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How to convince more people to run Tor relays? - Page 2
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How to convince more people to run Tor relays?

2

Comments

  • @jar said:
    There's no way to have a free speech platform that isn't abused by those with bad intent. The beautiful and the ugly have to go hand in hand. The ugly doesn't lessen the beauty, but it does make it hard for people to put themselves on the line to back it.

    Well the gun also has legitimate use but imagine if everyone is free to have gun no license needed or anything what you think is gonna happen ?

    Surely the world will become a Jungle exactly like TOR Jungle !

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    When negative elements overwhelm positives, it fails.

    Those who want to encourage us to deploy more Tor relays, remember that.

    Thanked by 1chihcherng
  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    @momkin said: Well the gun also has legitimate use but imagine if everyone is free to have gun no license needed or anything what you think is gonna happen ?

    Switzerland or Vermont. Man, those places are just horrific war zones...

    Thanked by 3jar Pwner wdmg
  • defaultdefault Veteran
    edited August 2020

    This may seem strange, but I have trust in humanity. I do not think that 80% of worldwide population is comprised of pedophiles. I do not think that even 0.1% of people are pedophiles; and not even 0.0001%. These types of deranged people are few, very few, and out of these very few people with serious mental issues in fantasies, only extremely few are so utterly deranged that they can actually go into actually harming children.

    Now I can't possibly believe that these few people with mental issues count for 80% of Tor network traffic. This either means that Tor is extremely small and unpopular, or it means that humanity has many many people with mental problems.

    I tend to think that just like many love to create fake news on different social networks or websites, it's same corporations and politicians who like to create fake news and fake reasoning, to manipulate the masses and slowly take control over internet (GFW, Russia's firewall, Germany's trojan in OS, Trump's monitoring law, secret agencies mirroring data centres traffic - OR - Google psychological profiles, Facebook with Cambridge Analytica, Cloudflare hosting many websites, and examples may continue).

    We need to fight for our privacy, and we need to trust one another. "In times of crisis, the wise build bridges, while the foolish build walls." (nigerian proverb)

    Meanwhile, the few pedophiles out there should urgently seek medical assistance in my opinion. Anyone searching for child porn online (with or without Tor) needs to seek psychological assistance, because there is no shame in seeking professional help. Nobody's perfect, but everyone can become better with modern medicine, as body and mind deteriorate through time, becoming older.

    Thanked by 2wdmg that_guy
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @default said: Now I can't possibly believe that these few people with mental issues count for 80% of Tor network traffic

    I could believe it if framed right. Like the average person who needs it for safety only using it for sensitive traffic, and those people using it daily. A journalist might need to send a message once a month, a creep might be living on the network. Just theory though, hard to really know.

    Thanked by 2kkrajk chihcherng
  • @default said:
    This may seem strange, but I have trust in humanity. I do not think that 80% of worldwide population is comprised of pedophiles. I do not think that even 0.1% of people are pedophiles; and not even 0.0001%. These types of deranged people are few, very few, and out of these very few people with serious mental issues in fantasies, only extremely few are so utterly deranged that they can actually go into actually harming children.

    Tor network doesn't only host pedophiles they host criminals in all kind pedophiles - Drug sellers - killers - Arms sellers ... and much more !

    The truth is if you run Tor relays you are helping the criminals of all kind .
    sure you can help one man to speak freely but you are also helping 10 other criminals do they dirty work .

    So what you will gain ?

    Thanked by 1chihcherng
  • On a serious note,

    If you want to convince someone to run tor relay,

    Maybe compile a list of host that allow that what is minimum cost that can get running one etc,...

    I know there is a list on torproject site but seems outdated and doesn't mention price or specs

    Thanked by 2lokuzard that_guy
  • @momkin said:

    Drug sellers - killers - Arms sellers ... and much more !

    and how can you trust a killer not to run away with your money?
    With drugs I understand trust can be built gradually, but with killers?!

  • @momkin said:
    The truth is if you run Tor relays you are helping the criminals of all kind .
    sure you can help one man to speak freely but you are also helping 10 other criminals do they dirty work .

    What are you basing those numbers on? How do you know you're not helping 9 people to speak freely and only 1 criminal? Criminals might use more bandwidth than journalists and those using it for safety for sensitive traffic.

  • @jaden said: The truth is if you run Tor relays you are helping the criminals of all kind .

