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    Are E-Mail bombs considered SPAM?
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    Are E-Mail bombs considered SPAM?

    randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    Let's assume person A wants to annoy person B by sending a ridiculous amount of E-mail. Perhaps thousands per day!

    Since this is an E-Mai list of 1 address, and so there is 0 chance the mail could come end up getting to a SPAM trap, I imagine it would be unlikely to cause a problem for SPAM lists.

    Are there any risks or other possible implications for sending such a large volume of mail?

    Can a host safely allow such activity on their server without risk of getting black/spamlisted or have their IP reputation harmed?

    Comments

    • @randvegeta said:
      Let's assume person A wants to annoy person B by sending a ridiculous amount of E-mail. Perhaps thousands per day!

      Since this is an E-Mai list of 1 address, and so there is 0 chance the mail could come end up getting to a SPAM trap, I imagine it would be unlikely to cause a problem for SPAM lists.

      Are there any risks or other possible implications for sending such a large volume of mail?

      Can a host safely allow such activity on their server without risk of getting black/spamlisted or have their IP reputation harmed?

      don't do it you will be listed on spamhaus and the like found this out the hard way when I started cubedata and got notifications the ip's was blacklisted.

      CubeData FraudRecord Module: https://cubedata.net/fraudrecord OpenNebula module: https://cubedata.net/opennebula now for blesta & whmcs

    • jarjar Provider
      edited October 2016

      Yes to subject, no to question in last sentence. If anyone did this through MXroute I would slap them so hard they would taste their breakfast again.

    • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

      @timnboys and @jarland,

      How did spamhaus come to determining the server was being used for spam?

      More importantly, how can this be distinguished from regular e-mail notifications?

      As far as I know, there is no reporting mechanism for SPAMHAUS or other large lists and in the absence of mass mailing, how would the IP make it's way to a spam list or other blacklist?

    • jarjar Provider

      Who knows how the recipient is going to report it? Could be spamcop, could just be reduced IP reputation on the recipient server (which, let's face it, 9/10 is gmail).

      Just don't. Don't do it, don't allow it.

    • randvegeta said: Are there any risks

      With only person A and person B involved, it sounds likely that person B might know person A and find out where they live. Could be a risk right there. IP reputation might be the least of your worries.

      Thanked by 1impossiblystupid
    • randvegeta said: Let's assume person A wants to annoy person B by sending a ridiculous amount of E-mail. Perhaps thousands per day!

      Are you person A or person B in this case?

      For LET support, please visit the interim support desk.

    • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

      @Ole_Juul

      This is not me, but someone asking if they can (either on my network, or on their own servers..). At first I thought it should probably not have much affect but it got me thinking about it so I came here to see if I could find out more.

      And yes, person A and B 'know' each other but I doubt that would be any issue in the 'real world'.

      @jarland, your first answer was 'yes' (to subject). Is this a fact? If all an email needs to do to be considered spam is be 'unsolicited', that would make most 'legit' emails spam since a lot of mails are unsolicited. Mail bombing, in my mind, sounds very much like calling ones phone continuously or indeed sending good old fashioned post-mail in vast quantities. If a law is being broken, surely it would be one of harassment, rather than SPAM or other electronic crime. No?

    • jarjar Provider
      edited October 2016

      I can't imagine a scenario where you would defend a network traffic flood of any kind, especially one that results in causing problems for the recipient that last longer than the attack. Who even cares about what's legal and what blacklists you might end up on at that point?

      Thanked by 1impossiblystupid
    • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

      raindog308 said: Are you person A or person B in this case?

      In this case I am neither. Though I have been person B in the past on several occasions. Though technically it was not personally directed at me, but one of our ticketing systems. The person sending me all the junk mail amazingly successfully filled in our captcha every single time a message came through. We block the source IPs our selves in such situations but eventually they get hold of new IPs and start over. Wonder how they are automating the captchas! Or maybe they are wasting their own time filling it out?

      In this case, person A is a an acquaintance (business associate) who came up with the idea and asked me specifically about the technicalities.

    • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

      jarland said: Are you that much of a shithost?

      SPAM is banned from our network and we are in the midst of implementing a SPAM filter/firewall that protects our entire network. Mainly this is to stop our own IPs from being used in potentially compromised servers or indeed from spammers buying and abusing themselves directly.

      So this is not a general acceptance or tolerance of spam.

      In this particular instance, I personally know person A, who has genuine grievances with person B (who I don't know). I am currently NOT hosting person A but he had asked me what the implications were if he were do do such a thing. The fact that I know him and his personal situation plays a factor in why I sympathise with the guy.

      Obviously for third party strangers, this would be a big NO NO, even if the risk was nil.

    • @randvegeta said:
      If a law is being broken, surely it would be one of harassment, rather than SPAM or other electronic crime. No?

      In some jurisdictions harassment is a criminal offence, complete with jail time and/or restraining orders.

      Ethically I think this still falls under the accepted definition of spam, although not technically a mailing list. Still, in some jurisdictions the law is such that it is not whether the recipient is on a mailing list but whether the mail is unsolicited. Further, thousands of mails a day to one person to "annoy" them could also fall under the definition of a DOS attack, which can also have legal implications.

      Really, from any point of view this just seems like a bad idea.

    • jarjar Provider

      randvegeta said: In this case, person A is a an acquaintance (business associate) who came up with the idea and asked me specifically about the technicalities.

