Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!


Kazakhstan begins nationwide HTTPS MITM, requiring everyone to install root certificate. - Page 2
New on LowEndTalk? Please Register and read our Community Rules.

All new Registrations are manually reviewed and approved, so a short delay after registration may occur before your account becomes active.

Kazakhstan begins nationwide HTTPS MITM, requiring everyone to install root certificate.

24

Comments

  • Shot2Shot2 Member

    @uptime said:
    with respect to Kazakhstan, I am now reminded that the most excellent Sci-Hub project began there in 2011.

    Most useful contribution by Kazakhstan to humankind.

    That, and urani^h^h^h potassium.

    Thanked by 2uptime dahartigan
  • Poor man's NSA - less powerful computers and experts, but trying to do the same thing the USA has been and is doing.

    Thanked by 2hostdare default
  • Are there any VPS in Kazakhstan?

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @ehhthing said:
    @jsg My main concern with this is that HTTPS MITM has never been done on a nationwide scale like this before. Mainly because MITM prevents apps that certificate pin from functioning. No government (save North Korea), has ever gone so far to spy on citizen communication, not even China. Now that Kazakhstan has started doing this, other countries may look at them and take them as an example.

    Is it really a countrywide MITM? Frankly, some american media reporting something about "Russia" (or one if its neighbours) IMO is about as trustworthy as a Kreml gazette reporting about something evil in the USA - read: not at all.

    ZDnet said:
    (right in its sub title): "Kazakh government first wanted to intercept all HTTPS traffic way back in 2016, but they backed off after several lawsuits."

    After subtracting the implied evil intention a simple fact remains: The Kazhak government could be - and was - stopped by lawsuites, which seems to indicate that they respect their courts. Not too bad for an "evil country", no?
    Now however they seem to have changed the laws and can finally do it. Uhm, what exactly is the news? The fact that (yet another) country (or more precisely their politicians) found a way to control communications? Sorry but that's no surprise, that happens in many countries.

    In fact, that might indicate that at least they do play their games openly while many western politicians blabla nicely and then act dirty behind the curtain.

    Next question: Can they really do arbitrary MITM? I don't think so. Fact is (one just needs to look closely and carefully) that they forced a root cert upon their citizens. That may feel like a MITM but it is not because the people know about it.
    Next question: Can they eavesdrop on all communication or even just at say 50%? Answer? Next to certain -> No. Simple reason: they don't have a multi billion $ NSA with tons and tons of equipment and people.

    Let me come back to the courts. This is well noted just an assumption but it seems to be reasonable: In 2016 they were stopped by courts. Therefore it seems reasonable to assume that if they now do something really evil their supreme court would have stopped it-

    In the end, again, I'm certainly not enchanted by any governmental eavesdropping, but the (maybe sad) fact is that most countries do that in one way or another, so my impression is that when Russia or similar countries do it, we just hear a lot more noise about it.

    @raindog308 said:
    The problem is that you're going to get evidence far, far easier in Western countries because the media is open. Not a whole lot of journalism criticizing government programs in, say, China.

    Russia, China, etc. are not even remotely in the same league in terms of civil liberties and freedom compared to the US, Canada, Japan, Western Europe, etc. Not saying Western democracies are perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I know where I'd rather live.

    I hope that you are right, seriously. I'm not so sure though. Just one example: in quite some european countries when a migrant rapes a woman and her family says that there should be way less migrants let into their country, then they, the victims are the "evil racists". Or look at the USA where almost all major media are obsessively against their president; sometimes I'm under the impression that that man could rain gold coins on the people and the media would find some point to nitpick and to attack him (disclaimer: I don't care about pro or anti Trump. I merely say what I observe).

    That is not to say that Russia or Kazhakstan are a paradise, but I think that we would be well advised to challenge and seriously inspect our "we are superior" beliefs. From what I see the major difference is not this or that country vs. another country but normal people vs. politicians.

    Thanked by 1bikegremlin
  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @buzzyLET said:
    Are there any VPS in Kazakhstan?

    Wrong question.

    Correct question: Is there any (communication) software that either is not based on SSL/TLS or doesn't require (or check) certificates? One (of quite some more) answer: libsodium and/or 25519 based crypto.

  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited July 2019

    jsg said: they can not possibly listen in on all communications

    Sorry, not true. There is hardware that is used that will actually capture, store and analyze every packet on a network. This would include hardware such as that designed by Niksun which is similar to the technology used by the government that has already been found in several large US datacenters, most specifically they have been shown in a few AT&T datacenter locations.

