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BudgetNode.com (OP did not cancel Paypal subscription)
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BudgetNode.com (OP did not cancel Paypal subscription)

0ther6uy0ther6uy Member
edited October 2019 in General

Hello all,

I've been a long time user of BudgetNode. I've had several services through them, and never really had any issue. The ONLY issue I've ever had was with billing, and this last experience has forced me to move on.

Their services have an option to auto-renew with PayPal. I canceled an annual service back in May, and a few days ago was charged the yearly amount again. Since it's canceled, and since I have no active services at BudgetNode, I contacted them requesting a refund, since I don't even have any active services to apply credit to.

I was told they only add overages as credits.

Just a heads up for those looking for offers. If you are considering using this service there are zero chances of you getting your money back in the event of anything going awry. I've been with them for years, but will not be any longer.

Thanked by 1receivedthanks
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Comments

  • Did you cancel your PayPal subscription to them?

    Thanked by 1receivedthanks
  • I did, after I saw that it was to blame.

    I even stated that in the ticket on BN's client site. Didn't make a difference..

    Thanked by 1receivedthanks
  • So it’s 100% your fault, you soft twat.

    Ffs, I thought we were past this level of shithousery.

  • I'm posting this for people who are considering providers. Not to disappoint you that the world hasn't made it to your levels of expectant operation. Good luck though.

    Thanked by 2easy receivedthanks
  • No, you’re posting it because you have rage and you want to shithouse the provider.

    Thanked by 1receivedthanks
  • Not really shithousing a provider that doesn't return money that was paid for services that aren't active.

    Moreso letting the public know how things operate.

    Is that wrong?

    Thanked by 1receivedthanks
  • @0ther6uy said:
    Not really shithousing a provider that doesn't return money that was paid for services that aren't active.

    Moreso letting the public know how things operate.

    Is that wrong?

    Don’t make out this is altruism, you’re pissed off and this is you lashing out. It’s not healthy pal.

    Thanked by 1receivedthanks
  • 0ther6uy said: I'm posting this for people who are considering providers. Not to disappoint you that the world hasn't made it to your levels of expectant operation. Good luck though.

    This has very little to do with the Provider.
    In a lot of cases, you cannot say "X did not refund my paypal subscription that I did not cancel, beware!" when that is standard policy across hundreds of companies.

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  • I'm unsure as to where or how you are able to tell me my own motives,intentions, and even feelings for my own post. The post is pretty straight forward.

    I came here to tell others about an issue with a provider. This is the place for that. Making the community aware. You can see it your way (uh, shithousing (whatever the fuck that means)) and I'll see it mine.

    Thanked by 1receivedthanks
  • Another one of these threads. If people took responsibility for their PayPal subscriptions this wouldn't be a near daily thing.

  • @0ther6uy said: I came here to tell others about an issue with a provider.

    You would have the same issue with many providers if you don't cancel your PayPal subscription, so there's nothing new here

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  • edited October 2019

    @0ther6uy said:
    I'm unsure as to where or how you are able to tell me my own motives,intentions, and even feelings for my own post. The post is pretty straight forward.

    I came here to tell others about an issue with a provider. This is the place for that. Making the community aware. You can see it your way (uh, shithousing (whatever the fuck that means)) and I'll see it mine.

    This is not an issue with a provider. This is an issue with one customer, that didn't cancel the subscription that they set up with PayPal, to pay the provider.
    If they refund you - they lose money, as the fees that PayPal charges are not refunded to the provider.
    So why would they have to lose money, when the fault is yours and yours only?

    And then you put a big BEWARE in the title? Beware customers like you.

  • MichaelCeeMichaelCee Barred
    edited October 2019

    @0ther6uy said:
    I'm unsure as to where or how you are able to tell me my own motives,intentions, and even feelings for my own post. The post is pretty straight forward.

    I came here to tell others about an issue with a provider. This is the place for that. Making the community aware. You can see it your way (uh, shithousing (whatever the fuck that means)) and I'll see it mine.

    Yes, but in reality the issue is your lack of proper cancellation.

    You are asking BudgetNote to physically lose money (fees) because of this.

  • A good provider would refund it

  • @0ther6uy said:
    I'm unsure as to where or how you are able to tell me my own motives,intentions, and even feelings for my own post. The post is pretty straight forward.

    Your comments betray your intentions and attitude. You actually blamed a website setting rather than accept you were wholly culpable.

    @corbpie said:
    A good provider would refund it

    And good customers would cancel subs so basically everyone’s a cunt.

  • ksugksug Member
    edited October 2019

    @Mic-hael said:

    Yes, but in reality the issue is your lack of proper cancellation.

    You are asking BudgetNote to physically lose money (fees) because of this.

    Then why not just refund minus fees? An erroneous payment for service not rendered will result in a chargeback/dispute win by the customer (as it should), resulting in a bigger loss by the provider.