      I edited my above post, I have to be nicer. My apologies, I thought you were looking for validation that this is okay. It definitely isn't. I'm not a lawyer though so I dunno on the other stuff. But I've been person B and it sucks, especially on Gmail because they blocked ME from receiving legitimate email for being flooded, but they wouldn't block the senders.

    • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

      JustAMacUser said: whether the mail is unsolicited. Further, thousands of mails a day to one person to "annoy" them could also fall under the definition of a DOS attack, which can also have legal implications.

      Really, from any point of view this just seems like a bad idea.

      Most mail is actually unsolicited so I think just being unsolicited is not sufficient to be considered spam. Indeed the purpose is to annoy and to waste time, so yes I guess it is a a form of DOS and indeed there may be legal implications. But that is not the concern here since we all know that the chances of any legal action being taken is slim to none.

      jarland said: I edited my above post, I have to be nicer. My apologies, I thought you were looking for validation that this is okay. It definitely isn't. I'm not a lawyer though so I dunno on the other stuff. But I've been person B and it sucks, especially on Gmail because they blocked ME from receiving legitimate email for being flooded, but they wouldn't block the senders.

      Apology accepted. As you have also been in the position of person B, you know how annoying AND effective it can be.

      I don't want to get into too much details here but in the case of my 'friend' (person A), he has had a significant sum of money effectively stolen from him by person B. There is of course the legal route person A can choose but this costs time, money and there is no guarantee of winning. Person A and B are also in different legal jurisdictions, and the amounts are not really SO large to be worth fighting over, but large enough to be pissed off over (a few K). My understanding of the situation is that person B is either a crook, or a negligent douche-bag who doesn't take responsibility. In either case, person A has lost out financially, and this idea is just a simple (mostly harmless) act of 'revenge'.

      As my 'friend' (he's not a technical person, but I am), I am currently just offering him advice and depending on the risk factor, I may considering helping him out. But I'm not going to do anything to the detriment of my own businesses/clients, and I'm certainly not doing this for money or financial gain. Just good old fashioned REVENGE.

      Thanked by 1jar
    • jarjar Provider

      Well if it's legitimate revenge... pay in bitcoin and don't use your IP space.

    • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

      jarland said: Well if it's legitimate revenge... pay in bitcoin and don't use your IP space.

      Gotta love you @jarland..
      SPAM = No
      SPAM hosting = Shithost
      Revenge = Better use BTC and some other IP space (as long as it's legit)

      Love it.

      Thanked by 2jar sin
    • jarjar Provider

      @randvegeta said:

      jarland said: Well if it's legitimate revenge... pay in bitcoin and don't use your IP space.

      Gotta love you @jarland..
      SPAM = No
      SPAM hosting = Shithost
      Revenge = Better use BTC and some other IP space (as long as it's legit)

      Love it.

      Some days you realize you're the only one playing by the rules and you do what you gotta do ;)

      Thanked by 1luissousa
    • randvegeta said: Most mail is actually unsolicited so I think just being unsolicited is not sufficient to be considered spam

      Of course. I'm not a lawyer but I have skimmed the laws in my jurisdiction and really it comes down to existing relationships and purposes of the email (based on the body/content, not the sender's intentions). There are exemptions for transactional email (digital receipts) and certain types of organizations (such as registered non-profits). In the situation you describe, such mail would be unsolicited. But the laws in your land will likely vary.

      Nevertheless, at the end of the day, my experience tells me that adding fuel to the fire rarely progresses the situation in a positive manner. Sometimes it's better to just cut losses and walk away.

    • randvegeta said: my 'friend' (person A), he has had a significant sum of money effectively stolen from him by person B.

      I live on a very low income. A few years back I had $50,000 (savings) stolen by a friend. If you're suggesting that I can get my money back by sending 1000s of emails to that fellow, I will be very interested in the details.

      PS: If your friend is interested in revenge, you can tell him that I think he is immature and pathetic.

    • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

      Ole_Juul said: PS: If your friend is interested in revenge, you can tell him that I think he is immature and pathetic.

      Pathetic? Presumably you consider all lawsuits and legal cases that seek monetary compensation as also pathetic? After-all, what is the point of suing if there is no financial gain for the complainant or financial loss for the defendant.

      This is just a cheaper form of 'justice'.

      $50k stolen is no small sum of money. But if sending 'revenge' mail to said person may result in you getting the money back, would that not make you pathetic too?

      As for being immature..... what would you prefer? Brake person B's legs?

    • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

      JustAMacUser said: Nevertheless, at the end of the day, my experience tells me that adding fuel to the fire rarely progresses the situation in a positive manner. Sometimes it's better to just cut losses and walk away.

      Person A has no expectation of 'settlement'. The idea is to make person B think twice before doing what he did to person A to some other poor fella.

      Some people deliberately try and waste scammer's times. This is a sort of revenge too. It's kind of fun (and funny) and serves a greater good by deterring scammers from trying their luck on other targets. Without a deterrent, why would they stop their actions. In this case, person B is a scammer and will likely continue to try and scam people again and again (or so I am led to believe). There is a greater good beyond the self-serving satisfaction of one man's revenge.

    • jarjar Provider

      randvegeta said: $50k stolen is no small sum of money. But if sending 'revenge' mail to said person may result in you getting the money back, would that not make you pathetic too?

      I can't see that happening, but a little satisfaction in ruining the day of a scammer? I certainly wouldn't shed a tear for them.

      Thanked by 1randvegeta
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