    For a small country like Kazakhstan I don't find it very difficult to believe they could track everyone in the country, especially since they probably fully control all ingress and egress traffic to/from the country. They are likely able to watch and track most of their people, or at least be able to pull information up about specific IPs as needed.

    I am not saying they get EVERY SINGLE packet, but with platforms like this having existed now for more than 20 years and being commercially available (to people with money), I wouldn't be surprised if they are to the point where they do actually capture most, if not all, the traffic of their people and this is just a fancy new function of that appliance (MITM).

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

    Thanked by 1uptime
  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @TheLinuxBug

    Please note that I didn't say "collect" but "listen". Collecting can be done by machines, listening not or only to a very limited degree.

    Also: How many countries actually have the storage capacity to store every form of communication (via TCP/IP) for any not insignificant period of time? The only one I know of is the USA (which is known to have enough money to throw at anything they want).

    Also, again: They force fed a root cert to their citizens, which means that they are quite limited (mainly https) in what they can eavesdrop on.

    My guess: they

    • want to be capable to listen in in a very limited number of cases, typically cases where their "FBI" or counter intelligence have solid suspicion.
    • are afraid about other states doing psyops to influence their citizens.
    Thanked by 1bikegremlin
  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited July 2019

    jsg said: Please note that I didn't say "collect" but "listen". Collecting can be done by machines, listening not or only to a very limited degree.

    I think the confusion here is, though, that the machine does all the analyzing for you. There isn't any listening needed. Simply all you do is put the IP your checking into the system and it builds a report on all the traffic it has seen for that user. Though I haven't seen and used their hardware for maybe 10 years now, I can say my last opportunity to check out these systems (Niksun), even 10 years ago, would lead me to believe with current technology that exists storing such metadata would not be as difficult / storage strained as you would expect. I assume it also wouldn't be very difficult to train the machine to look for specific patterns and notify you about them either.

    So, I will stipulate that I am sure no HUMAN actually has the ability to process / listen to all the traffic, but with the use of the tools and algorithms designed for the platform, it probably does not take much to build a report for any single IP or have it alert on some type of pattern.

    My guess is with SSL they can't as deeply inspect things as they want. However, once this MITM cert is in place, then any of those appliances can easily start parsing what would previously had been encrypted and not made it into the metadata. This means they can have it trigger on key words, searches, phrases, etc and notify them.

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

    Thanked by 2uptime Tumbleguy1
  • If you use mobile phone and pay with credit card - perhaps a social network or two on top - more than enough meta-data.

    The only difference ("problem"?) I see here is that someone else from US NSA could have access. The "evil ones", not "the good ones". :)

  • LeviLevi Member

    @jsg said:
    @TheLinuxBug

    Please note that I didn't say "collect" but "listen". Collecting can be done by machines, listening not or only to a very limited degree.

    Also: How many countries actually have the storage capacity to store every form of communication (via TCP/IP) for any not insignificant period of time? The only one I know of is the USA (which is known to have enough money to throw at anything they want).

    Also, again: They force fed a root cert to their citizens, which means that they are quite limited (mainly https) in what they can eavesdrop on.

    My guess: they

    • want to be capable to listen in in a very limited number of cases, typically cases where their "FBI" or counter intelligence have solid suspicion.
    • are afraid about other states doing psyops to influence their citizens.

    And here we go, psyops. The end is nigh.

    Thanked by 2vimalware uptime
  • Vova1234Vova1234 Member, Patron Provider
    edited July 2019

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited July 2019

    @Shot2 said:

    @uptime said:
    with respect to Kazakhstan, I am now reminded that the most excellent Sci-Hub project began there in 2011.

    Most useful contribution by Kazakhstan to humankind.

    It seems this is a personal project of someone who just by chance happened to be born and live there. Do not attribute to the state everything done by people who live inside its borders. Especially to a state like this.

    Thanked by 1uptime
  • Vova1234Vova1234 Member, Patron Provider

    @rm_ said:

    @Shot2 said:

    @uptime said:
    with respect to Kazakhstan, I am now reminded that the most excellent Sci-Hub project began there in 2011.

    Most useful contribution by Kazakhstan to humankind.

    It seems this is a personal project of someone who just by chance happened to be born and live there. Do not attribute to the state everything done by people who live inside its borders. Especially to a state like this.

    Simple people do not encounter the state. You yourself know everything and everywhere here.

