying that you're wrong about this, but just wondering: how do you know?

No inside info, just that I know what the hardware costs and that others charge much more for the same stuff.

pullangcubo said: wtf? First time I heard a provider asking something like this...will you be able to mention them?

Digital Ocean is the one I remember (Jarland straightened it out for me later so I do use and like them now). Someone else did also but I don't remember. It is quite common these days. I'm not sure of the reason, but on making the wild guess that it has something to do with facial recognition databases, I decided to not participate.

angstrom · June 1

@willie said: angstrom said: Not saying that you're wrong about this, but just wondering: how do you know?

No inside info, just that I know what the hardware costs and that others charge much more for the same stuff.

You're probably right. I imagine that they simply have a lot of hardware, so they can make a profit on quantity, but it must be challenging.

Janevski · June 1

I'd like to see some honesty from the providers. For example, when submitting documents, including ID scan for service usage, a very honest deny reply would be:

Too ugly to use our services.

pullangcubo · June 1

@willie said:
It is quite common these days. I'm not sure of the reason, but on making the wild guess that it has something to do with facial recognition databases, I decided to not participate.

The only instances I was asked for an ID was by netcup and Hetzner, and I sent them heavily redacted scanned copies where there was more black rectangles than the actual ID. I shudder to think of being required for something akin to a mugshot. Yup, I might likewise walk away if I were asked the same.

Clouvider · June 1

@Cdoe said:

@Tats said:

@Cdoe said:
Most of customers don't even need to provide any ID to Hetzner. And if something is not clear - they do and you get approved without problems.

I cannot even imagine what kind of shit you had to pull out in the past to get banned by them. I had plenty of services with them, got few abuse letters back in ~2009 when I was too stupid to even harden my servers. I got nullrouted when they didn't offer any anti-ddos. I've dropped/rotated couple of auction servers due to old hardware. I was late on some invoices. And I have never been suspended or even warned.

And suddenly out of nowhere here come's the innocent guy from India, who has been banned without any reason. Sure.

Are you stupid? I was never accepted in Hetzner..

Cool story bro, but I never mentioned you in my reply, so don't insult me moron.

Responding with an insult, someone has some growing up to do ;-).

Cdoe · June 1

Yeah, because adulthood is about being a nice punchbag for people who spit on you.

deank · June 1

Adulthood is all about working your ass to pay off mortgage on your home.

If you ain't doing that, there is something wrong with your plan in life. Unless of course your parents are so rich that you don't need to work.
Well, if so, why would you be on LET.

Nekki · June 1

@Cdoe said:
Yeah, because adulthood is about being a nice punchbag for people who spit on you.

Surely that’d mean you’re a spittoon for the people who spit on you?

rtfm · June 7

retry with the same email for a new account. it worked for me.

deank · June 7

Too late. OP sulked in a corner for days and his pool of tears dried completely.

bingodingo · June 8

@rtfm said:
retry with the same email for a new account. it worked for me.

I have an open ticket with no response from them - I have no intentions of going through this crap if they don't value me as a customer.

@deank said:
Too late. OP sulked in a corner for days and his pool of tears dried completely.

OP is sulking with OneProvider instead

bingodingo · June 8

@Hetzner_OL said:
@bingodingo We at Hetzner Online have had some bad experience in the past when we explained exactly why we rejected orders.
//redacted//
--Katie, Marketing

This closure is enough, would've appreciated a response to my ticket, but oh well.

Clouvider · June 8

@bingodingo said:

@Hetzner_OL said:
@bingodingo We at Hetzner Online have had some bad experience in the past when we explained exactly why we rejected orders.
//redacted//
--Katie, Marketing

This closure is enough, would've appreciated a response to my ticket, but oh well.

You had a response saying that they unfortunately are not interested in your custom. What else do you need ?

Silvest · June 8

@Clouvider said:

@bingodingo said:

@Hetzner_OL said:
@bingodingo We at Hetzner Online have had some bad experience in the past when we explained exactly why we rejected orders.
//redacted//
--Katie, Marketing

This closure is enough, would've appreciated a response to my ticket, but oh well.

