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    BudgetNode.com (OP did not cancel Paypal subscription)
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    BudgetNode.com (OP did not cancel Paypal subscription)

    0ther6uy0ther6uy Member
    edited October 9 in General

    Hello all,

    I've been a long time user of BudgetNode. I've had several services through them, and never really had any issue. The ONLY issue I've ever had was with billing, and this last experience has forced me to move on.

    Their services have an option to auto-renew with PayPal. I canceled an annual service back in May, and a few days ago was charged the yearly amount again. Since it's canceled, and since I have no active services at BudgetNode, I contacted them requesting a refund, since I don't even have any active services to apply credit to.

    I was told they only add overages as credits.

    Just a heads up for those looking for offers. If you are considering using this service there are zero chances of you getting your money back in the event of anything going awry. I've been with them for years, but will not be any longer.

    Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    «1

    Comments

    • Did you cancel your PayPal subscription to them?

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • I did, after I saw that it was to blame.

      I even stated that in the ticket on BN's client site. Didn't make a difference..

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • NekkiNekki Member

      So it’s 100% your fault, you soft twat.

      Ffs, I thought we were past this level of shithousery.

    • I'm posting this for people who are considering providers. Not to disappoint you that the world hasn't made it to your levels of expectant operation. Good luck though.

      Thanked by 2easy receivedthanks
    • NekkiNekki Member

      No, you’re posting it because you have rage and you want to shithouse the provider.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • Not really shithousing a provider that doesn't return money that was paid for services that aren't active.

      Moreso letting the public know how things operate.

      Is that wrong?

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • NekkiNekki Member

      @0ther6uy said:
      Not really shithousing a provider that doesn't return money that was paid for services that aren't active.

      Moreso letting the public know how things operate.

      Is that wrong?

      Don’t make out this is altruism, you’re pissed off and this is you lashing out. It’s not healthy pal.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • Mic-haelMic-hael Member, Provider

      0ther6uy said: I'm posting this for people who are considering providers. Not to disappoint you that the world hasn't made it to your levels of expectant operation. Good luck though.

      This has very little to do with the Provider.
      In a lot of cases, you cannot say "X did not refund my paypal subscription that I did not cancel, beware!" when that is standard policy across hundreds of companies.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks

      SmallWeb | DirectAdmin Shared Hosting in London | Amsterdam | Melbourne | New York | Luxembourg | Los Angeles

    • I'm unsure as to where or how you are able to tell me my own motives,intentions, and even feelings for my own post. The post is pretty straight forward.

      I came here to tell others about an issue with a provider. This is the place for that. Making the community aware. You can see it your way (uh, shithousing (whatever the fuck that means)) and I'll see it mine.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • dahartigandahartigan Member, Host Rep

      Another one of these threads. If people took responsibility for their PayPal subscriptions this wouldn't be a near daily thing.

      I'm a HostDoc representative and purveyor of high quality potassium.

    • @Nekki said:
      twat.

      Thanked by 2t0ny0 receivedthanks

      |||| $8? 🥔🥔 Markdown on Potatoes.

    • @0ther6uy said: I came here to tell others about an issue with a provider.

      You would have the same issue with many providers if you don't cancel your PayPal subscription, so there's nothing new here

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks

      "Linux will run happily with only 4 MB of RAM, including all of the bells and whistles such as the X Window System, Emacs, and so on." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 32)

    • t0ny0t0ny0 Member
      edited October 9

      @0ther6uy said:
      I'm unsure as to where or how you are able to tell me my own motives,intentions, and even feelings for my own post. The post is pretty straight forward.

      I came here to tell others about an issue with a provider. This is the place for that. Making the community aware. You can see it your way (uh, shithousing (whatever the fuck that means)) and I'll see it mine.

      This is not an issue with a provider. This is an issue with one customer, that didn't cancel the subscription that they set up with PayPal, to pay the provider.
      If they refund you - they lose money, as the fees that PayPal charges are not refunded to the provider.
      So why would they have to lose money, when the fault is yours and yours only?

