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Was DMCA ignore hosts allowed here? - Page 2
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Was DMCA ignore hosts allowed here?

2

Comments

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Zen said:

    randvegeta said: Yes I'm sure. Again, if you read what I said, most hosts may simply treat it as the same as the equivalent laws in their own countries. But DMCA is specific to the US. The specifics laws of each country prevails as US law is not world law.

    Being informed of copyright infringement is not the same as being informed of a crime if you don't know the alleged act is a crime. You're not responsible for the actions of others and have no obligation to act unless you know a crime is being committed. A DMCA notice does not specify which laws have been violated or what responsibilities and liabilities the host has. Of course if it's blatant copyright infringement then it's generally expected that everyone knows what that means so people treat DMCA the same in most cases. But what about for nuanced cases? It's not obvious and so we must look at local laws, not just DMCA.

    Yeah you are wrong. EU limited liability is only valid under the assumption that the host does not know about the illegal content.

    That's exactly what I said. So I'm not wrong

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    randvegeta said: You don't care about law or jurisdiction. That much is obvious.

    lol, completely opposite mate, as per my posts above. I'd suggest you seriously take a step back and think before hitting 'Post Comment'. That would go a long way.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider
    edited March 2018

    randvegeta said: That's exactly what I said. So I'm not wrong

    No, you did not say that, you said opposite and now you're backtracking perhaps you

    randvegeta said: seriously have a reading problem. Or one with English. Probably both. Very unprofessional.

    Here is what you said in response to this very point:

    Clouvider said: Are you sure ? I’d argue that the DMCA takedown request is a notification under EU copyright directives. This in turn prevents your defence as a hosting provider that you didn’t knew what the contents were as you’ve now been informed. If you don’t take action to prevent the copyright violation you can be sued along your Client as being complicit.

    Whether said notification is called ‘DMCA takedown’ or ‘To Whom It May Concern’ doesn’t really matter.

    randvegeta said
    Yes I'm sure. Again, if you read what I said, most hosts may simply treat it as the same as the equivalent laws in their own countries. But DMCA is specific to the US. The specifics laws of each country prevails as US law is not world law.

  • FlamesRunnerFlamesRunner Member
    edited March 2018

    @willie said:

    ricardo said:

    ^ Fact. I suppose only a moderator/admin can clarify the forum's position. AFAIK they aren't keen on a hosting provider using it as a selling point.

    That was basically Jarland's approach when he was adminning the site. I.e. he he didn't care what people were doing as long as they weren't blatant about it. That seemed fine to me.

    If we -really- want to cleanse the forum of eeeeevil pirates the first thing to do is ban all the storage server providers, since we all know what LET members fill those servers with. Heh.

    I only store backups on my storage VPS servers -- I have a nice storage box at home for anything else.

    Many don't host illegal content on their storage servers. Even if they do, so long as they don't expose it publicly, I don't see how it could be taken down in the first place if the evidence cannot be obtained.

  • EwokEwok Member

    Upstreams drop traffic if your servers are actually hosting copyright content. I cannot think of a single host that actually allows the hosting of actual copyright material.

    How are they going to know if DMCAs are ignored? The two hosts in question on here send DMCAs to /dev/null

    Hell one of the two even says you can host such content.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    Clouvider said: lol, completely opposite mate, as per my posts above. I'd suggest you seriously take a step back and think before hitting 'Post Comment'. That would go a long way.

    It's like speaking with a lemon. Seriously, you either have some real difficulties understanding English or you're trolling. Either way, it's not good.

    Clouvider said: No, you did not say that

    randvegeta said: Being informed of copyright infringement is not the same as being informed of a crime if you don't know the alleged act is a crime. You're not responsible for the actions of others and have no obligation to act unless you know a crime is being committed.

    It's actually exactly what I said. The host needs to know about the infringing content. DMCA's scope is ambiguous, more so than in the EU or HK. Not everything covered under DMCA is considered illegal in the EU or HK, and it is not obvious what is not always obvious what is and is not illegal.

    Of course if you are made aware of blatant copyright infringement, where it is expected and reasonable for everyone to know that the alleged act is illegal, then the host must take action or indeed lose their limited liability. I have already said as much, and never denied it.

    But even if the alleged act is blatant copyright infringement, a DMCA take down notice may, in some cases, not actually constitute as being informed. Not everyone speaks English (you apparently struggle a lot with it) and the notice may not communicate the message adequately to the host. As I said, if I send you a notice of copyright infringement in Chinese, you would probably delete the E-Mail thinking it is spam, and you may have every right to discount it.

    There are no specific EU rules for take down request / copyright infringement notifications. The mere sending of a DMCA take down request is not the same thing as reporting copyright infringement under EU law. I don't think this is that difficult a concept to understand.

    To be perfectly clear, I agree that if a host in the EU is made aware of copy right infringement (as defined under EU / International law) then of course the host has an obligation to act, or lose the their limited liability privileges.

    In some cases, a DMCA Take Down Request can serve the function of notifying the host of Copyright infringement, but in many cases that's not what happens. And there are reasonable exceptions as to why a DMCA notification may not constitute as actually notifying the host of any infringement.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    Here is an example of why a DMCA Copyright Infringement notification is not the same thing as being notified of copyright infringement. It is generally accepted that in the US, linking to copyright material is not really allowed, and the procedures to remove links from websites uses the same process. But in HK, linking is definitely not considered copyright infringement. But DMCA notice will be the same either way. So receiving a DMCA notification is not the same thing as being notified as a crime.

