Speculate on what will become of all the mining farms when the Crypto craze finally comes to an end.
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Speculate on what will become of all the mining farms when the Crypto craze finally comes to an end.

randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

I'm not convinced in the long term future of Crypto, so this question is obviously assuming that Cyrpto mining will eventually come to an end.

There are a lot of mining farms around, and new ones popping up all the time. Obviously if crypto becomes worthless, than the ASICs that mine them become nearly completely worthless and the GPUs on rigs will suffer massive depreciation.

But what of all the infrastructure that supports these miners? What becomes of these spaces, kitted out with massive amounts of power and ventilation/cooling?

Some can/will become normal data centers, but that will not always be viable.

Regardless of whether or not crypto sticks around, blockchain seems to something that will live on. Will these new blockchains still require some sort of 'mining' / 'proof of work'?

What else can become of these facilities?

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Comments

  • deankdeank Member
    edited June 9

    The end is always around a corner.

    One end arrives, and another end will be seen ahead.

    Believe in the end and join LET apocalypse cult today. Dial 1-666-666-6667 today to book your worse seat in the Hell.

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  • Shot2Shot2 Member

    All of this will end up at a landfill site, polluting water while rusting away because who cares, no profit to be made anymore.

    That's how it works with H. sapiens

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  • mkshmksh Member

    @randvegeta said:
    What else can become of these facilities?

    Illegal grow ops?

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  • @mksh said:

    @randvegeta said:
    What else can become of these facilities?

    Illegal grow ops?

    Canada's legalizing marijuana soon, so these mining facilities can be easily converted to marijuana farms or grow ops if they can't get their license.

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  • mkshmksh Member

    @TriJetScud said:

    @mksh said:

    @randvegeta said:
    What else can become of these facilities?

    Illegal grow ops?

    Canada's legalizing marijuana soon, so these mining facilities can be easily converted to marijuana farms or grow ops if they can't get their license.

    True. Depending on the location this might not even be all that silly. I fear a lot of those farms are in way more backwards countries though.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider
    edited June 9

    Some of them may be sold off for cheap, and spawn budget operations a la Datashack. Many of them will likely just be dismantled, scrapped for parts, and demolished or left to rot.

    The reality is that most 'mining farms' don't meet the safety and reliability standards that are expected for a professional datacenter. There's not a whole lot you can reuse mining farms for, specifically.

    EDIT: Weed grow ops is also possibly a good one, although the buildings won't necessarily be designed to withstand the humidity of one.

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited June 9

    My guess is that at least the bigger farms will be sold to and/or used by academia and industry. Some might serve some large gaming endeavours, mainly the GPU based ones.

    While I am absolutely sure that the whole crypto currency wave does have major political factors and reasons I don't know nearly enough about those and will hence not talk about those with one exception: to be accepted as and to really fullfill the role of a real currency crypto currencies needed to be accepted by major states.

    Another problem I see is that they actually have almost the same problems and flaws the old-style currencies had/have like fraud, speculation, etc but in part far worse. So I do not see the real advantage to society.

    The major issues I see however are of a technical nature. Many of the algorithms behind crypto currencies are far from verifiably secure and increasingly many attacks have been developped. Plus at least most implementation are poor and so are the oh so secure protocols.

    But of course a couple of thousand GPUs are attractive for diverse purposes like e.g. academia so I guess the major losses of the farmers won't be in hardware.

  • YuraYura Member
    edited June 9

    I will finally buy a graphics card. Dirt cheap!

    Mwuahahhahah

  • mkshmksh Member

    @jsg said:
    fullfill the role of a real currency crypto currencies needed to be accepted by major states.

    Wouldn't say so. Crypto currencies are as real as real currencies (often more real since they often at least backed by something even if that's just electricity it's not simply thin air). Currencies usually just gain value by the fact you can trade them for (buy) something and that's true for crypto. Also the currency of a tiny country doesn't become less of a currency just because no major state accepts them.

    Another problem I see is that they actually have almost the same problems and flaws the old-style currencies had/have like fraud, speculation, etc but in part far worse.