    If you run a bank, you're helping criminals
    if you run a casino, you're helping criminals
    if you run a restaurant, you're feeding criminals
    if you pay taxes, you're funding the killing of others

    blah blah blah

    tor can and is used for good, and thats its intended purpose. If it didnt exist, crims would just use other technologies, but those that wan tto do good and remain anonymous, may well struggle to get their voice heard, that bit more.

  • @momkin said:
    Drug sellers - killers - Arms sellers ... and much more !

    The truth is if you run Tor relays you are helping the criminals of all kind .
    sure you can help one man to speak freely but you are also helping 10 other criminals do they dirty work .

    So what you will gain ?

    You do realize that they can very well use IRC for example, or some other obscure method of communication like steganography or whatever. Let's not assume that for every 1 innocent person looking for privacy, there are other 10 criminals communicating on how to kill or drug that 1 innocent. Society would not be evolved as it is, if we were that evil, because with such thinking we should have all been destroyed long ago.

    What I gain: helping privacy evolve, and not helping corporations and politicians take control. I love freedom of speech, because it supports intelligence and different ways of thinking.

    Thanked by 1that_guy
  • As others have said, many things in society have a negative impact. Smoking kills people and in countries with socialized medicine costs the taxpayer way more than any tax revenue. Gambling has social consequences. Guns, drugs, DUI, mobile phone use while driving, riding a bicycle without a helmet... all sorts of things we could get sidetracked into.

    In each case there is some type of balance between personal freedoms and the good of others in the community, and there is some type of accountability - sure, it can be argued that balance is off in some cases, but none of these things is totally uncontrolled. Sometimes they are balanced by laws, sometimes it is by community pressure/pubic shame, fear of economic loss, or whatever. The issue with Tor is that there's no rational discussion about where the balance lies.

    Advocates can indeed say that "in order to protect individuals and have freedom of speech anyone must be able to do anything", but in so doing they are already deciding for themselves where the balance lies - that the concerns of one group (e.g. journalists) will be considered and another (e.g. abuse victims) will be essentially ignored. People who disagree with that philosophically-driven balance will not want to participate, end of story.

    Thanked by 1chihcherng
  • vimalwarevimalware Member
    edited August 2020

    What sort of cpu requirements would running a relay entail? VPS: Single shared E5 cpu with 5TB transfer .
    If I cap it to 20mbit, what sort of load-avg would I be seeing?

  • DataIdeas-JoshDataIdeas-Josh Member, Patron Provider
    edited August 2020

    @MatthewM opened up a can of worms with this post.
    Tor traffic is not much different than VPN traffic. Just the layer of trust moves to someone you don't know. Rather than over VPNs.
    Both systems can be used for good and evil.

    Now to answer @MatthewM question. It is really up to the providers that allow said traffic on the network rather than people running the nodes.

  • @MatthewM: I remember the State of the Onion talks from 2014 and 2015 convinced me:
    State of the Onion (2014)
    State of the Onion (2015)
    Christopher Soghoian's talk at DEFCON 22 is also relevant.
    The good/bad/tradeoff arguments has are nearly the same as they were/are for encryption.

    @vimalware said: If I cap it to 20mbit, what sort of CPU load-avg would I be seeing?

    CPU usage would be negligible at 20 Mbits/s.

    @AlienData_Josh said: It is really up to the providers that allow said traffic on the network

    I don't think that's a question for any provider with open peering policy. However most providers here aim to be content providers, not traffic providers.

    Thanked by 2vimalware that_guy
  • @codelock said:
    On a serious note,

    If you want to convince someone to run tor relay,

    Maybe compile a list of host that allow that what is minimum cost that can get running one etc,...

    I know there is a list on torproject site but seems outdated and doesn't mention price or specs

    I already did so... https://worldofmatthew.com/post/tor-relay-webhosts-list/

    Thanked by 2lokuzard that_guy
  • The problem with Tor in general is not the computing resources, but the bandwidth. The more bandwidth, the better; sky is the limit.

  • wdmgwdmg Member, LIR

    @momkin said:

    @wdmg said:

    @momkin said:
    For me TOR is for criminals , i always block TOR IPS on my servers because nothing good comes from it except abuses ( child porn - terrorists - Violent )

    I hope TOR ends Soon , so the criminals will be left without a way to hide themselves!

    This is where I would believe you’re wrong. Tor has many legitimate use cases, and it’s unfortunate that shady actors abuse it with malicious intent.