      And then you put a big BEWARE in the title? Beware customers like you.

    • Mic-haelMic-hael Member, Provider
      edited October 9

      @0ther6uy said:
      I'm unsure as to where or how you are able to tell me my own motives,intentions, and even feelings for my own post. The post is pretty straight forward.

      I came here to tell others about an issue with a provider. This is the place for that. Making the community aware. You can see it your way (uh, shithousing (whatever the fuck that means)) and I'll see it mine.

      Yes, but in reality the issue is your lack of proper cancellation.

      You are asking BudgetNote to physically lose money (fees) because of this.

      SmallWeb | DirectAdmin Shared Hosting in London | Amsterdam | Melbourne | New York | Luxembourg | Los Angeles

    • A good provider would refund it

      grape

    • NekkiNekki Member

      @0ther6uy said:
      I'm unsure as to where or how you are able to tell me my own motives,intentions, and even feelings for my own post. The post is pretty straight forward.

      Your comments betray your intentions and attitude. You actually blamed a website setting rather than accept you were wholly culpable.

      @corbpie said:
      A good provider would refund it

      And good customers would cancel subs so basically everyone’s a cunt.

    • ksugksug Member
      edited October 9

      @Mic-hael said:

      Yes, but in reality the issue is your lack of proper cancellation.

      You are asking BudgetNote to physically lose money (fees) because of this.

      Then why not just refund minus fees? An erroneous payment for service not rendered will result in a chargeback/dispute win by the customer (as it should), resulting in a bigger loss by the provider.

      Well, I'm probably just gonna get some TOS thumping as a reply.

      Thanked by 2imok receivedthanks
    • SpryServers_TabSpryServers_Tab Member, Provider

      @ksug said:

      @Mic-hael said:

      Yes, but in reality the issue is your lack of proper cancellation.

      You are asking BudgetNote to physically lose money (fees) because of this.

      Then why not just refund minus fees? An erroneous payment for service not rendered will result in a chargeback/dispute win by the customer (as it should), resulting in a bigger loss by the provider.

      Well, I'm probably just gonna get some TOS thumping as a reply.

      Here's the thing with that:

      There is no built in way to do that with PayPal. The only way to do this is manually figure out how much fees were generated, then do a partial refund from paypal. Then you have to go into your billing database and either manually edit entries, or mess around with creating a new invoice and crediting it to record the transaction. Either way, most billing software doesn't support refund minus fees. There would be no effective record of what happened without lots of manual labor.

      I just went through this with a client who paid about 5 invoices manually, then his subscription then paid them again right after.

      As a matter of fact, I've been meaning to write it into my TOS, that the only refund you will get for erroneous PayPal payments is as a credit balance.

      It's YOUR responsibility to manage your subscription. NOT the provider's.

      Tab Fitts | Founder/CEO - Spry Servers
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    • SSDBlazeSSDBlaze Member, Provider

      I have always seen both sides of this, I think we have all as least once forgot to cancel a paypal subscription and got burned

      All of the blame goes to the client for not keeping track of their active subscriptions. As far as if the provider refunds it, that should be in their ToS under their refund policy so you should know what happens if you accidentally pay.

      At the end of the day, the subscription is in the clients paypal account and it is their money at stake, so they should keep a eye on their subscriptions.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • Mic-haelMic-hael Member, Provider

      @ksug said:

      @Mic-hael said:

      Yes, but in reality the issue is your lack of proper cancellation.

      You are asking BudgetNote to physically lose money (fees) because of this.

      Then why not just refund minus fees? An erroneous payment for service not rendered will result in a chargeback/dispute win by the customer (as it should), resulting in a bigger loss by the provider.

      Well, I'm probably just gonna get some TOS thumping as a reply.

      A host could do that, but aside from what @SpryServers_Tab has mentioned generally with refunds its pro-rata, all, or nothing.