    Well, you can't really blame any currency for fraud. It's a social problem. As for speculation: I wouldn't know how to fix that short of removing trade or defining and outlawing it somehow.

    So I do not see the real advantage to society.

    Depends on your viewpoint i guess. I am not even much into crypto but ability of being hard to control has some interesting properties and hat one thinks of this is pretty much a political question.

  • HxxxHxxx Member

    I dont see crypto going out anytime soon. Some might argue that is the future.

  • williewillie Member
    edited June 9

    mksh said: Crypto currencies are as real as real currencies

    There's an economics concept (probably not universally accepted) that a "real" currency is something you can pay your taxes with. E.g. if you live in the UK, the GBP is a real currency with inherent value, since no matter what the rest of the world does, you can still pay your tax debts with them. BTC under that theory is more like a precious metal: of course you can exchange it for currency, but it doesn't count as currency itself, unless you can pay taxes with it directly. So its value could conceivably go all the way to zero.

  • redvi4redvi4 Member

    maybe AI farms. or render of video farm

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  • mkshmksh Member

    @willie said:

    mksh said: Crypto currencies are as real as real currencies

    There's an economics concept (probably not universally accepted) that a "real" currency is something you can pay your taxes with. E.g. if you live in the UK, the GBP is a real currency with inherent value, since no matter what the rest of the world does, you can still pay your tax debts with them. BTC under that theory is more like a precious metal: of course you can exchange it for currency, but it doesn't count as currency itself, unless you can pay taxes with it directly. So its value could conceivably go all the way to zero.

    Well, if that's the official definition i don't think i can't really argue with it but it has it sure has it's shortcomings. First it has this interesting bias. Might be just me but the thing i care for most in a currency is if it buys me food (which admittedly isn't really all that easy to acquire with crypto). Next if i move to the UK euros and dollars suddenly stop being currencies? That's ridiculous. Besides Bitcoin is nothing like a metal. Even precious metals have some actual use beyond being a trading item. What can you do with Bitcoins beyond trading them?

    Have to agree on the last point though. Being state issued and not influenced by exchange rates is an exceptional property. Besides maybe i should just keep quiet anyways as being accepted as actual currency would just mean more regulation.

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited June 9

    @mksh said:

    @jsg said:
    fullfill the role of a real currency crypto currencies needed to be accepted by major states.

    Wouldn't say so. Crypto currencies are as real as real currencies (often more real since they often at least backed by something even if that's just electricity it's not simply thin air).

    Again, I try to stay away from discussing the political side because it's not my field of expertise. That said, no, crypto currencies are NOT backed up by something because in the context of a currency "backed by" means to have the RIGHT to demand exchange against something of (more or less tangible) value with a (more or less) fixed exchange rate.
    But I get your point as most "normal" currencies aren't backed by much more than politicians and bankers talk too. But here I stop; I just don't know enough about that area.

    So I do not see the real advantage to society.


    Depends on your viewpoint i guess. I am not even much into crypto but ability of being hard to control has some interesting properties and hat one thinks of this is pretty much a political question.

    My point of view is shaped mainly by two factors: (a) the crypto behind most crypto currencies is questionable at best and often just poor [1], (b) Besides frankly small chicken like thousands of 8 GPU "farms" one needs VERY SERIOUS investment to become even a mid size player. Translation: Actually there isn't much that really has changed and what little has changed carries a hefty price tag as in "[some major crypto currency] hacked or broken, millions of people loosing billions of their money".

    [1] Maybe interesting for some: As coincidence has it I'm currently working (in my job) on "hardening" (read: transform into something actually safe in terms of code) an AEAD finalist reference implementation. And once more I see a problem that I've seen quite often: for the crypto guys (typically mathematicians) the ref. implementation typically is the ugly part of their work they don't like but hell it must be done and so they do it - usually in quite poor quality. At the other end there are the developers who use those very ref. implementations like some sacred manna from the heavens which is understandable because >> 95% of developers don't exactly love math plus there is the saying that mere mortals should never ever touch crypto (which is probably sensible advice).

