Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Subscribe to our newsletter

Advertise on LowEndTalk.com

Latest LowEndBox Offers

    PSA: PayPal policy changes
    New on LowEndTalk? Please read our 'Community Rules' by clicking on it in the right menu!

    PSA: PayPal policy changes

    joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

    PayPal is apparently changing their policies... and one change struck me as potentially problematic for providers using WHMCS:

    At all of your points of sale (in whatever form):

    a) you shall not dissuade or inhibit your customers from using PayPal; and

    b) if you enable your customers to pay you with PayPal, you shall treat PayPal’s payment mark at least at par with other payment methods offered.

    Given WHMCS' approach of representing payment options on invoices as a dropdown, it's possible that having a provider other than PayPal as the default option could run afoul of this policy...

    Probably worth looking into.

    Thanked by 2GCat BeardyUnixGuy
    «1

    Comments

    • jarjar Provider
      edited September 2016

      Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully, they won't go for the worst interpretation of the rule.

    • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

      @jarland said:
      Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully, they won't go for the worst interpretation of the rule.

      I'd imagine it'll be the usual approach - ignore it in most cases, and only enforce it in cases where PayPal really wants to find a way to throw out a merchant that's technically operating within the ToS.

    • Oh good another reason I should stop accepting PayPal, so let's see Stripe now?

      My comments are mine and mine alone, and do not reflect the opinion of my business

    • jiggawattzjiggawattz Member
      edited September 2016

      These are the same terms that Visa, MasterCard, et al have had for decades...

      Nothing new. Same ole shit. You can't charge more for one payment method over another... you can't give preferential treatment to one payment method over another...

      There's no nefarious plot here. PayPal is just explicitly bringing its terms in line with what is standard in the industry.

    • Our local Payment gateways are insanely overpriced and Both PP/Stripe doesn't support merchants here. (PP was having some issues with regulations)

      Lucky for us, one of our local Startup now offers Payment gateway solution and seems like everyone is converting to them. In ~20 days, they've passed one million transactions in value. (Very small yet a good step)

      Still waiting Stripe to add their support. :(

      Thanked by 1GCat

      time wasters please dont comment as we are a serious buyer
      Programmer trying to do Logo Designs

    • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider
      edited September 2016

      @GCat said:
      Oh good another reason I should stop accepting PayPal, so let's see Stripe now?

      -snip for incorrect info-

      OT: How does this affect WHMCS merchants? It says "at least at par", as long as you're not favoring other methods to clients or forcing them to use other methods for a lower price, it shouldn't cause any problems from what I understand?

    • jarjar Provider

      MikeA said: Stripe is so shitty, I can't even describe how much of a shitty situation I've had with them

      Weird. Not only have I always had a great experience with them, but their support has been amazing and incredibly fast.

      Thanked by 1GCat
    • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

      MikeA said: OT: How does this affect WHMCS merchants? It says "at least at par", as long as you're not favoring other methods to clients or forcing them to use other methods for a lower price, it shouldn't cause any problems from what I understand?

      By default, WHMCS only shows the default payment method on an invoice, and the alternative options are listed in a dropdown. If PayPal sufficiently dislikes you and they are only listed in the alternative options, a creative lawyer could interpret that as "favouring other methods".

      Thanked by 2GCat MikeA
    • MikeA said: ignoring my tickets, e-mails, and Tweets.

      They've been quick to response. Longest I've waited is 2 days. (I've used them for my client projects)

      time wasters please dont comment as we are a serious buyer
      Programmer trying to do Logo Designs

    • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider
      edited September 2016

      @jarland said:

      MikeA said: Stripe is so shitty, I can't even describe how much of a shitty situation I've had with them

      Weird. Not only have I always had a great experience with them, but their support has been amazing and incredibly fast.

      -snip for incorrect info-

    • @joepie91 said:

      MikeA said: OT: How does this affect WHMCS merchants? It says "at least at par", as long as you're not favoring other methods to clients or forcing them to use other methods for a lower price, it shouldn't cause any problems from what I understand?

      By default, WHMCS only shows the default payment method on an invoice, and the alternative options are listed in a dropdown. If PayPal sufficiently dislikes you and they are only listed in the alternative options, a creative lawyer could interpret that as "favouring other methods".

      aka "PayPal is greedy"

      My comments are mine and mine alone, and do not reflect the opinion of my business

    • LandofnoneLandofnone Member
      edited September 2016

      @GCat said:
      Oh good another reason I should stop accepting PayPal, so let's see Stripe now?

