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PSA: PayPal policy changes
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PSA: PayPal policy changes

joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

PayPal is apparently changing their policies... and one change struck me as potentially problematic for providers using WHMCS:

At all of your points of sale (in whatever form):

a) you shall not dissuade or inhibit your customers from using PayPal; and

b) if you enable your customers to pay you with PayPal, you shall treat PayPal’s payment mark at least at par with other payment methods offered.

Given WHMCS' approach of representing payment options on invoices as a dropdown, it's possible that having a provider other than PayPal as the default option could run afoul of this policy...

Probably worth looking into.

Thanked by 2GCat BeardyUnixGuy
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Comments

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited September 2016

    Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully, they won't go for the worst interpretation of the rule.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @jarland said:
    Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully, they won't go for the worst interpretation of the rule.

    I'd imagine it'll be the usual approach - ignore it in most cases, and only enforce it in cases where PayPal really wants to find a way to throw out a merchant that's technically operating within the ToS.

  • Oh good another reason I should stop accepting PayPal, so let's see Stripe now?

  • jiggawattjiggawatt Member
    edited September 2016

    These are the same terms that Visa, MasterCard, et al have had for decades...

    Nothing new. Same ole shit. You can't charge more for one payment method over another... you can't give preferential treatment to one payment method over another...

    There's no nefarious plot here. PayPal is just explicitly bringing its terms in line with what is standard in the industry.

  • Our local Payment gateways are insanely overpriced and Both PP/Stripe doesn't support merchants here. (PP was having some issues with regulations)

    Lucky for us, one of our local Startup now offers Payment gateway solution and seems like everyone is converting to them. In ~20 days, they've passed one million transactions in value. (Very small yet a good step)

    Still waiting Stripe to add their support. :(

    Thanked by 1GCat
  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider
    edited September 2016

    @GCat said:
    Oh good another reason I should stop accepting PayPal, so let's see Stripe now?

    -snip for incorrect info-

    OT: How does this affect WHMCS merchants? It says "at least at par", as long as you're not favoring other methods to clients or forcing them to use other methods for a lower price, it shouldn't cause any problems from what I understand?

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    MikeA said: Stripe is so shitty, I can't even describe how much of a shitty situation I've had with them

    Weird. Not only have I always had a great experience with them, but their support has been amazing and incredibly fast.

    Thanked by 1GCat
  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    MikeA said: OT: How does this affect WHMCS merchants? It says "at least at par", as long as you're not favoring other methods to clients or forcing them to use other methods for a lower price, it shouldn't cause any problems from what I understand?

    By default, WHMCS only shows the default payment method on an invoice, and the alternative options are listed in a dropdown. If PayPal sufficiently dislikes you and they are only listed in the alternative options, a creative lawyer could interpret that as "favouring other methods".

    Thanked by 2GCat MikeA
  • MikeA said: ignoring my tickets, e-mails, and Tweets.

    They've been quick to response. Longest I've waited is 2 days. (I've used them for my client projects)

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider
    edited September 2016

    @jarland said:

    MikeA said: Stripe is so shitty, I can't even describe how much of a shitty situation I've had with them

    Weird. Not only have I always had a great experience with them, but their support has been amazing and incredibly fast.

    -snip for incorrect info-

  • @joepie91 said:

    MikeA said: OT: How does this affect WHMCS merchants? It says "at least at par", as long as you're not favoring other methods to clients or forcing them to use other methods for a lower price, it shouldn't cause any problems from what I understand?

    By default, WHMCS only shows the default payment method on an invoice, and the alternative options are listed in a dropdown. If PayPal sufficiently dislikes you and they are only listed in the alternative options, a creative lawyer could interpret that as "favouring other methods".

    aka "PayPal is greedy"

  • LandofnoneLandofnone Member
    edited September 2016

    @GCat said:
    Oh good another reason I should stop accepting PayPal, so let's see Stripe now?

    Squareup?

  • Authorize.net?

  • @MikeA said:

    I assumed maybe the huge half year verification delay was because I'm in the U.S. and they're a non-U.S. company, but I wouldn't know.

    Doesn't Stripe operate from San Francisco now?

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider
    edited September 2016

    @busbr said:

    @MikeA said:

    I assumed maybe the huge half year verification delay was because I'm in the U.S. and they're a non-U.S. company, but I wouldn't know.

    Doesn't Stripe operate from San Francisco now?

    Oh, that's weird. I've always thought that they were in London.

    Edit: Wow, I'm retarded! I was referring to Skrill not Stripe. Got the two confused, I feel bad now.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    MikeA said: I was referring to Skrill not Stripe

    In that case you're in for a treat. Stripe is great :)

  • SplitIceSplitIce Member, Host Rep

    It could even be argued that different sizes of buttons, or center, or above the fold placement could be preferential. It may not even just be the button, but any mention of Paypal.

    Although in all likelihood its as @joepie91 said, unlikely to be enforced unless they are looking for an excuse. I wouldn't worry.