    Well, I'm probably just gonna get some TOS thumping as a reply.

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  • SpryServers_TabSpryServers_Tab Member, Host Rep

    @ksug said:

    @Mic-hael said:

    Yes, but in reality the issue is your lack of proper cancellation.

    You are asking BudgetNote to physically lose money (fees) because of this.

    Then why not just refund minus fees? An erroneous payment for service not rendered will result in a chargeback/dispute win by the customer (as it should), resulting in a bigger loss by the provider.

    Well, I'm probably just gonna get some TOS thumping as a reply.

    Here's the thing with that:

    There is no built in way to do that with PayPal. The only way to do this is manually figure out how much fees were generated, then do a partial refund from paypal. Then you have to go into your billing database and either manually edit entries, or mess around with creating a new invoice and crediting it to record the transaction. Either way, most billing software doesn't support refund minus fees. There would be no effective record of what happened without lots of manual labor.

    I just went through this with a client who paid about 5 invoices manually, then his subscription then paid them again right after.

    As a matter of fact, I've been meaning to write it into my TOS, that the only refund you will get for erroneous PayPal payments is as a credit balance.

    It's YOUR responsibility to manage your subscription. NOT the provider's.

  • SSDBlazeSSDBlaze Member, Host Rep

    I have always seen both sides of this, I think we have all as least once forgot to cancel a paypal subscription and got burned

    All of the blame goes to the client for not keeping track of their active subscriptions. As far as if the provider refunds it, that should be in their ToS under their refund policy so you should know what happens if you accidentally pay.

    At the end of the day, the subscription is in the clients paypal account and it is their money at stake, so they should keep a eye on their subscriptions.

    Thanked by 1receivedthanks
  • @ksug said:

    @Mic-hael said:

    Yes, but in reality the issue is your lack of proper cancellation.

    You are asking BudgetNote to physically lose money (fees) because of this.

    Then why not just refund minus fees? An erroneous payment for service not rendered will result in a chargeback/dispute win by the customer (as it should), resulting in a bigger loss by the provider.

    Well, I'm probably just gonna get some TOS thumping as a reply.

    A host could do that, but aside from what @SpryServers_Tab has mentioned generally with refunds its pro-rata, all, or nothing.

    The customer would not necessarily win on paypal, I believe many have won cases when customers have explicitily agreed.

    Thanked by 1receivedthanks
  • ksugksug Member
    edited October 2019

    SpryServers_Tab said: There is no built in way to do that with PayPal. The only way to do this is manually figure out how much fees were generated, then do a partial refund from paypal. Then you have to go into your billing database and either manually edit entries, or mess around with creating a new invoice and crediting it to record the transaction. Either way, most billing software doesn't support refund minus fees. There would be no effective record of what happened without lots of manual labor.

    It makes sense to me now why providers are averse to this. Manual labor is pita. It has been my experience that it's not hard to automate using something like stripe, although the topic here is paypal.

    Well, payment by idiocy/error/accident/children gets reversed 100% of the time if the customer asks for it. So it's a matter of cost A (labor) vs. cost B (fees).

  • JordJord Moderator, Host Rep
    edited October 2019

    This is the problem with PayPal. They like to change their policies and then meet the wrath of their customers, so they back down and revert the changes. Just like they did with refunds.

    PayPal will refund the cost of the % but not the fixed fee with is 24p in the UK. So refunding someone can be done. But it's a pain.

    If you refund a payment, we’ll retain the fixed portion of the fee you were charged when you received the payment. We’re not charging a fee for the refund, but simply retaining the fee, which has already been collected from your PayPal account.

    You should always check your PayPal subscriptions. Jeez I've done it and forgotten before. But I've always been refunded by the company because it is a genuine mistake.

    Edit: or 30p what ever it is now. They like to change it more times than a hooker changes her underwear

  • YmpkerYmpker Member
    edited October 2019

    @SSDBlaze said:
    I have always seen both sides of this, I think we have all as least once forgot to cancel a paypal subscription and got burned

    All of the blame goes to the client for not keeping track of their active subscriptions. As far as if the provider refunds it, that should be in their ToS under their refund policy so you should know what happens if you accidentally pay.

    At the end of the day, the subscription is in the clients paypal account and it is their money at stake, so they should keep a eye on their subscriptions.

    Even though it's the client who forgot to cancel the PayPal sub, I couldn't imagine a scenario where a German provider would be allowed to keep the money if the contract&service with the client has been terminated. I think my stance on this is similar to what @Falzo said once in a similar topic (iirc). Whatever is written in the ToS is still outranked/nullified by established law. Since we have very consumer favouring laws in Germany I'm pretty sure german providers would be obliged to refund (minus a reasonable processing fee or PayPal fee).