      Squareup?

    • Authorize.net?

      How to clean up a questionable reputation: throw the kids some BF/CM offers.

    • @MikeA said:

      I assumed maybe the huge half year verification delay was because I'm in the U.S. and they're a non-U.S. company, but I wouldn't know.

      Doesn't Stripe operate from San Francisco now?

    • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider
      edited September 2016

      @busbr said:

      @MikeA said:

      I assumed maybe the huge half year verification delay was because I'm in the U.S. and they're a non-U.S. company, but I wouldn't know.

      Doesn't Stripe operate from San Francisco now?

      Oh, that's weird. I've always thought that they were in London.

      Edit: Wow, I'm retarded! I was referring to Skrill not Stripe. Got the two confused, I feel bad now.

    • jarjar Provider

      MikeA said: I was referring to Skrill not Stripe

      In that case you're in for a treat. Stripe is great :)

    • SplitIceSplitIce Member, Provider

      It could even be argued that different sizes of buttons, or center, or above the fold placement could be preferential. It may not even just be the button, but any mention of Paypal.

      Although in all likelihood its as @joepie91 said, unlikely to be enforced unless they are looking for an excuse. I wouldn't worry.

      X4B - DDoS Protection: Affordable DDoS protection including Layer 7 mitigation with PoPs in the US, EU and Asia.
      Latest Offer: $14 in Asia DDoS mitigation
    • shovenoseshovenose Member, Provider
      edited September 2016

      I had a bunch of charge backs on stripe a few years ago from a fraud client. At first i got really angry because they charged me a bunch of fees and took back the money. Well, a few months later I happened to glance at my phone while trying to get a door off a truck at pick-n-pull and got so excited and surprised because they gave back almost all my money that I dropped the door on my foot. So, I think they are pretty good :) I do wish they had phone support though.

      Thanked by 1netomx
    • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

      It's most likely their term for: if you don't charge for taking payments by other payment methods, you cannot charge for PayPal, in other words you cannot treat PayPal any different than other payment method. It's not about if the position will be on the left, right or centre of even a drop down.

      Thanked by 2MikeA tux

      Clouvider Leading UK Cloud Hosting solution provider || UK Dedicated Servers Sale || Tasty KVM Slices || Latest LET Offer

      Web hosting in Cloud | SSD & SAS True Cloud VPS on OnApp | Private Cloud | Dedicated Servers | Colocation | Managed Services

    • ricardoricardo Member
      edited September 2016

      What Clouvider says makes the most sense. Often you'll see merchants offering paypal but adding the PayPal fees on top. Sometimes the same with debit or other payment methods, but if so, always with Paypal.

      Obviously when the user has a choice, he may prefer the cheaper version and ultimately Paypal want their cut.

      Thanked by 1netomx
    • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider
      edited September 2016

      @Clouvider said:
      It's most likely their term for: if you don't charge for taking payments by other payment methods, you cannot charge for PayPal, in other words you cannot treat PayPal any different than other payment method. It's not about if the position will be on the left, right or centre of even a drop down.

      @ricardo said:
      What Clouvider says makes the most sense. Often you'll see merchants offering paypal but adding the PayPal fees on top. Sometimes the same with debit or other payment methods, but if so, always with Paypal.

      Obviously when the user has a choice, he may prefer the cheaper version and ultimately Paypal want their cut.

      This was brought up on IRC as well. There's two problems with that, however:

      1. Even if that were the motivation (and it may very well be), that doesn't matter for what the ToS say, and what is or isn't enforceable. It's the terms in the ToS that you agree with, not their underlying intentions.
      2. The terms don't actually prohibit PayPal-specific surcharges:

      You agree that you will only surcharge for the use of PayPal in compliance with any law applicable to you. You further agree that if you do surcharge a buyer, you, and not PayPal, will inform the buyer of the requested charge.

    • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

      @joepie91 said:

      This was brought up on IRC as well. There's two problems with that, however:

      1. Even if that were the motivation (and it may very well be), that doesn't matter for what the ToS say, and what is or isn't enforceable. It's the terms in the ToS that you agree with, not their underlying intentions.
      2. The terms don't actually prohibit PayPal-specific surcharges:

      You agree that you will only surcharge for the use of PayPal in compliance with any law applicable to you. You further agree that if you do surcharge a buyer, you, and not PayPal, will inform the buyer of the requested charge.

