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Tor node on low end boxes - Page 6
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Tor node on low end boxes

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Comments

  • Yes, I can use my truck to take someone's life. But I don't. However, not everyone is me, because if that were the case we would have zero vehicular homicides.

    I don't host illegal materials online. Not everyone is me. The fact is, it happens, it's going to happen. Services like Tor enable a user to not only host that garbage, but abuse a provider's network while doing so. Without that complete anonymity, few idiots would take the chance.

    From the point that none of your examples include anything nasty that can happen through Tor, it's pretty obvious you're merely reciting one-sided banter and are not even willing to actually listen to another point of view, so I do believe I'm done wasting my time with the likes of you.

    Thanked by 1NickM
  • DamianDamian Member
    edited February 2012

    (edit) @Aldryic beat me to it! (/edit)

    Dragging RL into this eh? I'm pretty sure that in most municipalities, operating an automobile while intoxicated is illegal, because you "can" destroy people's lives.

    Why don't you join a MADD forum and start telling them that they're wrong, and leave us alone for awhile.

    Thanked by 1Aldryic
  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    Well, you started. Drop the **** against Tor and i will stop proving you wrong.
    So you say that if someone drives around at 2 AM and gets a random wi-fi will be caught ? Or if using a fake CC to host in your servers ?
    Use Freenet from home ? Use VPNs bought with fake CC and bouncing off open proxies, will that still expose them ? I see you keep avoiding the issue, a real criminal WILL do that, with or without your LEB, but it will never help fight censorship and criminal regimes and criminal acts of individuals in legitimate regims.
    It is like in blocking immigration, you dont give green cards so only the criminals come into your country, they do "manage" somehow, while you keep the honest hard working ppl in jail, shoot at borders or drag the net in the street to check every hispanic or asian out there.
    M

  • @Maounique said: Drop the **** against Tor and i will stop proving you wrong.

    You've never proven any of us providers wrong, it is still my equipment, and you still cannot host Tor on my equipment while I own it.

    Thanked by 1TheHackBox
  • SpiritSpirit Member
    edited February 2012

    I think that he's accepting that. From reading imho, he rather want recognition that it's not all that bad regarding Tor, that it's not just about abuse and running Tor doesn't mean legal sanctions by default as there out are providers which do this per years.
    I understand why so many providers don't want to deal with Tor. I really do. But main misunderstanding here is that many of you don't want to take potential risk and because of that feel attacked by his arguments "it's not all that bad regarding Tor, it's not just about abuse and running Tor doesn't mean legal sanctions by default as there out are providers which do this per years" which from other point of a view actually isn't wrong.
    All this remind me on all those "pro et contra" IRC related discussions between clients and hosts. Things can easily get wrong, and you don't want that. I got it! But this doesn't criminalize Tor usage by default.

    Thanked by 1Steve81
  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    Exactly, nobody wants to force x or y to accept some service, but this does not mean that the rejected service is rejected with just cause. Httpd still "seizes" more hardware, regular internet still has a higher P2P traffic, still, criminals use better means than Tor, so on and so forth.
    But this doesnt mean KuJoe should allow Tor, nor that he shouldnt allow httpd, he choses the higher risk over the lower one, his choice, but ppl offering pricey servers for what they think is criminal activity, this is really ridiculous. How would that prove their point ? Are we all here braindead ? Gee...
    M

  • @Maounique just a tip for future discussions: Try to write shorter texts and get to the point or include a tl;dr. Tbh i didn't bother with reading all the stuff you write, although in principle i agree with you.
    I don't know about the legal perspective, but aren't non-exit nodes actually kinda the same as bandwidth providers/ISPs?

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    Sure, as such they have safe harbour, BUT, a non-exit node is a problem only for ppl that oversold the bw. Will never generate any complaint. The ppl that oversell are trying to defend their position by adopting a righteous attitude like "we dont deal with shady business".
    M

  • @Maounique said: The ppl that oversell are trying to defend their position

    What Cracker Jack box did you pull this idea from? ALL VPS providers oversell, it is the whole idea behind VPS, if you think otherwise, you are simply naive, or in your own words, braindead.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    Well, some oversell more than others, in any case, at least SOME agree with ppl that use the BW they buy, so probably they dont have a 10:1 ratio like others...
    M

  • Why don't you buy your own dedicated servers and host TOR nodes on them?

