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LeaseWeb: Weird billing practice - Page 2
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LeaseWeb: Weird billing practice

245

Comments

  • pullangcubopullangcubo Member
    edited May 2018

    @elos42 said:
    They offer only monthly terms for VPSes.

    No, I think you can sign up for 1, 3, 6, 12, 24, and 36 month contracts

  • solairesolaire Member
    edited May 2018

    elos42 said: You don't really get it. In today's world, you can't rely on such 'gotchas' in the contract to get people to pay for more than 1 month at a minimum, when your rivals are charging by the hour.

    No, you don't get it. I understand your point, but the fact that your opinion suits most hosting providers way of working, doesn't automatically make it a rule of any kind. What they're doing is perfectly legal, and just because it doesn't suit your expectations doesn't make it "weird", uncommon at most.

    As a fellow Dutchy, I can confirm that this is a common way to sell services in the Netherlands, and Europe in general. If I sign up for a mobile contract on a 1 month term, and I don't pay after 1 month then my contract doesn't get automatically terminated. I have to call them, or send them a letter, to say that I wish to cancel my service. With Leaseweb, all you apparently have to do is press a button that says "cancel my service".

    I've had a similar experience with Virmach, they charged me because I didn't terminate my service and assumed they'd cancel it on non-payment. I was wrong, I learned a lesson and I paid the invoice.

    It's only 10$. Much more expensive lessons are inevitable.

  • elos42elos42 Member
    edited May 2018

    It's not really $10. More like $7 because it's a part payment for April.

    But just because something is 'normal' in Europe doesn't make it a rule of some kind elsewhere.

    What matters is the written contract. I didn't find this rule about 'what you pay initially will only be counted towards the second month's fees' bit in the contract. Did you?

    @Falzo Your question is irrelevant, because according to them, my first term is from May 1 to May 30, not from April 8 or whatever. The usage in April is covered by what they call a 'one-time fee'. So I can't cancel before the end of first term and not expect to pay for April or May.

    Like someone said, this would have been perfectly fine if I'd continued for more than two months.

  • solairesolaire Member

    elos42 said: But just because something is 'normal' in Europe doesn't make it a rule of some kind elsewhere.

    It does, because if you're doing business with a company in Europe, you are subject to laws they need to comply with. Same goes for me if I were to do business with a company outside of Europe. If you don't want anything to do with European regulations, simply don't do business with European companies or inhabitants.

    elos42 said: What matters is the written contract. I didn't find this rule about 'what you pay initially will only be counted towards the second month's fees' bit in the contract. Did you?

    This is simply the way a contract is designed to work. A contract stays in place, unless terminated by either party (or a judge). Just because companies like OVH put a clausule in the contract stating that they terminate the contract on non-payment doesn't make this standard practice.

  • For the people saying this is normal in Europe, it's not.
    Telecoms that were mentioned in this topic, bill you in partials as well, and they bill you in a linear timeline. So that explanation leaseweb gave is not a common one. Besides telecoms usualy add a minimum contract lengt of x months, with penalties. Not the same as what the OP sign up to here.

    And by the way, in my short lifespan, I am yet to see a company pursuing a $10 bill. The cost are just not worth it, and debt collectors can't just do what you peeps say they do.

    Maybe I should move to the UK.

  • PieHasBeenEatenPieHasBeenEaten Member, Host Rep

    Really you are making this so hard and stop over thinking it. You didn't press the cancel button on the website. You owe money pay it. It is very relevant that you didnt cancel your properly services as @falzo pointed out.

  • solairesolaire Member

    404error said: Telecoms that were mentioned in this topic, bill you in partials as well, and they bill you in a linear timeline. So that explanation leaseweb gave is not a common one. Besides telecoms usualy add a minimum contract lengt of x months, with penalties. Not the same as what the OP sign up to here.

    No, that's only for lengthy contracts (6+ months). Tele2 Netherlands for example does offer monthly contracts with no penalty or anything if you cancel. Admittedly, you pay an additional 2 euro per month. But you can cancel anytime.

  • @solaire said:

    404error said: Telecoms that were mentioned in this topic, bill you in partials as well, and they bill you in a linear timeline. So that explanation leaseweb gave is not a common one. Besides telecoms usualy add a minimum contract lengt of x months, with penalties. Not the same as what the OP sign up to here.

    No, that's only for lengthy contracts (6+ months). Tele2 Netherlands for example does offer monthly contracts with no penalty or anything if you cancel. Admittedly, you pay an additional 2 euro per month. But you can cancel anytime.

    Sounds good, I'd actually be happy to pay that extra 2 euro instead of being tied for 12 to 24 months while watching better promos get by me on a regular basis.

    But that doest explain what leaseweb does. It really is a weird billing procedure. Bill may to later bill April.
    And their TOS doesn't seems to reflect that procedure.