      Yeah, it does allow PayPal specific surcharges, but only when you charge for the other payment methods, otherwise you don't treat PayPal at par with them.

      That's at least how I understand it.

      Clouvider Leading UK Cloud Hosting solution provider || UK Dedicated Servers Sale || Tasty KVM Slices || Latest LET Offer

      Web hosting in Cloud | SSD & SAS True Cloud VPS on OnApp | Private Cloud | Dedicated Servers | Colocation | Managed Services

    • Fair point, obviously Paypal have seen a certain kind of prevalent behaviour to state their new policy. I come across a lot of payment screens and the closest I've seen to 'not par' is tucking away the Paypal option so it's less visible in the process flow than other payment methods. The thing I most often see is the seller fees added on to the price.

      I suppose WHMCS falls afoul of 'inhibiting' payments, as their invoicing when offering subscriptions/one-off payment buttons after completing an order invariably leads you to the subscription offering. I have to do the slightly tedious thing or clicking on the invoices tab and going through that way.

    • Another nail hammered in the coffin of Paypal. At the same time competitors trying to get more and more clients which tired of a lot problems with paypal. I hope in 2-3 years some game-changer company will be here, and paypal will start to change too to good side.

      Thanked by 1Turner
    • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

      Clouvider said: Yeah, it does allow PayPal specific surcharges, but only when you charge for the other payment methods, otherwise you don't treat PayPal at par with them.

      That's at least how I understand it.

      Hmm. That's quite ambiguous, actually... they state that you should treat PayPal on par (without going into details), but then implicitly allow "surcharging for the use of PayPal", which implies that surcharging just for PayPal is fine.

      I'm guessing that lawyers are going to have a field day with this...

    • time4vpstime4vps Member, Host Rep

      desperand said: I hope in 2-3 years some game-changer company will be here

      No. PayPal is to tightly integrated in internet payment providers ecosystem and they are to damn big. They will not go anywhere at least for a decade.

      Time4VPS - time for your personal server

    • @time4vps said:

      desperand said: I hope in 2-3 years some game-changer company will be here

      No. PayPal is to tightly integrated in internet payment providers ecosystem and they are to damn big. They will not go anywhere at least for a decade.

      Shit happens, Sod's law will fuck us or them over in due time.

    • Hopefully this stops all those additional payment fees, "Buy with PayPal, pay an extra 5%", "Buy with WorldPay/SagePay and pay 0% additionally"

      Security Consultant

    • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

      @eastonch said:
      Hopefully this stops all those additional payment fees, "Buy with PayPal, pay an extra 5%", "Buy with WorldPay/SagePay and pay 0% additionally"

      You'll now likely just pay 5% extra across the board.

      Thanked by 2hostnoob netomx
    • jhjh Member
      edited September 2016

      Saw this. I was very close to dropping Paypal due to the exorbitant fees. The moment it arrived, I dropped it. Remember, the stated fees come with an extra 1% for "cross border" transactions, making the fees as high as 4.4% for low volume.

      eastonch said: Hopefully this stops all those additional payment fees, "Buy with PayPal, pay an extra 5%", "Buy with WorldPay/SagePay and pay 0% additionally"

      I know it's frustrating as a customer - but the main (only?) reason service providers offer Paypal is because it saves the customer a few seconds at checkout. As a service provider, I feel like they should pay the difference if they are so keen to save those few seconds.

      Greetings of the day!!!!

    • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

      jh said: but the main (only?) reason service providers offer Paypal is because it saves the customer a few seconds at checkout.

      Unfortunately, it's not that simple. As somebody who lives in the Netherlands - where creditcards are far from common - my online payment options basically consist of Bitcoin, PayPal, and iDeal. That's it. The latter is NL-specific, and only supported by a few payment processors that all have their own share of problems.

      Thanked by 1netomx
    • Their real money maker is the poor exchange rate they offer, they make another couple/few percent on that.

      Thanked by 2netomx maverickp
    • jarjar Provider

      PayPal makes me really happy and we work well together. They take what I consider to be a reasonable fee considering how much more business I get from using a major and well liked payment processor among my users. They're really good to me and I'd buy my account executive a beer any day.