    Thanked by 1uptime
  • Shot2Shot2 Member

    @rm_ said:
    It seems this is a personal project of someone who just by chance happened to be born and live there. Do not attribute to the state everything done by people who live inside its borders. Especially to a state like this.

    Wait, what, U mean Aaron Swartz was not Kazakhstani??? I am disappoint.

    Thanked by 1uptime
  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    @rm_ said:
    Do not attribute to the state everything done by people who live inside its borders.

    And vice versa, I suppose.

    The state of Confusion transcends all borders.

  • omelasomelas Member

    Can Kazakhstan ISPs afford this MITM thing without bankrupt themselves? It will need enormous amount of CPU power to do decrypt and reencrypt all internet traffic they see.

  • xaocxaoc Member

    @Vova1234 said:

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

    That's an insult to all the member states of the USSR and everyone else that engaged Japan/Italy/Germany in WW2. Plus i wouldn't call losing most of USSR's youth just to protect one man a win. :)

  • bikegremlinbikegremlin Member
    edited July 2019

    @xaoc said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

    That's an insult to all the member states of the USSR and everyone else that engaged Japan/Italy/Germany in WW2. Plus i wouldn't call losing most of USSR's youth just to protect one man a win. :)

    Nazi plan was to eliminate Jews, Gypsies and Slavs (among others), as impure / inferior races. So it was not about saving just one man. They wouldn't have just stopped if no one opposed them - quite the contrary.

    And it was a victory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Slavic_sentiment

    Thanked by 1hostdare
  • xaocxaoc Member

    @bikegremlin said:

    @xaoc said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

    That's an insult to all the member states of the USSR and everyone else that engaged Japan/Italy/Germany in WW2. Plus i wouldn't call losing most of USSR's youth just to protect one man a win. :)

    Nazi plan was to eliminate Jews, Gypsies and Slavs (among others), as impure / inferior races. So it was not about saving just one man. They wouldn't have just stopped if no one opposed them - quite the contrary.

    And it was a victory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Slavic_sentiment

    Most of the aggresors had a plan of their own during WW2, USSR being part of that group. As for the one man part, retreat was an option seeing as to how they got caught with their pants down, but no, that ego of his could not stand the fact that he failed so countless had to die just to protect some stone walls and one man. There were no victors in WW2, everyone lost and all that loss of life just because 4 "inhumans" decided to change some lines on a piece of paper(map)...

    Thanked by 1default
  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    bikegremlin said: Nazi plan was to eliminate Jews, Gypsies and Slavs (among others), as impure / inferior races. So it was not about saving just one man. They wouldn't have just stopped if no one opposed them - quite the contrary.

    Absolutely correct. The Nazis would have eliminated all Slavs and restocked the land with ethnic Germans.

    Just protesting, objecting, or "civil disobedience" would have delighted the Nazis...they were interested in eliminating the Slavs to a man and taking their land. Very different than your typical border dispute type of war where you have rational state actors operating with diplomatic boundaries.

    jsg said: want to be capable to listen in in a very limited number of cases, typically cases where their "FBI" or counter intelligence have solid suspicion.

    Speaking of Nazis, here's something to ponder...during the Nazi era, the Gestapo could not keep up with the flood of average citizens snitching on each other. Same thing thing was true in East Germany. They had far more leads than they could follow up on, so other than top-down directives ("eliminate this political opponent" etc.), a lot of bottom-up work was simply correlating whose names showed up the most.

    So perhaps the problem is not so much straining the vast ocean of telecommunications input but rather prioritizing targets and then using in-place capability to, er, investigate.

    The Nazis were doing it in a paper-and-pen era...even if Kazak technology is not cutting edge, it's still orders of magnitude more capable. Wikipedia says Kazakstan has about 18m people...that's not many from a tenge-per-citizen perspective (apparently, the tenge is the Kazak currency...I didn't know that either until I looked it up :-)

    Also, wondering how the cloud could impact all this. Nothing preventing the Kazaks from buying cloud capacity, either directly or under front companies. That makes it less of a "we need to build out our own infrastructure" issue and more of a simple "how much foreign currency do we have on hand" question.

    And of course, once you know you're being spied on, you assume everything you say is being recorded, which is its own form of repression.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @raindog308 said:
    Speaking of Nazis, here's something to ponder...during the Nazi era, the Gestapo could not keep up with the flood of average citizens snitching on each other. Same thing thing was true in East Germany. They had far more leads than they could follow up on, so other than top-down directives ("eliminate this political opponent" etc.), a lot of bottom-up work was simply correlating whose names showed up the most.