    BUT: What I just described is the very gap of hell out of which creep programs with an unsafe software implementation. And indeed reality shows us again and again that the crypto (math) is usually safe but the implementations (software) are not.

    And rest assured that that holds true for virtually all crypto currencies too. I don't think it's a good idea to base very large amounts of what formertimes was money on something that is understood by very few and almost never engineered properly.

  • mkshmksh Member
    edited June 9

    @jsg said:
    My point of view is shaped mainly by two factors: (a) the crypto behind most crypto currencies is questionable at best and often just poor [1], (b) Besides frankly small chicken like thousands of 8 GPU "farms" one needs VERY SERIOUS investment to become even a mid size player.

    Well, it depends. With some of the major cryptos even a ton of GFX cards won't get you very far as ASICs are even more effective. Then you have cryptos that try to cripple GFX cards and/or ASICs. Those might be profitable for some time but will be sooner or later controlled by botnets. You are right though. There is no easy way for the average guy anymore to just print (any seizable amount of) money outside of very new cryptos that pretty much get released every single day but calling those highly speculative would be a severe understatement.

    Still mining is not the main purpose of cryptos. It's often needed to keep the network running and therefore is rewarded but cryptos aren't supposed to be the little guys bill press. They are trading items.

    Translation: Actually there isn't much that really has changed and what little has changed carries a hefty price tag as in "[some major crypto currency] hacked or broken, millions of people loosing billions of their money".

    Well, to be fair it's usually exchange sites and the like that get hacked. Haven't heard of a single case were any relevant crypto itself was broken but then i am not all that informed so it might have happend.

    [1] Maybe interesting for some: As coincidence has it I'm currently working (in my job) on "hardening" (read: transform into something actually safe in terms of code) an AEAD finalist reference implementation. And once more I see a problem that I've seen quite often: for the crypto guys (typically mathematicians) the ref. implementation typically is the ugly part of their work they don't like but hell it must be done and so they do it - usually in quite poor quality. At the other end there are the developers who use those very ref. implementations like some sacred manna from the heavens which is understandable because >> 95% of developers don't exactly love math plus there is the saying that mere mortals should never ever touch crypto (which is probably sensible advice).

    True words. Let's say i know a little bit about programming but my math skills are downright horrible which is not unlikely related to the fact that i dislike maths.

    BUT: What I just described is the very gap of hell out of which creep programs with an unsafe software implementation. And indeed reality shows us again and again that the crypto (math) is usually safe but the implementations (software) are not.

    And rest assured that that holds true for virtually all crypto currencies too. I don't think it's a good idea to base very large amounts of what formertimes was money on something that is understood by very few and almost never engineered properly.

    I am not disagreeing here. Not at all. I view all cryptos including the major ones as highly experimental software and i think it's safe to assume that at least some of them are developed by people that don't have the slightest idea about what they are doing. But from there it's a question of calculating risk.

    I know that i won't get further than partly understanding the matter, the protocols are complex, the code is (even if i can read it) usually not exactly small and the maths are beyond me. That's a risk in itself on top of the risk that investing in any given crypto might pose. Will i still do it? It's up to me. Is it my fault if i lose my investment? Very much.

    What i am trying to say here is: I like options. Some might be stupid, some might be dangerous and some downright suicidal. If someone decides to go all in on something which he knows he doesn't fully comprehend and loses it's because he did so not because he was given to opportunity to do so. It's the downside of freedom. You often have noone to blame but yourself.

  • williewillie Member
    edited June 9

    mksh said: Well, if that's the official definition

    I don't think it's an "official" definition in terms of there being a law saying anything like that. It's a definition used by some (not all) economists use as a basis of the theorizing that they do. It leads to a bunch of policy prescriptions that go against a lot of the stuff we hear on TV. Maybe they're right, maybe not.

    mksh said: Next if i move to the UK euros and dollars suddenly stop being currencies?

    Yeah I'm not sure how that would fit in. Dollars and euros are presumably not legal tender in the UK, i.e. you have to exchange them to GBP before you can settle debts with them. They're still currency in the sense that they're backed by their ability to settle existing tax bills in the countries that use them. GBP vs Euro was specifically an issue when the UK joined the EU.