  • ShazanShazan Member, Host Rep

    @404error said:
    But that doest explain what leaseweb does. It really is a weird billing procedure. Bill may to later bill April.

    There's nothing weird, OP paid first month and what is called "prorata".

  • NekkiNekki Veteran

    @Shazan said:

    @404error said:
    But that doest explain what leaseweb does. It really is a weird billing procedure. Bill may to later bill April.

    There's nothing weird, OP paid first month and what is called "prorata".

    In all fairness, it is unusual; normally, you would expect a pro-rata period to be billed either first or alongside the first full month.

    Thanked by 2Clouvider 404error
  • kkrajkkkrajk Member
    edited May 2018

    Nekki said: No, they’ll sell the debt to a local collection agency, who will then add their fees onto the $10.

    True in Europe or elsewhere. Fortunately, in India, we are a bit protected against unethical charging on debt collection. The (edit debtor ) creditor is owed the debt, the charges/loss of income opportunity due to non payment of debt has to **justified **in a civil court or in a govt established alternative redressal forum

    See above justified. In this case, leaseweb can never justify the debt nor its loss of income opportunity

  • deankdeank Member, Troll
    edited May 2018

    Ever watched UK's show "Can't pay We will take it away"?

    The show shows a lot of cases where people ignored parking tickets that came back to bite their butt few years later. What was originally slightly over 100 euro came back as 1600 fine with a high court writ.

    Watching their reactions..., fun show.

  • @Shazan said:

    @404error said:
    But that doest explain what leaseweb does. It really is a weird billing procedure. Bill may to later bill April.

    There's nothing weird, OP paid first month and what is called "prorata".

    It's not the case of a prorated bill, if we go by the OP's narrative...that's why it is weird:

    @elos42 said:
    So I ask them what that's for. This is what they said:

    You ordered your VPS in early April, and paid for 1 month upfront. But that payment was for the period from May1 to May 31. You haven't paid us for April!

    So I said, I have canceled for May. I don't want it for May. So they're like: "Doesn't matter, the money you paid us initially was for May. But you used in April. Pay us for April."

  • ShazanShazan Member, Host Rep

    I suppose they calculated the pro-rata after the first payment for the full month of May. Yes, it is unusual but I don't see much of a problem here.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    @elos42 said:
    You don't really get it. In today's world, you can't rely on such 'gotchas' in the contract to get people to pay for more than 1 month at a minimum, when your rivals are charging by the hour.

    It makes zero business sense.

    "I signed a 30-year mortgage for my house and after a year I decided to move. Now the bank expects me to pay the whole mortgage! They really don't get it. Their rivals are renting houses by the month! This makes Zero Business Sense."

    I award you the rare, coveted double sole face palm:

    image

    First mistake: DO, Linode, etc. are not Leaseweb's rivals. The vast majority of the hosting world charges by the month.

    Second mistake: You didn't read the contract. You seem surprised that contracts have terms that bind you.

    Third mistake: Trying to lecture the rest of the world on what makes good business sense.

    Do you think I'll recommend them to any of my clients?

    I'm sure Leaseweb's board of directors is conferring even as we speak on how to meet this crisis.

    404error said: But that doest explain what leaseweb does. It really is a weird billing procedure. Bill may to later bill April.

    But of course, that story could just be OP's bullshit.

    Here's another part of the story:

    elos42 said: But since I'd already paid for 1 month, I thought I'd let it hang around till the end of the billing period.

    Big Mistake!

    I get a new invoice a day after the one-month period was over.

    Translation: I didn't cancel and I got billed for another month and I don't want to pay. That is what happened here.

    The rest is just teenage gluteus maximus accelerated discomfort..

    Thanked by 3Falzo Clouvider MasonR
  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    If they did do a month switcheroo (ie. charge for May first and only charge for the sign-up month pro-rata after that), then it's quite possible that this sale is illegal under Dutch consumer law. Pretty much any confusing billing model for subscriptions is automatically disallowed under current legislation.

    (Assuming it was a business-to-consumer sale and not business-to-business, of course.)

    Thanked by 1kkrajk
  • FalzoFalzo Member

    @raindog308 said:

    this!

    leaseweb simply aligns billing periods.

    with your order you need to pay at least for one full month of the service upfront. if the service is not cancelled you'll get two invoices, one for a full month, and a prorata'd one for the remainder of the initial month. as they already have the money for a full month, they of course just need to charge the remainder.

    if one would simply cancel in time after buyers remorse, that confusion probably could have been avoided.

    Thanked by 2Shazan vimalware
  • pullangcubopullangcubo Member
    edited May 2018

    @Shazan said:
    I suppose they calculated the pro-rata after the first payment for the full month of May. Yes, it is unusual but I don't see much of a problem here.