  • shovenoseshovenose Member, Host Rep
    edited September 2016

    I had a bunch of charge backs on stripe a few years ago from a fraud client. At first i got really angry because they charged me a bunch of fees and took back the money. Well, a few months later I happened to glance at my phone while trying to get a door off a truck at pick-n-pull and got so excited and surprised because they gave back almost all my money that I dropped the door on my foot. So, I think they are pretty good :) I do wish they had phone support though.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    It's most likely their term for: if you don't charge for taking payments by other payment methods, you cannot charge for PayPal, in other words you cannot treat PayPal any different than other payment method. It's not about if the position will be on the left, right or centre of even a drop down.

    Thanked by 2MikeA tux
  • ricardoricardo Member
    edited September 2016

    What Clouvider says makes the most sense. Often you'll see merchants offering paypal but adding the PayPal fees on top. Sometimes the same with debit or other payment methods, but if so, always with Paypal.

    Obviously when the user has a choice, he may prefer the cheaper version and ultimately Paypal want their cut.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider
    edited September 2016

    @Clouvider said:
    It's most likely their term for: if you don't charge for taking payments by other payment methods, you cannot charge for PayPal, in other words you cannot treat PayPal any different than other payment method. It's not about if the position will be on the left, right or centre of even a drop down.

    @ricardo said:
    What Clouvider says makes the most sense. Often you'll see merchants offering paypal but adding the PayPal fees on top. Sometimes the same with debit or other payment methods, but if so, always with Paypal.

    Obviously when the user has a choice, he may prefer the cheaper version and ultimately Paypal want their cut.

    This was brought up on IRC as well. There's two problems with that, however:

    1. Even if that were the motivation (and it may very well be), that doesn't matter for what the ToS say, and what is or isn't enforceable. It's the terms in the ToS that you agree with, not their underlying intentions.
    2. The terms don't actually prohibit PayPal-specific surcharges:

    You agree that you will only surcharge for the use of PayPal in compliance with any law applicable to you. You further agree that if you do surcharge a buyer, you, and not PayPal, will inform the buyer of the requested charge.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @joepie91 said:

    This was brought up on IRC as well. There's two problems with that, however:

    1. Even if that were the motivation (and it may very well be), that doesn't matter for what the ToS say, and what is or isn't enforceable. It's the terms in the ToS that you agree with, not their underlying intentions.
    2. The terms don't actually prohibit PayPal-specific surcharges:

    You agree that you will only surcharge for the use of PayPal in compliance with any law applicable to you. You further agree that if you do surcharge a buyer, you, and not PayPal, will inform the buyer of the requested charge.

    Yeah, it does allow PayPal specific surcharges, but only when you charge for the other payment methods, otherwise you don't treat PayPal at par with them.

    That's at least how I understand it.

  • Fair point, obviously Paypal have seen a certain kind of prevalent behaviour to state their new policy. I come across a lot of payment screens and the closest I've seen to 'not par' is tucking away the Paypal option so it's less visible in the process flow than other payment methods. The thing I most often see is the seller fees added on to the price.

    I suppose WHMCS falls afoul of 'inhibiting' payments, as their invoicing when offering subscriptions/one-off payment buttons after completing an order invariably leads you to the subscription offering. I have to do the slightly tedious thing or clicking on the invoices tab and going through that way.

  • Another nail hammered in the coffin of Paypal. At the same time competitors trying to get more and more clients which tired of a lot problems with paypal. I hope in 2-3 years some game-changer company will be here, and paypal will start to change too to good side.

    Thanked by 1Turner
  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    Clouvider said: Yeah, it does allow PayPal specific surcharges, but only when you charge for the other payment methods, otherwise you don't treat PayPal at par with them.

    That's at least how I understand it.

    Hmm. That's quite ambiguous, actually... they state that you should treat PayPal on par (without going into details), but then implicitly allow "surcharging for the use of PayPal", which implies that surcharging just for PayPal is fine.

    I'm guessing that lawyers are going to have a field day with this...

  • time4vpstime4vps Member, Host Rep

    desperand said: I hope in 2-3 years some game-changer company will be here

    No. PayPal is to tightly integrated in internet payment providers ecosystem and they are to damn big. They will not go anywhere at least for a decade.

  • @time4vps said:

    desperand said: I hope in 2-3 years some game-changer company will be here

    No. PayPal is to tightly integrated in internet payment providers ecosystem and they are to damn big. They will not go anywhere at least for a decade.

    Shit happens, Sod's law will fuck us or them over in due time.

  • Hopefully this stops all those additional payment fees, "Buy with PayPal, pay an extra 5%", "Buy with WorldPay/SagePay and pay 0% additionally"

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @eastonch said:
    Hopefully this stops all those additional payment fees, "Buy with PayPal, pay an extra 5%", "Buy with WorldPay/SagePay and pay 0% additionally"

    You'll now likely just pay 5% extra across the board.

    Thanked by 2hostnoob netomx
  • jhjh Member
    edited September 2016

    Saw this. I was very close to dropping Paypal due to the exorbitant fees. The moment it arrived, I dropped it. Remember, the stated fees come with an extra 1% for "cross border" transactions, making the fees as high as 4.4% for low volume.

    eastonch said: Hopefully this stops all those additional payment fees, "Buy with PayPal, pay an extra 5%", "Buy with WorldPay/SagePay and pay 0% additionally"

    I know it's frustrating as a customer - but the main (only?) reason service providers offer Paypal is because it saves the customer a few seconds at checkout. As a service provider, I feel like they should pay the difference if they are so keen to save those few seconds.

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