    They wanted to keep using the GBP instead of switching to the Euro, because that gave their govts more policy flexibility (they could decide things that made the GBP fluctuate against the Euro, with less immediate domestic effect than if they had joined the Euro, eliminating the possibility of fluctuation).

    That last bit came up in the news reporting about Brexit: if the UK drops out of the EU and tries to rejoin sometime later, the boffins (think that's the right Britishism) claim they will have to ditch the GBP in order to do so. Who knows, though.

  • deankdeank Member

    I am just waiting for the day Mr. Trump releases Trumpoin.

    The first thing a new host lies about: "We" when it's "Me".

  • mkshmksh Member

    @deank said:
    I am just waiting for the day Mr. Trump releases Trumpoin.

    Believe it or not at some point there seems to have been a SilvioBerlusCoin. https://deadcoins.com/ has some real gems.

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  • jsgjsg Member
    edited June 10

    How bloody not funny: As if they wanted to provide proof for my statement above:

    I just found a critical buffer overflow in one of the AEAD finalists that might soon be found in millions of computers.

    Short story: AEAD is basically symmetric crypto with included checksum, so something like AES with built-in SHA256 (plus not encrypted but checksummed associated data but that's not important here). Obviously the checksum needs some room too and is typically appended after the encrypted message. In this case it's 16 bytes long. The faulty routine mixed up just 1 letter in a variable name and such in one error handling situation wrote into the buffer for the DECRYPTED message but with a length that's 16 bytes too large.

    No chance to find that error unless someone knowing well what he's doing is working through the whole code (luckily just well below 100K source) and also uses verifier tools (in this case some LLVM/clang based static verifier).

    Now think what happens in massively longer crypto currency sources most of which are not even minimally verified and frankly written by people far less capable than the AEAD teams!

    Crypto currency? Thanks no, keep it.

    P.S. In case anyone is interested, here's the code fragment:

          if( 0 != memcmp_const(Final, Tag, sizeof(Tag)) ) {
             #ifdef CHKDC
                array_ptr<uint8_t> mtmp : count(*m_len) = message;
                memset((char *) mtmp, 0, *m_len);
             #else
    /**** Attention !!! buffer overflow BUG !!! ****************
          Original version was      
                memset( message, 0, c_len);
          But c_len >= *m_len + 16
          Corrected version: */
                memset( message, 0, *m_len);
             #endif
                return -1;
          }// if memcmp error
    

    (the CHKDC clause is my verifier code, don't care. The beef is after "** Attention")

  • irmirm Member
    edited June 10

    @joepie91 said:
    EDIT: Weed grow ops is also possibly a good one, although the buildings won't necessarily be designed to withstand the humidity of one.

    Weed plants in veg thrive at higher humidity (60-70%) while flower rooms are ideally kept at
    ~35-50% but pretty much any serious grow op attempts to limit waste as much as possible and one of the things they should be doing if they're not doing so already is to run massive dehumidifiers to dial in the humidity for their rooms so they can collect excess water which will then be reused for the plants.

    Some grows operate at ridiculous efficiency with their reclamation systems filtering nutrient water for reusal and the water their dehumidifiers collect daily.

    Wouldn't be difficult at all to accomplish this for anyone looking to convert a space to a grow.

  • doghouchdoghouch Moderator

    @joepie91 said:
    EDIT: Weed grow ops is also possibly a good one, although the buildings won't necessarily be designed to withstand the humidity of one.

    If Flex Tape can keep a boat together, I’m sure that it can keep the building up in one piece!

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  • dergelbedergelbe Member

    Here is a case from Germany, not exactly sure how true all details are, but it's all plausible: Somebody build a bio-gas generator next to a farm, this is a plant that literally make shit into money. The re-sell of the energy didn't really worked out as planned so they had to think of other ideas to use it. They came up with growing shitake mushrooms in Germany. It was quite a success. Not sure how they do now.

    I read about another farm in Germany that build a shrimp farm (shrimps need warm water, and to heat (or cool) water costs lots of energy).