      The customer would not necessarily win on paypal, I believe many have won cases when customers have explicitily agreed.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks

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    • ksugksug Member
      edited October 10

      SpryServers_Tab said: There is no built in way to do that with PayPal. The only way to do this is manually figure out how much fees were generated, then do a partial refund from paypal. Then you have to go into your billing database and either manually edit entries, or mess around with creating a new invoice and crediting it to record the transaction. Either way, most billing software doesn't support refund minus fees. There would be no effective record of what happened without lots of manual labor.

      It makes sense to me now why providers are averse to this. Manual labor is pita. It has been my experience that it's not hard to automate using something like stripe, although the topic here is paypal.

      Well, payment by idiocy/error/accident/children gets reversed 100% of the time if the customer asks for it. So it's a matter of cost A (labor) vs. cost B (fees).

    • JordJord Moderator
      edited October 10

      This is the problem with PayPal. They like to change their policies and then meet the wrath of their customers, so they back down and revert the changes. Just like they did with refunds.

      PayPal will refund the cost of the % but not the fixed fee with is 24p in the UK. So refunding someone can be done. But it's a pain.

      If you refund a payment, we’ll retain the fixed portion of the fee you were charged when you received the payment. We’re not charging a fee for the refund, but simply retaining the fee, which has already been collected from your PayPal account.

      You should always check your PayPal subscriptions. Jeez I've done it and forgotten before. But I've always been refunded by the company because it is a genuine mistake.

      Edit: or 30p what ever it is now. They like to change it more times than a hooker changes her underwear

    • YmpkerYmpker Member
      edited October 10

      @SSDBlaze said:
      I have always seen both sides of this, I think we have all as least once forgot to cancel a paypal subscription and got burned

      All of the blame goes to the client for not keeping track of their active subscriptions. As far as if the provider refunds it, that should be in their ToS under their refund policy so you should know what happens if you accidentally pay.

      At the end of the day, the subscription is in the clients paypal account and it is their money at stake, so they should keep a eye on their subscriptions.

      Even though it's the client who forgot to cancel the PayPal sub, I couldn't imagine a scenario where a German provider would be allowed to keep the money if the contract&service with the client has been terminated. I think my stance on this is similar to what @Falzo said once in a similar topic (iirc). Whatever is written in the ToS is still outranked/nullified by established law. Since we have very consumer favouring laws in Germany I'm pretty sure german providers would be obliged to refund (minus a reasonable processing fee or PayPal fee).

      At the end of the day it's always a pita seeing this tedious PayPal Sub issue happen and I wish there was some double opt-out integrated in Whmcs/Blesta which terminated the contract and billing agreement with PayPal. The only other option left for providers to avoid such issue is to disable PayPal Subs as a payment option and instead use PayPal Payment Standard Checkout.

      Last but not least most people here are good lads and OP will remember to cancel the subscription next time.

      Thanked by 2grep receivedthanks
    • @Ympker said:

      @SSDBlaze said:
      I have always seen both sides of this, I think we have all as least once forgot to cancel a paypal subscription and got burned

      All of the blame goes to the client for not keeping track of their active subscriptions. As far as if the provider refunds it, that should be in their ToS under their refund policy so you should know what happens if you accidentally pay.

      At the end of the day, the subscription is in the clients paypal account and it is their money at stake, so they should keep a eye on their subscriptions.

      Even though it's the client who forgot to cancel the PayPal sub, I couldn't imagine a scenario where a German provider would be allowed to keep the money if the contract&service with the client has been terminated. I think my stance on this is similar to what @Falzo said once in a similar topic (iirc). Whatever is written in the ToS is still outranked/nullified by established law. Since we have very consumer favouring laws in Germany I'm pretty sure german providers would be obliged to refund (minus a reasonable processing fee or PayPal fee).

      Remember that the money was refunded in the form of credit on the OP's account.

      It's hard to know for sure what German law would decide in this case until it's tried in court. If it were clearly the law, then one would think that German providers would act accordingly, but (as far as I can tell) a typical German provider would also only refund in the form of credit in such a case.

      (I'm not saying that you or @Falzo are mistaken -- it's simply hard to know for sure.)