    So perhaps the problem is not so much straining the vast ocean of telecommunications input but rather prioritizing targets and then using in-place capability to, er, investigate.

    Maybe. We all can just speculate.

    The Nazis were doing it in a paper-and-pen era...

    Is that so? I seem to remember to have read that they had some IBM machines and support.

    even if Kazak technology is not cutting edge, it's still orders of magnitude more capable. Wikipedia says Kazakstan has about 18m people...that's not many from a tenge-per-citizen perspective (apparently, the tenge is the Kazak currency...I didn't know that either until I looked it up :-)

    Fewer people seems to translate to less work load (for the eavesdroppers) but it also translates to "far less intelligence people" (to process and evaluate the data).

    Also, wondering how the cloud could impact all this. Nothing preventing the Kazaks from buying cloud capacity, either directly or under front companies. That makes it less of a "we need to build out our own infrastructure" issue and more of a simple "how much foreign currency do we have on hand" question.

    I strongly doubt that they'll use a not 100% kazhak controlled cloud service.

    And of course, once you know you're being spied on, you assume everything you say is being recorded, which is its own form of repression.

    So, we in Europe and you in the USA and Canada feel repressed? I doubt that and I don't see any significant "I feel repressed" signs around myself.

    Maybe I'm too cold blooded techie, but I have learned in my field to try to see all sides. To provide an example: That kazhak project might also "wake up" a lot of Kazhaks who trusted their state authorities till now ("hmm, if they do this now probably they also listen in on phone conversations since years!").

    Be that as it may be I stick to my hypothesis -> They did respect the court decisions, so they are at least more trustworthy than quite some (incl. western) states who did/do such projects in the dark.

    I think the real problem is that the more any regime calls itself "democratic" the harder it is for them to do "undemocratic" things like spying on their citizens - at the same time there are good reasons and even necessities (in almost every state) to spy on citizens (e.g. to find terrorist cells, alien spies, etc.).

    I personally prefer the "undemocratic" slav style. They don't trumpet day and night about "democracy" while secretely doing "dirty" but necessary things.

    Remember Snowden and the "day the western world woke up to a shock"? Frankly, I prefer an "evil undemocratic regime" (like Russia) where the regime quite clearly tells me what my real position as a citizen is.

    And btw, again: it's all about a root cert - not about eavesdropping on everything.

    Thanked by 1bikegremlin
  • bikegremlinbikegremlin Member
    edited July 2019

    @xaoc said:

    @bikegremlin said:

    @xaoc said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

    That's an insult to all the member states of the USSR and everyone else that engaged Japan/Italy/Germany in WW2. Plus i wouldn't call losing most of USSR's youth just to protect one man a win. :)

    Nazi plan was to eliminate Jews, Gypsies and Slavs (among others), as impure / inferior races. So it was not about saving just one man. They wouldn't have just stopped if no one opposed them - quite the contrary.

    And it was a victory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Slavic_sentiment

    Most of the aggresors had a plan of their own during WW2, USSR being part of that group. As for the one man part, retreat was an option seeing as to how they got caught with their pants down, but no, that ego of his could not stand the fact that he failed so countless had to die just to protect some stone walls and one man. There were no victors in WW2, everyone lost and all that loss of life just because 4 "inhumans" decided to change some lines on a piece of paper(map)...

    I don't think this point of view is based on reality, nor facts.

    Germany invaded other countries - including mine. There was practically no other option than to fight back. Especially not for Slavs, Jews and Gypsies - either that, or the furnace. So better to at least make them work for it - though in the end they did get their asses kicked.

    Back to the topic:

    When Snowden came out with his info, what happened?
    Practically nothing.
    No riots, heads rolling, real policy changes. Nothing.

    As for the data analysis:
    There is analytical software. Which makes it easy to analyze and get the needed information.

    The main problem has been, in the past, getting meta data from videos, audio and images - things that are not made in a text format.

    But that has changed. You can see it with a slow Net connection when using Facebook: "this image contains John Doe, wearing glasses, a cat, a tree...".

    Google also has an excellent algorithm for analyzing data and estimating trends (how likely is one to be buying a new car this year, etc.).

    Add credit card info - with one's shopping habits. Sure it can be obtained with a court warrant in most countries. And I'm also sure saying "national security" to most judges (worldwide, including US and the EU) will get you a warrant.

    Mobile phones with geo-location - where you've been, who with.

    Alexa, Siri - on top...

    As far as liberties go - there is a country that put people in prison without a charge, or a trial, for indefinite length of time. Does that worry anyone?
    Doesn't get mentioned often.