    There are quite a lot of things you can do with cheap energy.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    dergelbe said: There are quite a lot of things you can do with cheap energy.

    Well cheap energy is one thing, but that's not really part of the question.

    A byproduct of mining (and data centers in general) is heat. This heat can be collected and used for applications where you would normally need to pay for heating. So if you can channel the heat, it's useful for 'growing' things, or for heating actual swimming pools and lots of other things. Since the heat is being generated any way, it's normally relatively cheap to collect this heat.

    But in the absense of miners/servers to actually generate that heat, I don't see how the infrastructure of the mining farm / data center will benefit those heat intensive applications. It's not so much the energy used to power the DC is cheap as it is the byproduct of heat is cheap compared to actually powering heaters.

    Moving on...

    During the dotcom boom of the late 90s and early 2000s, there was a massive amount of infrastructure built out, and after the bubble burst, what was left behind basically became internet infrastructure. Despite the massive losses to some (many?) investors, there is no doubt that the leftover infrastructure had great value.

    I've been trying to figure out what benefits may come about from the leftovers of this crypto bubble. GPUs may have some broad applications perhaps, and for some time, maybe all this GPU power will be used to help animators and 3D modellers with renderings. Or be used in AI research? I have no idea. Just a thought.

    You know it's kind of funny that people are suggesting that these mining farms may become good grow rooms for weed. I would imagine for the same amount of power and space, a weed should already be more profitable than mining, no?

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  • A few uses I can think of:

    • shelters for climate refugees

    • warehouses for all the excess goods produced and which can't be sold due to Trump's trade wars

    @jsg the bitcoin core team for one is very capable. they've found bugs in openssl for instance.

  • mkshmksh Member

    @jsg said:
    Crypto currency? Thanks no, keep it.

    Well, shouldn't that rather be:

    Anything written in C? Thanks no, keep it.

    It's just the good old C dilemma. Great language but awfully easy to shoot yourself in the foot with. While i agree math guys might produce exceptionally shoddy code in my opinion anyone who proclaims he can write any siezable amount of C code and be reasonably sure to not introduce any kind of critical bug should get a head check. As for avoiding C, well, that would basically translate to avoiding computers in general.

  • The whole crypto(currency) craze in 2011-2012 triggered some internal heuristic filter in my brain for 'iamverysmart' and made me stay far away.

    Historically, any Real 'right' to have your token be accepted by others, directly or indirectly flows out of the barrel of a gun(reference : mao: the bloody one)

    Guess we'll see soon if society arrives at a fresh concensus on whether crypto is a weapon or not (like the 3LAs insist)

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  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

    randvegeta said:

    I've been trying to figure out what benefits may come about from the leftovers of this crypto bubble. GPUs may have some broad applications perhaps, and for some time, maybe all this GPU power will be used to help animators and 3D modellers with renderings. Or be used in AI research? I have no idea. Just a thought.

    There's already quite a bit of GPU churn, in the quest for ever-better ROIs. I don't see the 'death of cryptocurrency' being a significant factor in increasing the rate of ex-mining cards ending up on the second-hand market, with or without a poorly-built datacenter attached.

  • BlaZeBlaZe Member, Provider

    Machine Learning?

    The GPUs can be utilized for machine learning.

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  • sunnygsunnyg Member
    edited June 10

    I hope Bitcoin/Ethereum prevail and go mainstream for payment processing. I just received £1800 payment on Paypal, and guess how much the seller fee was? £88... And I still run the risk of being disputed over the course of the next 6 months or charge-backed over the next 12 months. With Bitcoin, how much would the seller fee be? Zero... How much would the transaction fee be for the customer to send the BTC/ETH payment? £0.50 at best... Personally I could care less about the price of the actual coin, I was surprised back in 2013 that Bitcoin had 100x the value of a Dollar, now it is 7000x and it feels a little less ridiculous some how.

  • pikepike Member
    edited June 10

    @mksh said:
    Illegal grow ops?

    Makes me remember cyberbunker case in holland. Dutch SWAT found a decent weed farm and a lab which was used to produce mdma. I wonder what they do now in their new german facility.