  • @Maounique Nobody doesn't oversell bandwidth

  • I think what @Maounique ment is that providers only forbid tor, because it makes people actually use their bandwidth and put the provider's overselling in danger.

  • @gsrdgrdghd said: providers only forbid tor, because it makes people actually use their bandwidth

    That might be the common thought that has been taken from this thread, but it is the untraceable abuse they generate, on an exit node at least. I don't doubt the vast majority of the traffic is legit, but all it takes is 1 abuser to spoil it for all since that abuser cannot be traced.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited February 2012

    Sure, the abusers of open or badly secured wi-fis can be traced, same those using fake CCs for renting your LEB, those using botnets, hacked sites, open proxies, prepaid cards from a distribution machine near you, stolen phones and laptops, so on and so forth.
    Banning a service because it can be abused means all internet should be closed. That is the main idea, not that oversellers wont like Tor, be it exit or non-exit, tho that is the reason for their "righteous" attitude in the end.
    M
    P.S. Why don't you buy your own dedicated servers and host TOR nodes on them?
    This is not about me needing to find providers for Tor LEBs, tho it would be nice to have all those that allow it in one place so ppl know where to look, but about Tor in general, what are the real reasons ppl block it, cleaning some **** poured on Tor by ppl that dont understand what it is or are simply trying to justify their rejection (tho they dont have to).
    I know providers that host Tor, or at least allow it, I have big cheap BW in my country, dont need that, but I am in this "business" for many years, it is harder for newbies to VPSes and LEBs to find providers and will also help the ppl trying to sell VPSes where Tor is allowed. The industry doesnt like it, fine, just dont lie about it, dont make up reasons to mask your shady business practices.
    A few hosts CAN afford the BW, the majority cant, as giBmiT clearly stated above.

  • Someone is taking ignorance to a whole other level...

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    Indeed, I find it sad from the ppl that are supposed to know what they are selling...
    M

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    So we (all VPS providers) don't allow DDOS attacks because bandwidth is expensive?

  • @Maounique said: ppl that dont understand what it is or are simply trying to justify their rejection (tho they dont have to).

    Please stop being braindead, and ignorant. I did allow Tor until recently. Then abuse was reported about a Tor user, not the node operator, and the operator could not provide any details, and thus was born the policy, no Tor. Same if my client was running an insecure wifi, I suspend that user, address the problem, and resume service, stolen credit card? Suspend server until valid payment/ straight termination. You want to list all this bullshit that does happen, and guess what, the abuse is dealt with, but all that other stuff is traceable, Tor is not. The whole point of Tor is to provide anonymity, which I feel is honorable, but also is a double edged sword.

    I can surgically remove abuse from other means without needing nukes like is true with Tor.

  • @KuJoe said: So we (all VPS providers) don't allow DDOS attacks because bandwidth is expensive?

    DDoS attacks are forbidden by law

  • DamianDamian Member
    edited February 2012

    Ah, but as @maounique will point out, datacenters haven't been raided! Servers haven't been appropriated! The media hasn't been covering it! Your grandma hasn't had her head beat in! Therefore, it's legal!

  • He didn't answer my question :(. Why don't you buy some cheap dedicated servers (atoms should be fine) and host some exit nodes?

  • @Kairus said: He didn't answer my question :(

    Ha, I said that back on page two of this discussion; it got ignored because it was not convenient to his argument.

  • @Kairus said: He didn't answer my question :(. Why don't you buy some cheap dedicated servers (atoms should be fine) and host some exit nodes?

    @Maounique said: P.S. Why don't you buy your own dedicated servers and host TOR nodes on them?

    This is not about me needing to find providers for Tor LEBs, tho it would be nice to have all those that allow it in one place so ppl know where to look, but about Tor in general, what are the real reasons ppl block it, cleaning some **** poured on Tor by ppl that dont understand what it is or are simply trying to justify their rejection (tho they dont have to).