      "Linux will run happily with only 4 MB of RAM, including all of the bells and whistles such as the X Window System, Emacs, and so on." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 32)

    • YmpkerYmpker Member
      edited October 10

      @angstrom said:

      @Ympker said:

      @SSDBlaze said:
      I have always seen both sides of this, I think we have all as least once forgot to cancel a paypal subscription and got burned

      All of the blame goes to the client for not keeping track of their active subscriptions. As far as if the provider refunds it, that should be in their ToS under their refund policy so you should know what happens if you accidentally pay.

      At the end of the day, the subscription is in the clients paypal account and it is their money at stake, so they should keep a eye on their subscriptions.

      Even though it's the client who forgot to cancel the PayPal sub, I couldn't imagine a scenario where a German provider would be allowed to keep the money if the contract&service with the client has been terminated. I think my stance on this is similar to what @Falzo said once in a similar topic (iirc). Whatever is written in the ToS is still outranked/nullified by established law. Since we have very consumer favouring laws in Germany I'm pretty sure german providers would be obliged to refund (minus a reasonable processing fee or PayPal fee).

      Remember that the money was refunded in the form of credit on the OP's account.

      It's hard to know for sure what German law would decide in this case until it's tried in court. If it were clearly the law, then one would think that German providers would act accordingly, but (as far as I can tell) a typical German provider would also only refund in the form of credit in such a case.

      (I'm not saying that you or @Falzo are mistaken -- it's simply hard to know for sure.)

      Agree that it's not easy to decide and this would only be my assumption. I am no legal advisor though and I am pretty sure that many providers only refund in account credit still. Whether that would hold against a complaint being filed..I honestly don't know but I'd assume it would go in the consumers favour. At this point, let me make clear that I don't want to blame Ishaq or anyone else here. Both sides of the story are relatable, afterall.

      Many local stores (pretty much) only refund in store credit (Saturn, Media Markt..), too.
      However, when ordering things online in Germany that's another story...as the internet is still "Neuland" and we need to protect consumers from the dangerous internet jajaja huehue.

    • somiksomik Member

      That's why I always pay monthly. Yes it's troublesome but still better then the alternative. You can also pay in advance and keep money on your account as credit to be used for renewal.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • FalzoFalzo Member
      edited October 10

      angstrom said: Remember that the money was refunded in the form of credit on the OP's account.

      It's hard to know for sure what German law would decide in this case until it's tried in court.

      .

      Ympker said: Agree that it's not easy to decide and this would only be my assumption. I am no legal advisor though and I am pretty sure that many providers only refund in account credit still.

      I am quite certain that 'refunding as credits' does not count as refunding at all.
      there is and has been quite some legislation regarding prepaid mobile phone cards, where prepayments (and therefore credits) weren't allowed to simply expire after a certain time and providers definitely had to refund the credits on request - even the prepayment happened before the cancellation...

      so I still think there is no justification to simply keep overpaid money. damage compensation aka reasonable processing and paypal fees, yes for sure. but that's most likely it.
      of course laws in different countries might regulate that differently.

      in the end it's up to the provider, if he cares about public complaints or not on that matter, esp. over a few bucks... each to their own.

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    • deankdeank Member

      I'd always choose public complaints over peaceful resolution.

      Free advertising.

      If you can't make your point within 5 lines of words, you have an optimization issue.

    • donlidonli Member
      edited October 10

      Everyone go to your paypal account.

      Select the settings icon.
      Then the PAYMENTS tab.
      Then select (Manage automatic payments).

      And make sure there's nothing there you've forgotten about and don't want automatically paid.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • imokimok Member

      @donli said:
      Everyone go to your paypal account.

      Select the settings icon.
      Then the PAYMENTS tab.
      Then select (Manage automatic payments).

      And make sure there's nothing there you've forgotten about and don't want automatically paid.