    Thanked by 2uptime hostdare
  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    In this thread: just a wee splash of what-about-ism and what seems to me to be almost a caricature of similar Kremlin-style propaganda talking points.

    I am impress ... not!

    EDIT2: Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах

    EDIT3: I'm not talking about you @bikegremlin - I get where you are coming from, for the most part.

  • @uptime said:
    not talking about you @bikegremlin - I get where you are coming from, for the most part.

    You are the first one ever to say that - including the psychiatrists! :smiley:

    Thanked by 1uptime
  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    @bikegremlin said:

    @uptime said:
    not talking about you @bikegremlin - I get where you are coming from, for the most part.

    You are the first one ever to say that - including the psychiatrists! :smiley:

    psychiatrists may be the craziest of them all ...

    Perhaps suffice to say we live in a world where most governments do not represent their people. And ... I would (quite possibly) prefer if more people did not attempt so much to represent their so-called governments.

  • stefemanstefeman Member
    edited July 2019

    @uptime said:
    In this thread: just a wee splash of what-about-ism and what seems to me to be almost a caricature of similar Kremlin-style propaganda talking points.

    I am impress ... not!

    EDIT2: Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах

    EDIT3: I'm not talking about you @bikegremlin - I get where you are coming from, for the most part.

    What else did you expect from ... ?

    I bet he has an altar for Putin in his home. People like him must be raped with bukkake and tentacles.

  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    stefeman said: I bet he has an altar for Putin in his home. People like him must be raped with bukkake and tentacles.

    lol ... calm down there Satan.

    No need to get medieval up in here.

    Just having a "friendly" conversation and/or talking past someone who may or may not realize that they are representing a clownish bunch of talking points that have become easily recognized as echoes of a dubiously engineered propaganda campaign ...

    Might just note that another known technique to divert an otherwise productive discussion is to introduce a provocateur to advocate extreme positions and violence - although tentacles and bukkake add quite another dimension of weirdness so ... really not sure what to make of that one. Would this scenario possibly involve some little green men?

    EDIT2:

    All that said, it would be a welcome change to read more thoughtfully explained technical insights on the Kazakhstan MITM setup, and ways that people there might be able to avoid it - and less political troll-baiting. I'm going to try to step back from that as much as possible myself, so help me @Jesus.

    Thanked by 2vimalware ITLabs
  • xaocxaoc Member

    @bikegremlin said:

    @xaoc said:

    @bikegremlin said:

    @xaoc said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

    That's an insult to all the member states of the USSR and everyone else that engaged Japan/Italy/Germany in WW2. Plus i wouldn't call losing most of USSR's youth just to protect one man a win. :)

    Nazi plan was to eliminate Jews, Gypsies and Slavs (among others), as impure / inferior races. So it was not about saving just one man. They wouldn't have just stopped if no one opposed them - quite the contrary.

    And it was a victory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Slavic_sentiment

    Most of the aggresors had a plan of their own during WW2, USSR being part of that group. As for the one man part, retreat was an option seeing as to how they got caught with their pants down, but no, that ego of his could not stand the fact that he failed so countless had to die just to protect some stone walls and one man. There were no victors in WW2, everyone lost and all that loss of life just because 4 "inhumans" decided to change some lines on a piece of paper(map)...

    I don't think this point of view is based on reality, nor facts.

    Your reality and your facts.

    Germany invaded other countries - including mine.

    So has USSR(see the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and it`s consequences). Germany invaded USSR not because it contained Jews, Slavs and Roma(it contained countless other nationalities) but because the USSR was a threat as result of the violation of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @xaoc said:
    So has USSR(see the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and it`s consequences). Germany invaded USSR not because it contained Jews, Slavs and Roma(it contained countless other nationalities) but because the USSR was a threat as result of the violation of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

    Don't get me wrong but how on earth did we come to discussing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the question of guilt of WW2? I really fail to see any relevant connection to the OP topic.

    I think we should return to the present time. It provides really enough problems to discuss.

  • xaocxaoc Member

    @jsg said:

    @xaoc said:
    So has USSR(see the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and it`s consequences). Germany invaded USSR not because it contained Jews, Slavs and Roma(it contained countless other nationalities) but because the USSR was a threat as result of the violation of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

    Don't get me wrong but how on earth did we come to discussing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the question of guilt of WW2? I really fail to see any relevant connection to the OP topic.

    I think we should return to the present time. It provides really enough problems to discuss.

    It wasn't me mom!

Sign In or Register to comment.