    Thanked by 1Maounique
  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited February 2012

    Looks like Steve81 is really reading the arguments and not only the propaganda.

    miTgiB, you do not address any of the problems, you said you can suspend the user that payd with stolen card, but you cant trace Tor users...
    Apples and oranges, if you can trace the stolen CCs, fine, then we have a correct comparison, if you cant, then you shouldnt provide LEBs because you cant trace criminals that use stolen cards.
    Can you trace the hacker of your node ? The policy probably says no hacked sites, like someone is intentionally putting a board to be hacked... Can they provide info about their users ? So a new policy is born, no dynamic sites...
    What other stuff is traceable ? Nothing, provided the criminals know their ways. So what we will allow ? Static pages like in the nineties ? HTML with cat pictures and wedding albums ? Compile apache (or BOA, why not) without php, cgi and whatever makes dynamic pages possible, including running spiders for "rogue" INPUT fields to detect "abuse" ? Ban any DB ? Put default firewall that only allows port 80 (since 443 is dangerous because not everything can be traced that way) ? Ban ssh since ppl can make mistake in configuring it or use it to tunnel and do some "dastardly deeds" ?
    I am certain you understand the idea, you just pretend not to.
    M

  • As much as some people want the world to black or white, the reality is that it is a collection of greys. The providers who have posted here have to decide where to draw the line. It appears that most (all?) have come to the conclusion that tor is just not worth the headaches that come with it. Many providers have had the decision placed on then from their upstream.

    @Maounique I really doubt that you are going to be changing any providers policies with this thread. If you want a tor low end provider think of it as a business opportunity and start one.

    Thanked by 1gsrdgrdghd
  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited February 2012

    You are right and I dont aim to change their policy, i simply try to dispell some lies about Tor.
    I dont intend to start any business, I can find enough providers for Tor and i am not alone, otherwise there wouldnt be routers like this, would they ? Colo, rent, whatever, 20+ MBps http://torstatus.blutmagie.de/router_detail.php?FP=253dff1838a2b7782be7735f74e50090d46ca1bc
    I prefer smaller ones spread around because they are carrying the most legit traffic that is needed, especially with my exit ports combination.
    There are no headaches that come with Tor non-exit nodes except that they do use the bw that was advertised in the offer and massive oversellers are getting a headache and as such try to rule out the customers that would indeed use (one of) the resources they pay for. Spreading lies in this thread meant they went too far to justify their practices and they deserve to be corrected.

    M

  • Steve81Steve81 Member
    edited February 2012

    @Maounique said: Looks like Steve81 is really reading the arguments and not only the propaganda.

    I simply read the thread.

    I don't like your zealot's behaviour; however some of your concept are condivisible but that's also true for the provider point of view. Sadly "I don't want troubles" is an understandable concept.

    @Aldryic said: Fact: A user can host a private Tor-only site filled with CP, and the provider will likely never know of it, receive any abuse or complaints, etc.

    Fact: We will not support a project that gives users the ability to host/pass material that violates a providers TOS/AUP, and enables such action without consequences, repercussion.

    So the problems are exit nodes and onion sites, right?

    @Steve81 said: Isn't possible a solution like a shared (offloaded?) tor middle node (with an additional fee to use it, maybe)?

  • It's not a VPS, but it is free (which is why I posted it!) and it uses tor. Don't know if it is any good, I've had one for a few months but not done anything with it.

    http://www.cjb.net/shell.html

    Thanked by 1Maounique
  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited February 2012

    So the problems are exit nodes and onion sites, right?
    I dont think so. The problem are the customers that use what they pay for.

    Regarding my zealot attitude, till I came here, the discussion was about CP, torrents and warez. After i came, it did mention that ocasionally to try to continue in the same note, but, in general, who is reading the thread gets a more balanced view. Since I was almost alone defending Tor here, I had to put up more effort into it, bring the facts into the discussion and asking for proof for the acusations.
    I think the issue has been settled, I only reply personal attacks from the ppl that have no other arguments.
    M

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