      Just figured I'd add some positivity to the mix :)

    • joepie91 said: Unfortunately, it's not that simple. As somebody who lives in the Netherlands - where creditcards are far from common - my online payment options basically consist of Bitcoin, PayPal, and iDeal. That's it. The latter is NL-specific, and only supported by a few payment processors that all have their own share of problems.

      So what do you do when you buy groceries? Is cash widely used?

      What about GoCardless? They have an EU option (I know waiting a few days to get acceptance wouldn't work for LET hosts.. I just want to understand the problem!)

      Greetings of the day!!!!

    • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

      jh said: So what do you do when you buy groceries? Is cash widely used?

      We have bank/ATM cards, they're just not creditcards (nor do they have a number that you can pay with). This is what a typical Dutch bank card looks like:

      It contains just the name and the IBAN, and the card is essentially useless without knowing the PIN. For online payments, we use iDeal, which is an e-commerce payment system that integrates directly with the e-banking system of your own bank. Payments are usually authorized with something like this:

      ... and are executed as SEPA transactions straight into the recipient's bank account. A similar EU-wide system is due to be rolled out somewhere in 2017, if I'm not mistaken.

      Of course, cash is still used frequently as well.

      What about GoCardless? They have an EU option (I know waiting a few days to get acceptance wouldn't work for LET hosts.. I just want to understand the problem!)

      Not every customer will necessarily want recurring payments to be handled automatically, especially if they're on a tight budget. There may also be other reasons why people don't use them - I'm not a hosting provider, so I would have no idea about those :)

      Thanked by 1jh
    • @joepie91 said:

      @eastonch said:
      Hopefully this stops all those additional payment fees, "Buy with PayPal, pay an extra 5%", "Buy with WorldPay/SagePay and pay 0% additionally"

      You'll now likely just pay 5% extra across the board.

      Yep this is how it works.

      In the UK, women used to get cheaper car insurance than men, and people complained, so they changed the rules that they couldn't give different prices based on gender.

      But instead of reducing the price for men, they just increased the price for women to be leve with men so they make more money. Was a nice win for them.

      Thanked by 1inthecloudblog

      Favourite host in general: Ramnode (affiliate link)
      Favourite host for hourly billing/custom ISOs: Vultr ($50 free credit for new accounts, affiliate link)

    • @jiggawattz said:
      These are the same terms that Visa, MasterCard, et al have had for decades...

      Nothing new. Same ole shit. You can't charge more for one payment method over another... you can't give preferential treatment to one payment method over another...

      There's no nefarious plot here. PayPal is just explicitly bringing its terms in line with what is standard in the industry.

      quoting the only correct post here - these kinds of policies have existed as long as payment processors have, and for obvious reason - no one wants to give you access to their payment network but be forced to take second billing

      Contractually bound by a verbal non-disclosure agreement

    • @joepie91 interesting! great for NL payments but what a PITA for travelling, online etc. In France, cards are co-branded as Carte Bleue and Visa/MC which is much better.

      Greetings of the day!!!!

    • I know recently OVH dropped their PayPal fee, so I'm wondering if they was spoken to, I can imagine OVH put quite a bit through PayPal so I'm not surprised.

    • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

      jh said: In France, cards are co-branded as Carte Bleue and Visa/MC which is much better.

      Perhaps, perhaps not. It also means that we don't get the massive security risks of the creditcard system :)

    • jiggawattzjiggawattz Member
      edited September 2016

      joepie91 said:

      Hmm. That's quite ambiguous, actually... they state that you should treat PayPal on par (without going into details), but then implicitly allow "surcharging for the use of PayPal", which implies that surcharging just for PayPal is fine.

      I'm guessing that lawyers are going to have a field day with this...

      No, they're not.

      These are the same written terms that credit card companies have in their agreements with merchants. The purpose is to prevent a merchant from favoring one payment method over another (e.g., with a "PayPal" fee.) Merchants have been honoring these same terms with credit card companies for decade(s) - not really any issues.

      Terms like these are always somewhat ambiguous - in every kind of legalese agreement, in every industry. This is not unique to PayPal, and it's not an indication of some nefarious plot. Remember: merchants are PayPal's customers too and the industry is competitive with Stripe, Bitcoin, WePay and countless other new payment methods.