    The problem is:

    1. OP signed up for a monthly contract on April and paid the bill
    2. LeaseWeb applied that bill (#1) for OP's May bill instead
    3. However, OP cancelled the VPS (for the sake of argument) by May
    4. LeaseWeb is now asking OP payment for April and insists that #1 is for May

    Now, this scenario is not quite accurate since it appears OP didn't explicitly cancel the VPS for the next billing cycle, and hence I believe he/she should just pay the second bill and then cancel the services.

    However, the question persists: if LeaseWeb goes by this billing scheme, and another user legitimately cancelled the VPS before it's next billing cycle, how would they account the fact that they are billing the user for the services rendered the month before and that the initial bill the user previously paid for is actually for the current month (which the user has already cancelled services for)?

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    pullangcubo said: However, the question persists: if LeaseWeb goes by this billing scheme, and another user legitimately cancelled the VPS before it's next billing cycle, how would they account the fact that they are billing the user for the services rendered the month before and that the initial bill the user previously paid for is actually for the current month (which the user has already cancelled services for)?

    The minimum term of 1 month + cancellation effective at the end of the term

    So if you sign a monthly contract on 5th April and the term is defined as 1st of the month to the last of the month it ends up being effective at the end of May.

    Thanked by 1pullangcubo
  • @Clouvider said:

    So if you sign a monthly contract on 5th April and the term is defined as 1st of the month to the last of the month it ends up being effective at the end of May.

    If I got it right, it means that all (monthly contract) account sign ups that wasn't done on the 1st day of the month is effectively turned into a multiple-month term for the initial (monthly) contract -- the partial initial month + the full next month?

    Which means that the user cannot cancel the account during the current (initial) month because the initial (monthly) contract shall only end the following month?

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @pullangcubo said:

    @Clouvider said:

    So if you sign a monthly contract on 5th April and the term is defined as 1st of the month to the last of the month it ends up being effective at the end of May.

    If I got it right, it means that all (monthly contract) account sign ups that wasn't done on the 1st day of the month is effectively turned into a multiple-month term for the initial (monthly) contract -- the partial initial month + the full next month?

    Which means that the user cannot cancel the account during the current (initial) month because the initial (monthly) contract shall only end the following month?

    Yep, this would be a correct interpretation in my armchair lawyer opinion :p.

    In the 1st with immediately cancellation would be 1 month exactly and any other day would be a full month + pro rated remainder of the month the service was bought in at minimum.

    I’d still classify this as a monthly contract though.

    Thanked by 2Shazan pullangcubo
  • @Clouvider said:

    Yep, this would be a correct interpretation in my armchair lawyer opinion :p.

    Hmm, that's interesting...first time I've encountered such a contract/billing term. Any other provider you're aware with such terms?

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @pullangcubo said:

    @Clouvider said:

    Yep, this would be a correct interpretation in my armchair lawyer opinion :p.

    Hmm, that's interesting...first time I've encountered such a contract/billing term. Any other provider you're aware with such terms?

    In bigger business ? Yeah. Colo providers, virtually all of them at wholesale, some connectivity providers, all IXs we’re connected to. It’s pretty common.

    Thanked by 1pullangcubo
  • ShazanShazan Member, Host Rep
    edited May 2018

    @Clouvider said:
    In the 1st with immediately cancellation would be 1 month exactly and any other day would be a full month + pro rated remainder of the month the service was bought in at minimum.

    Yes, AFAIK this is how it works for Leaseweb indeed.

    Thanked by 2Clouvider Falzo
  • @Clouvider said:

    In bigger business ? Yeah. Colo providers, virtually all of them at wholesale, some connectivity providers, all IXs we’re connected to. It’s pretty common.

    Well, yeah, you know, I'm just a low-end guy...you learn something new every day. Thanks for info! :D

  • edited May 2018

    I have also found Leaseweb kind of wierd to deal with so I am not surprised by this. I think it's a European thing. They seem to have a different way of doing things. They do have US based people but a lot of it seems to be run out of Europe.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    I don't think so. They simply don't cater to the super low-end market.

  • @Clouvider said:
    I don't think so. They simply don't cater to the super low-end market.

    Not sure what you are responding to but are you trying to say they are wierd because they are not low end? Like higher end providers are supposed to be wierd and difficult to deal with?

  • xaocxaoc Member
    edited May 2018

    This can easily be seen as false advertising. You advertise apples and sell oranges... If the sale/order pages say 1 month then it's one month(ie 28 days) and you can wipe your behind with your silly ToS. :P No comment.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @LosPollosHermanos said:

    @Clouvider said:
    I don't think so. They simply don't cater to the super low-end market.

    Not sure what you are responding to but are you trying to say they are wierd because they are not low end? Like higher end providers are supposed to be wierd and difficult to deal with?

    Nope. Simply different business models require different policies for revenue protection.

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