      Threads/tutorials/advices like this should be pinned somewhere for new users, not that shitty newsletter or main navigation.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • deankdeank Member

      Doesn't matter. People won't read anyway unless it has a killer (aka unsustainable) offers are attached. Even then, they will skim over.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks

      If you can't make your point within 5 lines of words, you have an optimization issue.

    • jarjar Provider
      edited October 10

      @SpryServers_Tab said:

      @ksug said:

      @Mic-hael said:

      Yes, but in reality the issue is your lack of proper cancellation.

      You are asking BudgetNote to physically lose money (fees) because of this.

      Then why not just refund minus fees? An erroneous payment for service not rendered will result in a chargeback/dispute win by the customer (as it should), resulting in a bigger loss by the provider.

      Well, I'm probably just gonna get some TOS thumping as a reply.

      Here's the thing with that:

      There is no built in way to do that with PayPal. The only way to do this is manually figure out how much fees were generated, then do a partial refund from paypal. Then you have to go into your billing database and either manually edit entries, or mess around with creating a new invoice and crediting it to record the transaction. Either way, most billing software doesn't support refund minus fees. There would be no effective record of what happened without lots of manual labor.

      I just went through this with a client who paid about 5 invoices manually, then his subscription then paid them again right after.

      As a matter of fact, I've been meaning to write it into my TOS, that the only refund you will get for erroneous PayPal payments is as a credit balance.

      It's YOUR responsibility to manage your subscription. NOT the provider's.

      Almost every provider here is using whmcs (including the mentioned one here).

      Click invoice. Look at numbers. Click Refund tab. Type amount minus transaction fee (which is listed just a couple inches down on the same page), click Refund. It should be listed under one of the invoices as an overpayment even if a new invoice wasn’t generated, that’s the one you’d do this from.

      Also whmcs can track subscriptions and the provider can cancel them on the product page. WHMCS can auto cancel these when cancelling the service as well, short of an odd circumstance where the ID wasn’t written to the database.

      I get that it’s the customer’s responsibility in the end, but this isn’t exactly “uphill both ways, in the snow, while dodging gunfire” for the provider.

    • qpsqps Member, Provider

      PayPal subscriptions are a huge time waster. People rarely remember to cancel, and the built in stuff in WHMCS rarely cancels them automatically.

      Switch from subscriptions to billing agreements.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • deankdeank Member

      You know, Paypal could have corrected how PP sub works many moons ago.

      But they don't seem to care as it brings in extra dough. I think, in PP's eyes, Paypal sub is working as intended.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks

      If you can't make your point within 5 lines of words, you have an optimization issue.

    • MasonRMasonR Member
      edited October 10

      @donli said:
      Everyone go to your paypal account.

      Select the settings icon.
      Then the PAYMENTS tab.
      Then select (Manage automatic payments).

      And make sure there's nothing there you've forgotten about and don't want automatically paid.

      Here's a direct link: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_manage-paylist

      (hopefully it redirects you to whichever paypal branch [us/eu/etc.] that your account belongs to)

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    • jarjar Provider

      @deank said:
      You know, Paypal could have corrected how PP sub works many moons ago.

      But they don't seem to care as it brings in extra dough. I think, in PP's eyes, Paypal sub is working as intended.

      They are working as intended though. They were designed to set up recurring payments to someone, and they function well. They can be cancelled via API and by both parties.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • deankdeank Member

      option.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks

      If you can't make your point within 5 lines of words, you have an optimization issue.

    • Opt-out.

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    • deankdeank Member

      Potassium.

      If you can't make your point within 5 lines of words, you have an optimization issue.