You had a response saying that they unfortunately are not interested in your custom. What else do you need ?

A server with @Clouvider :-)

deank · June 8

Nah, OP likes rejection apparently.

What he wants is an official, registered, letter sent to him, saying "You've got a mail! Congrats, you've been rejected!"

rtfm · June 8

@bingodingo said:

@rtfm said:
retry with the same email for a new account. it worked for me.

I have an open ticket with no response from them - I have no intentions of going through this crap if they don't value me as a customer.

@deank said:
Too late. OP sulked in a corner for days and his pool of tears dried completely.

OP is sulking with OneProvider instead

hello,
i had sent a number of emails without any answer, so i decided to open a new account with correct data and everything went ok.

salmon · July 5

@Hetzner_OL your authentication system is either broken or you have a reason stored to reject me. Tried to sign up twice. I have a UK IP, UK address, UK debit card and UK passport, all entered correctly as far as I can tell and rejected.

You must remember that data you process and store is now subject to the GDPR in the EU. So send over the reason or fix your system :-)

Update: account got verified after I responded asking if they wanted more documentation and what was wrong. Seems very odd, maybe the image I sent was too big? Was around 4mb.

cociu · July 5

teamacc said: I don't even work in the hosting business.

porn ?

Clouvider · July 5

salmon said: You must remember that data you process and store is now subject to the GDPR in the EU. So send over the reason or fix your system :-)

Update: account got verified after I responded asking if they wanted more documentation and what was wrong. Seems very odd, maybe the image I sent was too big? Was around 4mb.

lol, they don't owe you any reason under GDPR.

salmon · July 5

@Clouvider said:

salmon said: You must remember that data you process and store is now subject to the GDPR in the EU. So send over the reason or fix your system :-)

Update: account got verified after I responded asking if they wanted more documentation and what was wrong. Seems very odd, maybe the image I sent was too big? Was around 4mb.

lol, they don't owe you any reason under GDPR.

Doesn't it depend if they store the reason or not? If they make a decision at the time without storing anything then they wouldn't have to give me it. However if they stored the reason in a database etc then I believe they would.

Anyway after an email they activated my account :-)

Clouvider · July 5

They may store the vague reason, or not at all. They don't need to produce any data for you under GDPR - so they won't have to explain it at all.

deank · July 5

Hetzner, shattering fragile ego of millennials since 1997.

Jarry · July 5

Not sure where Hetzner is incorporated and what rules/laws are there, but where I live, if someone is making business by publicly offering his services, he is not allowed to pick whom is he going to serve and whom not.

If you come to pub, headwaiter can not send you out just because he thinks you want to drink but you have no intention to pay your bill afterwards. If he ever tried, it could be taken to court and he would loose badly. He may do it only if he has very good reason for it (and is able to prove it beyond any reasonable doubt). Just supposal is no such a reason...

I'm surprise so many vps/web-hosters simply deny service to potential customers without giving any (or just very vague) reason for it...

Just my 2¢...

deank · July 5

They are in Germany.

If you hate their policy, sue them. Simple as that.

P.S. All webhosts I've seen (Since 1998) have had the right to refuse clients for whatever reasons.

lion · July 5

I love how people here jump to conclusions and display them here as "facts" because they feel offended

mksh · July 5

@Jarry said:
Not sure where Hetzner is incorporated and what rules/laws are there, but where I live, if someone is making business by publicly offering his services, he is not allowed to pick whom is he going to serve and whom not.

If you come to pub, headwaiter can not send you out just because he thinks you want to drink but you have no intention to pay your bill afterwards. If he ever tried, it could be taken to court and he would loose badly. He may do it only if he has very good reason for it (and is able to prove it beyond any reasonable doubt). Just supposal is no such a reason...

You might be surprised who is actually making an offer to whom legally speaking. I am with @deank here just sue them and find out. I very much doubt you'd get anywhere.

Falzo · July 5

mksh said: You might be surprised who is actually making an offer to whom legally speaking.

so much this! finally someone who knows what an "invitatio ad offerendum" really is ;-)

willie · July 5

Jarry said: I'm surprise so many vps/web-hosters simply deny service to potential customers without giving any (or just very vague) reason for it...