    At the end of the day it's always a pita seeing this tedious PayPal Sub issue happen and I wish there was some double opt-out integrated in Whmcs/Blesta which terminated the contract and billing agreement with PayPal. The only other option left for providers to avoid such issue is to disable PayPal Subs as a payment option and instead use PayPal Payment Standard Checkout.

    Last but not least most people here are good lads and OP will remember to cancel the subscription next time.

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  • @Ympker said:

    @SSDBlaze said:
    I have always seen both sides of this, I think we have all as least once forgot to cancel a paypal subscription and got burned

    All of the blame goes to the client for not keeping track of their active subscriptions. As far as if the provider refunds it, that should be in their ToS under their refund policy so you should know what happens if you accidentally pay.

    At the end of the day, the subscription is in the clients paypal account and it is their money at stake, so they should keep a eye on their subscriptions.

    Even though it's the client who forgot to cancel the PayPal sub, I couldn't imagine a scenario where a German provider would be allowed to keep the money if the contract&service with the client has been terminated. I think my stance on this is similar to what @Falzo said once in a similar topic (iirc). Whatever is written in the ToS is still outranked/nullified by established law. Since we have very consumer favouring laws in Germany I'm pretty sure german providers would be obliged to refund (minus a reasonable processing fee or PayPal fee).

    Remember that the money was refunded in the form of credit on the OP's account.

    It's hard to know for sure what German law would decide in this case until it's tried in court. If it were clearly the law, then one would think that German providers would act accordingly, but (as far as I can tell) a typical German provider would also only refund in the form of credit in such a case.

    (I'm not saying that you or @Falzo are mistaken -- it's simply hard to know for sure.)

  • YmpkerYmpker Member
    edited October 2019

    @angstrom said:

    @Ympker said:

    @SSDBlaze said:
    I have always seen both sides of this, I think we have all as least once forgot to cancel a paypal subscription and got burned

    All of the blame goes to the client for not keeping track of their active subscriptions. As far as if the provider refunds it, that should be in their ToS under their refund policy so you should know what happens if you accidentally pay.

    At the end of the day, the subscription is in the clients paypal account and it is their money at stake, so they should keep a eye on their subscriptions.

    Even though it's the client who forgot to cancel the PayPal sub, I couldn't imagine a scenario where a German provider would be allowed to keep the money if the contract&service with the client has been terminated. I think my stance on this is similar to what @Falzo said once in a similar topic (iirc). Whatever is written in the ToS is still outranked/nullified by established law. Since we have very consumer favouring laws in Germany I'm pretty sure german providers would be obliged to refund (minus a reasonable processing fee or PayPal fee).

    Remember that the money was refunded in the form of credit on the OP's account.

    It's hard to know for sure what German law would decide in this case until it's tried in court. If it were clearly the law, then one would think that German providers would act accordingly, but (as far as I can tell) a typical German provider would also only refund in the form of credit in such a case.

    (I'm not saying that you or @Falzo are mistaken -- it's simply hard to know for sure.)

    Agree that it's not easy to decide and this would only be my assumption. I am no legal advisor though and I am pretty sure that many providers only refund in account credit still. Whether that would hold against a complaint being filed..I honestly don't know but I'd assume it would go in the consumers favour. At this point, let me make clear that I don't want to blame Ishaq or anyone else here. Both sides of the story are relatable, afterall.

    Many local stores (pretty much) only refund in store credit (Saturn, Media Markt..), too.
    However, when ordering things online in Germany that's another story...as the internet is still "Neuland" and we need to protect consumers from the dangerous internet jajaja huehue.

  • That's why I always pay monthly. Yes it's troublesome but still better then the alternative. You can also pay in advance and keep money on your account as credit to be used for renewal.

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  • FalzoFalzo Member
    edited October 2019

    angstrom said: Remember that the money was refunded in the form of credit on the OP's account.

    It's hard to know for sure what German law would decide in this case until it's tried in court.

    .

    Ympker said: Agree that it's not easy to decide and this would only be my assumption. I am no legal advisor though and I am pretty sure that many providers only refund in account credit still.

    I am quite certain that 'refunding as credits' does not count as refunding at all.
    there is and has been quite some legislation regarding prepaid mobile phone cards, where prepayments (and therefore credits) weren't allowed to simply expire after a certain time and providers definitely had to refund the credits on request - even the prepayment happened before the cancellation...

    so I still think there is no justification to simply keep overpaid money. damage compensation aka reasonable processing and paypal fees, yes for sure. but that's most likely it.
    of course laws in different countries might regulate that differently.

    in the end it's up to the provider, if he cares about public complaints or not on that matter, esp. over a few bucks... each to their own.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    I'd always choose public complaints over peaceful resolution.

    Free advertising.

  • donlidonli Member
    edited October 2019

    Everyone go to your paypal account.

    Select the settings icon.
    Then the PAYMENTS tab.
    Then select (Manage automatic payments).

    And make sure there's nothing there you've forgotten about and don't want automatically paid.

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