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited June 10

    @Abdussamad said:
    @jsg the bitcoin core team for one is very capable. they've found bugs in openssl for instance.

    That's an indicator of capability but not more. There are indicators pointing in the other direction, too.

    @mksh said:

    @jsg said:
    Crypto currency? Thanks no, keep it.

    Well, shouldn't that rather be:

    Anything written in C? Thanks no, keep it.

    Theoretically, yes. Practically though we need an OS, don't we? Another very major factor at least for me is that e.g. Unix and Windows were created in merrily ignorant old times. So, Unices for example can be forgiven for not throwing away all their work and starting fresh at least in my opinion.

    The crypto currencies though are youngster and where created when it was already very well known how problematic C and C++ (and frankly most commonly used languages) are. So I feel it's alright to judge them in a much harder way than say Unices. I have btw. (a) looked at both some crypto currency code and designs and (b) worked in crypto heavy security projects myself and have a pretty good understanding of what I'm talking about. Most didn't give a damn about safety. Marketing bla bla, yes, but MUCH harder work in the coding workshop, nope.

    It's just the good old C dilemma. Great language but awfully easy to shoot yourself in the foot with. While i agree math guys might produce exceptionally shoddy code in my opinion anyone who proclaims he can write any siezable amount of C code and be reasonably sure to not introduce any kind of critical bug should get a head check. As for avoiding C, well, that would basically translate to avoiding computers in general.

    For a start the code of the math guys is usually not exceptionally shoddy. It's just not up to par considering the field. Btw. it's usually not the crypto guys writing the code themselves. Pretty much all the well established ones are at least associate professors and can hand the coding work to e.g. someone doing his master grad. Typically those guys aren't very experienced but they are smart and they are more or less good coders.

    Also keep in mind that they are not free to choose their language. Typically the competition rules ask for C which makes sense because in that field you need a language that is relatively close to the iron plus omnipresent on all architectures.

  • randvegeta said: I'm not convinced in the long term future of Crypto, so this question is obviously assuming that Cyrpto mining will eventually come to an end.

    Cryptocurrency will outlive your hosting aspirations

    Why are we still allowing bypassing AUP/TOS (Netflix) requests? We're one thread pull away from being HF.

  • mkshmksh Member

    @jsg said:

    @mksh said:

    @jsg said:
    Crypto currency? Thanks no, keep it.

    Well, shouldn't that rather be:

    Anything written in C? Thanks no, keep it.

    Theoretically, yes. Practically though we need an OS, don't we?

    That's pretty much what i was hinting at with avoiding C would translate to avoiding computers.

    Another very major factor at least for me is that e.g. Unix and Windows were created in merrily ignorant old times. So, Unices for example can be forgiven for not throwing away all their work and starting fresh at least in my opinion.

    The crypto currencies though are youngster and where created when it was already very well known how problematic C and C++ (and frankly most commonly used languages) are. So I feel it's alright to judge them in a much harder way than say Unices. I have btw. (a) looked at both some crypto currency code and designs and (b) worked in crypto heavy security projects myself and have a pretty good understanding of what I'm talking about. Most didn't give a damn about safety. Marketing bla bla, yes, but MUCH harder work in the coding workshop, nope.

    I see where you are coming from and while i might not be all that concerned with using C in general i wholeheartedly have to agree on the last part. A lot of crypto projects are nothing more than 105% marketing garbage. Sometimes to the point of not even being an actual project but just a couple of colorful advertizing graphics. Expecting any kind of quality control there is what i'd call wishful thinking at best.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    @doughmanes said:

    randvegeta said: I'm not convinced in the long term future of Crypto, so this question is obviously assuming that Cyrpto mining will eventually come to an end.

    Cryptocurrency will outlive your hosting aspirations

    What aspirations?

  • raindog308raindog308 Moderator

    irm said: Wouldn't be difficult at all to accomplish this for anyone looking to convert a space to a grow.

    As you point out, though, there are already plenty of purpose-built highly efficient operations.