In fact they often don't know the reason. They put the transaction data into an opaque statistical model, a number comes out the other end, and if the number is above some risk threshold they decided, they decline the purchase and that's that.

There is a book about this called "Weapons of Math Destruction" which describes various horrible consequences of this for people when applied to higher-impact areas like job applicant screening. But for vps hosting, meh.

salmon · July 5

@Clouvider said:
They may store the vague reason, or not at all. They don't need to produce any data for you under GDPR - so they won't have to explain it at all.

Unsure what you mean that they don't have to produce any information under the GDPR. Any personal information they stored can be requested by the data subject, this is called Right of access: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/individual-rights/right-of-access/

However, I'm not sure they store any 'personal data' once you get denied access as it lets you try to open account immediately after with the same email and details.

Anyway my account was authorized after sending them an email, so I'm happy as the pricing for the specs is extremely good. NVMe, 20tb bandwidth, 4GB ram for an amazing price.

salmon · July 5

@deank said:
Hetzner, shattering fragile ego of millennials since 1997.

You seem to enjoy people getting rejected from VPS providers. Do you get a kick out of it?

deank · July 5

Of course, I do.

salmon · July 5

@deank said:
Of course, I do.

aha :-) have you tried Hetzner? Very impressed with the VPS performance for the price on initial testing.

deank · July 5

I am not a consumer.

torrbox · July 5

It's a general problem. I have been rejected by a few places for technicalities or no reason stated and they all don't care about you and won't change their decision no matter what. You could offer to visit Hetzner in person and pay a 1k cash deposit, but they won't accept you because fuck you. It's their rules. That's why.

Even though I think it's super cringy and unwise (the value of a business relationship probably exceeds the cost of an extended verification for the few who really really want a server), it's best to just move on.

Hetzner_OL · July 6

Hi LET readers, Sorry for not responding earlier. I can't always check LET every day. I will try to respond to as many comments as possible. Forgive me if I miss anyone's questions/criticisms.

It may sound terrible, but a server has the potential to cause a great deal of damage in the wrong hands, just like a controlled substance or a weapon. It's our responsibility to help protect the community, and we take this very seriously.

The GDPR, to my knowledge, does not include any provisions that companies are legally required to state why they deny a potential customer service. You can make a request with our data protection officier for any information that we have, but I imagine it would be very little if you were a customer who was denied an account. This information would not include the details of why you were rejected. But it might include some score from the risk assessment software that we use in the first level of our process. The rest of the assesment is done manually by our staff. We don't record the team members's thought process. Their ultimate decision of whether your information looked fake or legitimate would be marked. (But I am not sure if they use those particular words in their notes.) To my knowledge, they do not note the cause for their decision. The email to our data protection officer is [email protected]

Any IDs we use for the authentication process are immediately deleted after we confirm your ID. The rest of your customer information is kept in accordance with our policy listed here: https://www.hetzner.com/rechtliches/datenschutz/ (See "Registration data".)

Please understand that the vast majority of orders are rejected. For every 100 orders where we ask for additional ID, we don't receive any response for 90 of those. It would be a waste of resources to provide reasons for all 100 cases. But we do not provide details on purpose. In the past, when we did provide details, it lead to scammers/spammers fixing the small problem. Then they would abuse the servers. In the new system (which is indeed non-transparent) we have much, much less abuse.

There are many things that could lead to an order raising flags as a false positive. My colleague joked with me the other day that the name of my hometown, Niceville, might even look suspicious despite the fact that it's a real place. Even when I still lived in the US, I had orders rejected because of this. But I was always able to clear the matter up by calling the company and speaking to a support representative.

The truth of the matter is that real people who are rejected are 1) capable about thinking why they are rejected 2) fixing that information 3) or providing us a logical explanation for why their information might look suspicious.

But even then, there might still be a very small number of false positives. So if you're rejected multiple times, we assume that you will be upset. We know we have lost your business. But we accept that. But as @torrbox says, "it's best to just move on".

We understand that our non-transparent process is frustrating. For that we are sorry. We truly do not mean to cause offense to anyone. --Katie, Marketing

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