    • PayPal scared by Bitcoin, Many providers charge fees for PayPal and did not charge fees for bitcoin which create problem for PayPal. Revenue loss.


      Cheap $9/Year Hosting(US/UK/Canada/ES) - Cheap Windows VPS Hosting from Dewlance & Linux Xen VPS at low price. PreMadeKb.com WHMCS/Blesta Readymade Knowledgebase
    • NekkiNekki Moderator

      DewlanceVPS said: PayPal scared by Bitcoin, Many providers charge fees for PayPal and did not charge fees for bitcoin which create problem for PayPal. Revenue loss.

      Do you really think Bitcoin is being widely used enough for Paypal to be worried right now? Also, isn't there nearly always a fee paid somewhere along the line when you use Bitcoin?

    • @DewlanceVPS said:
      PayPal scared by Bitcoin, Many providers charge fees for PayPal and did not charge fees for bitcoin which create problem for PayPal. Revenue loss.


      Paypal is about as scared of Bitcoin as legitimate hosting providers are scared of DewLanceVPS

      Contractually bound by a verbal non-disclosure agreement

    • As a customer, PayPal is super convenient. If you don't support it, there is a high chance I'm going to be too lazy to get my credit card out of my wallet.

    • @daily said:
      As a customer, PayPal is super convenient. If you don't support it, there is a high chance I'm going to be too lazy to get my credit card out of my wallet.

      gotta be honest, same for me, and 100x more true when it comes to places I buy from where my purchases are impulse-buys, like Bandcamp

      Contractually bound by a verbal non-disclosure agreement

    • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider
      edited September 2016

      @jarland said:
      PayPal makes me really happy and we work well together. They take what I consider to be a reasonable fee considering how much more business I get from using a major and well liked payment processor among my users. They're really good to me and I'd buy my account executive a beer any day.

      Just figured I'd add some positivity to the mix :)

      Same. I've always loved PayPal. Phone support is super fast/friendly.

      Thanked by 1MikePT
    • This ought to be good for a $2.50 class action settlement check in about 10 years.

      Thanked by 1netomx

      For LET support, please visit the interim support desk.

    • WilliamWilliam Member, Provider
      edited September 2016

      joepie91 said: Given WHMCS' approach of representing payment options on invoices as a dropdown, it's possible that having a provider other than PayPal as the default option could run afoul of this policy...

      Same as the payment gateway charge (which is forbidden in the US but allowed inside the EU) this rule is very likely not enforceable inside the EU even if they wanted to.

      joepie91 said: Unfortunately, it's not that simple. As somebody who lives in the Netherlands - where creditcards are far from common - my online payment options basically consist of Bitcoin, PayPal, and iDeal. That's it. The latter is NL-specific, and only supported by a few payment processors that all have their own share of problems.

      Despite possibly not being common with locals (no idea) i had no acceptance issues with CCs in NL, your banks are probably just not handing them out by default on a debit (UK and alike) or credit (AT, DE, SE) system so your local system (which is like our Maestro and works on ATMs and some payment gateways with our cards) is preference, plus it is probably near free as here.

      Not sure how integrated the NL system is but my Maestro card from Austria works fine here in Croatia as well as it does in Spain, Slovakia and Greece (and Germany, ironically worse), and the CC acceptance in Croatia is surprisingly high also. If you nowadays want to pay by CC inside the EU you'll likely get what you want with it rather simple.

    • I haven't used Paypal since a "software glitch" charged the same thing 14 times about a month ago at the same time. Directly state that payment cards issued by FDIC-insured banking institutions and only 1 Paypal card remains eligible.

      Since a contract is a legally enforceable set of agreements, if it's not enforceable, especially a material term but in some interpretations, any term, then the contract doesn't exist. Paypal's ToS haven't been actually fully enforceable for a long time and they're one missed integration clause away from being complete junk.

      It's not nefarious, it's attempting to be inclusive, because even American state laws vary so much that there's no singular ToS that can be fully enforceable in every jurisdiction because some clauses will necessarily contradict. The issue is when do they go too far? D. Nevada have already been rejecting mandatory arbitration. Non-bargained-for agreements are never going to stand up for long. For the longest time PP's link to their ToS was broken. If anyone has the time and energy to start a shitshow they can get at least some publicity.

      But not too many people do.

      Subversion? That's some sort of software, right?

    Sign In or Register to comment.