    I'm only familiar with North America, but it's not like the marijuana market is a land of opportunity right now. I live in a state where it's legalized (which borders two other states where it's legal) and marijuana is silly cheap here - like $3/gm plus specials plus loyalty rewards plus someone's always going out of business. On my 12-mile commute to work I pass more than 40 marijuana retailers, and that's mostly along one road. Many of these retail spaces have had multiple tenants because everyone opens a pot shop and then goes out of business in six months. Most of these places over hundreds of varieties, and they're all 80-90% pure THC. Or pure CBD if you prefer.

    Etc. There is a TON of high-grade, dirt cheap marijuana in the western US. Which means there's a ton of high-grade, dirt cheap marijuana everywhere because if you can't make a profit selling to local dispensaries, you can make a fortune selling underground. It's grown by the acre now.

    Good luck turning your DogeCoin farms into grow farms...

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  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

    sunnyg said: With Bitcoin, how much would the seller fee be? Zero... How much would the transaction fee be for the customer to send the BTC/ETH payment? £0.50 at best...

    Until the transaction congestions are fully solved, you should expect transaction fees that are at least an order of magnitude higher than that, if not more.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    @joepie91 said:

    sunnyg said: With Bitcoin, how much would the seller fee be? Zero... How much would the transaction fee be for the customer to send the BTC/ETH payment? £0.50 at best...

    Until the transaction congestions are fully solved, you should expect transaction fees that are at least an order of magnitude higher than that, if not more.

    Solutions already exist. Just need to be adopted.

  • sunnygsunnyg Member

    @joepie91 said:

    sunnyg said: With Bitcoin, how much would the seller fee be? Zero... How much would the transaction fee be for the customer to send the BTC/ETH payment? £0.50 at best...

    Until the transaction congestions are fully solved, you should expect transaction fees that are at least an order of magnitude higher than that, if not more.

    My 20sat/byte payments (£0.15) get mined in the very next block. If that is supposed to be on a congested network, I'm excited to see what Bitcoin has in store next :)

  • jhjh Member

    If it's anything like deserted petrol stations, my guess is hand car washes.

    Greetings of the day!!!!

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider
    edited June 10

    @randvegeta said:

    @joepie91 said:

    sunnyg said: With Bitcoin, how much would the seller fee be? Zero... How much would the transaction fee be for the customer to send the BTC/ETH payment? £0.50 at best...

    Until the transaction congestions are fully solved, you should expect transaction fees that are at least an order of magnitude higher than that, if not more.

    Solutions already exist. Just need to be adopted.

    No, they don't. All the existing solutions are subject to specific operational limitations; they either only work in specific circumstances, or they require a particular 'user investment' (eg. escrow sum) that makes it unsuitable for many cases, or they require a persistent connection to the network, or they provide reduced security, or...

    The fundamental underlying problem, namely unspent balance (UTXO) bloat, has not been solved. That problem is why the block size limit exists, and even that limit is just a temporary mitigation that doesn't solve the long-term storage requirements issues.

    @sunnyg said:

    @joepie91 said:

    sunnyg said: With Bitcoin, how much would the seller fee be? Zero... How much would the transaction fee be for the customer to send the BTC/ETH payment? £0.50 at best...

    Until the transaction congestions are fully solved, you should expect transaction fees that are at least an order of magnitude higher than that, if not more.

    My 20sat/byte payments (£0.15) get mined in the very next block. If that is supposed to be on a congested network, I'm excited to see what Bitcoin has in store next :)

    The current congestion isn't what I'm talking about. The inherent congestion problems in the current design, are.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    joepie91 said: No, they don't.

    Yes they do. Move small transactions off the block chain and you need not worry about congesting the network.

    There are no blockchain solutions. Blockchain does not scale, no matter what you do. The only solution is to move transactions off the blockchain and accept semi centralization. This is not a big deal IMO. Though blockchains in themselves are 'trustless', you still need to trust the 3rd party (or parties) you are dealing with. If you imagine a solution where almost all sub $50 transactions are done off-chain, then the risk is minimal, cost is tiny, and transaction speed is near instant (much faster than block time).

    It's really quite a simple concept, and solves BTC's scalability problem entirely.