    • JordJord Moderator
      edited October 10
    • HaniHani Member, Provider

      For me money is taken for a service

      If you cant provide the service for the client then refund them the money

      it is simple

      saying it is manual process is not an excuse , as provide you do a lot of stuff manually for the client when they open tickets and ask for something so I find it unfair that when the client need the money back we say it manual work and we will not do it

      We had users asking us for refunds for 1 year backward and while we hate those requests we have never kept the the client money without them needing a service

      Actually that is the main cause that forced us to switch to billing agreement so when the user does not have any service with us we simply dont charge them anymore regardless if they cancelled the agreement or not

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    • Typically I PM the service provider and suggest that they add the amount as a credit into the account, otherwise PP (or likes) will be the actual beneficiary. Did that with @StockServers recently. "Cashback credited to customer account" is a common practise among service providers from food delivery to airline booking in India. For a business how that works for revenue or expense recognition (accrual basis versus cash basis) - is a question for tax specialists, but since we are discussing low dollar amounts, no questions or flags raised so far. Most service providers have an upper limit for adding credit anyways so that is the other arm of the 'checks and balances'.

      There has been one instance in which I got the full refund, then I realised that the service provider actually incurred a loss in the process. Therefore really liked what @jar mentioned (deduct transaction fee while claiming refund). Particularly if you have been with provider X for a certain period of time and you are not leaving because of spite but you probably have outgrown the need for the time being.

    • HostEONSHostEONS Member, Provider

      If a customer cancels the service via WHMCS cancellation system, WHMCS automatically cancels the PayPal subscription if enabled under Settings (From what i remember) unless client has multiple services so it should not be a problem, unless provider is using old version of WHMCS or has not enabled automatic PayPal subscription under WHMCS.

      But again it all depends upon the TOS of the provider and it's upto the provider whether to refund or not and how can a customer expect all providers to take out time and issue refund and go through all the billing mess and also bare PayPal fees.

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    • @HostEONS said:
      If a customer cancels the service via WHMCS cancellation system, WHMCS automatically cancels the PayPal subscription if enabled under Settings (From what i remember) unless client has multiple services so it should not be a problem, unless provider is using old version of WHMCS or has not enabled automatic PayPal subscription under WHMCS.

      But again it all depends upon the TOS of the provider and it's upto the provider whether to refund or not and how can a customer expect all providers to take out time and issue refund and go through all the billing mess and also bare PayPal fees.

      Not everything written in TOS is necessarily legally conform though. In some cases customers would need to be refunded with the same payment method they've used to pay. That's only Germany though. Judging by what @jar said earlier, that "billing mess" should literally be a couple clicks to refund and substract PayPal fees.

      Thanked by 1receivedthanks
    • fpmagicfpmagic Member
      edited October 10

      You most certainly can as a provider cancel a subscription via the API
      https://developer.paypal.com/docs/api/subscriptions/v1/#subscriptions_cancel

      The problem is that hosts here are all WHMCS sheep, if WHMCS implementation doesnt handle subscription cancellation linked to plan then functionality doesn't exist - so blame the customer.

    • jbuggiejbuggie Member
      edited October 10

      The whole Paypal subscription option is STUPID. Just say no to Paypal subscription. When you are subscribed to a service using a CC (i.e. a magazine, video...), it is linked with the CC and the service provider is responsible for stop charging your CC when you cancelled the service. Not the case with Paypal subscription and some providers would refuse to refund. Some would only offer partial refund - Hostdoc is one of them.

      Therefore, I make a mental note to refuse to deal with any provider who insists on creating a Paypal subscription upon ordering their service. It is a shady business practice at best.

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    • NekkiNekki Member

      @jbuggie said:
      The whole Paypal subscription option is STUPID. Just say no to Paypal subscription. When you are subscribed to a service using a CC (i.e. a magazine, video...), it is linked with the CC and the service provider is responsible for stop charging your CC when you cancelled the service. Not the case with Paypal subscription and some providers would refuse to refund. Some would only offer partial refund - Hostdoc is one of them.

      Therefore, I make a mental note to refuse to deal with any provider who insists on creating a Paypal subscription upon ordering their service. It is a shady business practice at best.

      ‘Shady’.

      I swear I don’t know what goes on in your millennial minds.

    • imokimok Member

      @fpmagic said:

      The problem is that hosts here are all WHMCS sheep, if WHMCS implementation doesnt handle subscription cancellation linked to plan then functionality doesn't exist - so blame the customer.

      Even worse. Most providers here expect the user knows how WHMCS handle their entire business.

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