    Alas, we shouldn’t prevent legitimate use cases (anti-censorship, journalists, etc) from not having a simpler bypass around spying, internet filters/restrictions, etc.

    There’s an unhealthy discrimination against Tor and it’s legitimate users. Let’s face it, even if Tor went away overnight, something would fork and take its place eventually.

    If you preemptively block it, you’re part of the problem.

    Yes it has some legitimate use but i believe 20% usage legitimate and the other 80% is only criminals .

    So i prefer the TOR to vanish it makes more damage than good !

    If you can’t value it’s existence to help disrupt censorship, spying/tracing, etc... then you should do some proper research and find out that lots of people use it legitimate.

    If you bought a bag of apples and there was 5 out of 20 apples bad, would you throw the entire bag away because it was “criminal” to have that many bad apples?

  • wdmgwdmg Member, LIR

    @jar said:

    @default said: Now I can't possibly believe that these few people with mental issues count for 80% of Tor network traffic

    I could believe it if framed right. Like the average person who needs it for safety only using it for sensitive traffic, and those people using it daily. A journalist might need to send a message once a month, a creep might be living on the network. Just theory though, hard to really know.

    That’s the beauty in data, it’s all about how you represent the numbers... what seems worse?

    10% of ALL gun owners have thought about shooting a wall.

    10,000,000 of ALL gun owners have thought about shooting a wall.

    There’s many ways to manipulate the data itself, but the point being that if someone seeks the know the data itself behind the reported number, do the research and find the true number... companies and governments that don’t release the underlying data are the real problem.

  • @default said:
    The problem with Tor in general is not the computing resources, but the bandwidth. The more bandwidth, the better; sky is the limit.

    The bandwidth requirements aren't that bad. For a medium sized relay you are fine with 500 TB included traffic per month.

    Thanked by 1TerensM
  • @user54321 said:

    @default said:
    The problem with Tor in general is not the computing resources, but the bandwidth. The more bandwidth, the better; sky is the limit.

    The bandwidth requirements aren't that bad. For a medium sized relay you are fine with 500 TB included traffic per month.

    Do you run this?if yes what are your monthly expenses?

  • user54321user54321 Member
    edited August 2020

    @codelock said:

    @user54321 said:

    @default said:
    The problem with Tor in general is not the computing resources, but the bandwidth. The more bandwidth, the better; sky is the limit.

    The bandwidth requirements aren't that bad. For a medium sized relay you are fine with 500 TB included traffic per month.

    Do you run this?if yes what are your monthly expenses?

    yes i run this, costs 180€ per month because incomming traffic is unmetered. But if you go with the big 3 you can get that a lot cheaper, same config at hetzner is 20€ without vat but you can't run exits there.

  • LeviLevi Member

    Any other benefits from running TOR beside karma point increase?

    Thanked by 1kkrajk
  • @LTniger said:
    Any other benefits from running TOR beside karma point increase?

    No, you get nothing in return. You just help privacy and anonymity online as a volunteer.

    Tor Project is not about you, or about your profits, it's about helping freedom and privacy online. This is non-profit.

  • LeviLevi Member

    @default said:

    @LTniger said:
    Any other benefits from running TOR beside karma point increase?

    No, you get nothing in return. You just help privacy and anonymity online as a volunteer.

    Tor Project is not about you, or about your profits, it's about helping freedom and privacy online. This is non-profit.

    I heard that darknet making few bucks. But yea, TOR seems is driven purely from volunteering (aside from those sneaky FBI exit nodes).

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    @wdmg said: 10% of ALL gun owners have thought about shooting a wall.

    10,000,000 of ALL gun owners have thought about shooting a wall.

    I shoot paper targets. Admittedly, some of them are hanging on walls. I guess in that case the wall is just an innocent bystander. I guess I'm part of the problem.

  • @LTniger said:
    Any other benefits from running TOR beside karma point increase?

    You can increase your Bitcoins by mitm at the exit node.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    A famous moment in LET history... @William is raided in Austria for child porn because he ran a TOR exit node:

    https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/6283/raided-for-running-a-tor-exit-accepting-donations-for-legal-expenses/p1

    With pictures from the raid:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20130125124648/http://raided4tor.cryto.net/

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Normally, I say a few ruin for everyone.

    In the case of Tor, it's almost everyone ruin for a few.

    Thanked by 1chihcherng
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