  • AidanAidan Member

    randvegeta said: What becomes of these spaces, kitted out with massive amounts of power and ventilation/cooling?

    Most would qualify as semi-decent warehouses & would likely be rebranded as such.

    Seeing as we're talking about a couple of dozen large buildings, there'll be no net effect.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    Aidan said: Most would qualify as semi-decent warehouses & would likely be rebranded as such.

    I suspect alot of places started out as warehouses. Power infra is also not used at all for warehousing.

  • AidanAidan Member

    I suspect alot of places started out as warehouses. Power infra is also not used at all for warehousing.

    Italian loaves are stored at negative 60'C, which uses a fair amount of power.

    The world's a big place, I'm sure other industries would gladly absorb the warehousing space.

  • @sunnyg said:
    I hope Bitcoin/Ethereum prevail and go mainstream for payment processing. I just received £1800 payment on Paypal, and guess how much the seller fee was? £88... And I still run the risk of being disputed over the course of the next 6 months or charge-backed over the next 12 months. With Bitcoin, how much would the seller fee be? Zero... How much would the transaction fee be for the customer to send the BTC/ETH payment? £0.50 at best... Personally I could care less about the price of the actual coin, I was surprised back in 2013 that Bitcoin had 100x the value of a Dollar, now it is 7000x and it feels a little less ridiculous some how.

    I am afraid, that is not a valid comparison. On the other hand, if you accepted cash, you'd have 0 costs.

    You are comparing a commercial service vs block-chain (kinda like open source).

    Of course with Paypal, the buyer gets protection, would the same buyer be willing to pay the same price if all protection is removed? Just like buying a mobile phone from grey market vs official outlet, you pay less but you have no warrant.

    PS: £88 on £1,800 is nearly 4.88%, which is very high!

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Provider

    @randvegeta said:

    joepie91 said: No, they don't.

    Yes they do. Move small transactions off the block chain and you need not worry about congesting the network.

    There are no blockchain solutions. Blockchain does not scale, no matter what you do. The only solution is to move transactions off the blockchain and accept semi centralization. This is not a big deal IMO. Though blockchains in themselves are 'trustless', you still need to trust the 3rd party (or parties) you are dealing with. If you imagine a solution where almost all sub $50 transactions are done off-chain, then the risk is minimal, cost is tiny, and transaction speed is near instant (much faster than block time).

    It's really quite a simple concept, and solves BTC's scalability problem entirely.

    I've seen exactly zero off-chain transaction mechanisms that could replace on-chain transactions in full, without limitations or additional requirements. If you know of one, I'll gladly look at it...

  • WilliamWilliam Member, Provider
    edited June 11

    Why speculate? This happens daily. Power costs go up and miners move.

    90% of these are just industrial warehouses, much like Cocius datacenters in Romania, they either will be used for storage again or stay, as probably before, empty.

    randvegeta said: I suspect alot of places started out as warehouses. Power infra is also not used at all for warehousing.

    A normal house in Europe has at least 100A on 1 phase, if not 3 phase (way more common). My flat has 100A.

    I've never seen a warehouse with less than at least a single 100A 380V 3 phase feed - it simply makes no sense wire less, you will have at least one 380V device and thus get 3 phase and practically many hundred A more if desired easily.

    Thanked by 1Aidan
  • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider

    So who wants to sell me a used GTX 1080 for cheap?

    Thanked by 1TriJetScud
  • WilliamWilliam Member, Provider

    MikeA said: So who wants to sell me a used GTX 1080 for cheap?

    No, but i have tons of 470s/480s with near dead memory. They would be useful if AMD had something like Cuda, Vulkan is more of game obviously and OpenGL is useless.

    Nvidia cards have only lost resale value since they have stock again available, same as AMD, so you probably pay now the same or similar for an expensive used to a cheap new one. A cheap used one will probably rare to find, mining is still profitable.

    Thanked by 1vimalware
  • williewillie Member

    AMD has HIP (ROCm) which is like Cuda but it's not ready for prime time yet. They are waking up to the necessity for this now, so it will probably work better soon. New hardware from them is also coming.

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