  • @randvegeta said:
    Here is an example of why a DMCA Copyright Infringement notification is not the same thing as being notified of copyright infringement. It is generally accepted that in the US, linking to copyright material is not really allowed, and the procedures to remove links from websites uses the same process. But in HK, linking is definitely not considered copyright infringement. But DMCA notice will be the same either way. So receiving a DMCA notification is not the same thing as being notified as a crime.

    This is pretty much the opposite of what courts have found. Linking has been found multiple times in the US to not be indirect infringement, whereas in the EU the opposite has been found.

  • MikePTMikePT Moderator, Patron Provider, Veteran
    edited March 2018

    @randvegeta said:

    Clouvider said: lol, completely opposite mate, as per my posts above. I'd suggest you seriously take a step back and think before hitting 'Post Comment'. That would go a long way.

    It's like speaking with a lemon. Seriously, you either have some real difficulties understanding English or you're trolling. Either way, it's not good.

    Clouvider said: No, you did not say that

    randvegeta said: Being informed of copyright infringement is not the same as being informed of a crime if you don't know the alleged act is a crime. You're not responsible for the actions of others and have no obligation to act unless you know a crime is being committed.

    It's actually exactly what I said. The host needs to know about the infringing content. DMCA's scope is ambiguous, more so than in the EU or HK. Not everything covered under DMCA is considered illegal in the EU or HK, and it is not obvious what is not always obvious what is and is not illegal.

    Of course if you are made aware of blatant copyright infringement, where it is expected and reasonable for everyone to know that the alleged act is illegal, then the host must take action or indeed lose their limited liability. I have already said as much, and never denied it.

    But even if the alleged act is blatant copyright infringement, a DMCA take down notice may, in some cases, not actually constitute as being informed. Not everyone speaks English (you apparently struggle a lot with it) and the notice may not communicate the message adequately to the host. As I said, if I send you a notice of copyright infringement in Chinese, you would probably delete the E-Mail thinking it is spam, and you may have every right to discount it.

    There are no specific EU rules for take down request / copyright infringement notifications. The mere sending of a DMCA take down request is not the same thing as reporting copyright infringement under EU law. I don't think this is that difficult a concept to understand.

    To be perfectly clear, I agree that if a host in the EU is made aware of copy right infringement (as defined under EU / International law) then of course the host has an obligation to act, or lose the their limited liability privileges.

    In some cases, a DMCA Take Down Request can serve the function of notifying the host of Copyright infringement, but in many cases that's not what happens. And there are reasonable exceptions as to why a DMCA notification may not constitute as actually notifying the host of any infringement.

    Wrong. EUCD does apply even if its sent as DMCA. You cannot just ignore law because the lawyer labeled it as a DMCA report. Refer to http://www.fipr.org/copyright/guide/eucd-guide.pdf
    And I must say that, while EU is generally flexible about torrents for example, the rest can be disputed and a good lawyer can cause you serious harm especially if the upstream is involved. Upstreams usually do not bother with small fishes that would end up costing them more with lawyers than the client is worth.
    Plus, do not forget their ToS where they basically forbid any illegal activity. Again, transit clients are heroes until the upstream disconnects them.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • SetsuraSetsura Member
    edited March 2018

    @Clouvider said:
    Are you sure ? I’d argue that the DMCA takedown request is a notification under EU copyright directives. This in turn prevents your defence as a hosting provider that you didn’t knew what the contents were as you’ve now been informed. If you don’t take action to prevent the copyright violation you can be sued along your Client as being complicit.

    @Zen said:
    Yeah you are wrong. EU limited liability is only valid under the assumption that the host does not know about the illegal content.

    Disclaimer: Not here to argue for copyright infringement

    I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say, I don't think anyone in this thread(myself included) is a legal professional. That said, is it unreasonable that a host not take any action if they aren't a trained legal professional or employ one? If they don't actually know whether a complain is valid, or if some content is really infringing, is it actually reasonable for them to just comply blindly? Could you not put yourself in a bad position for wrongly taking down something that was in fact not violating? @randvegeta above said Of course if it's blatant copyright infringement then it's generally expected that everyone knows what that means but is it really so obvious?

    I'd like to present my situation many years ago where I was assisting in running a video game review blog which received many a takedown notice over what was pretty clearly fair use screenshots for reviewing purposes, something which was fairly well established to fall into fair use. I can count about 6 hosts who bent over on the very first notice seemingly without any understanding what-so-ever of whether or not the content really was infringing, and decided to kick first ask never. I eventually ended up having to help move that site over to some "bullet proof" type host just to get away from the ever trolling DMCA bots that patrol google for keywords not even bothering to involve a human to verify if something was infringing, and even if they did involve a human said person was likely not a trained legal professional who could actually say for certain something was infringing. DMCA(EUCD/etc) are "notices of infringement", but they certainly aren't sent by attorneys or anyone who can well and truly make an informed legal decision, I'd like to think it isn't too unreasonable to wait for a real court notice to take any potentially harmful actions. If this puts your position as a host in jeopardy, I can understand why you'd rather just flip than try to stick up for a client, it is a fairly unfortunate position to be put in that you could be held liable over something you may not be in a position to understand legally, especially if you have no on-staff legal professional.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider
    edited March 2018

    So @randvegeta when has no more arguments goes in a loop and then personal. Disgusting and unprofessional. I’m out, discussing with you is like talking to a an early days eassistant capable only
    Of repeating itself with an added mix of insults. No point to waste my precious time on you.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Clouvider said:
    So @randvegeta when has no more arguments goes in a loop and then personal. Disgusting and unprofessional. I’m out, discussing with you is like talking to a an early days eassistant capable only
    Of repeating itself with an added mix of insults. No point to waste my precious time on you.

    You're literally not reading anything being said. You form your own opinions and ignore anything said that doesn't fit your own narrative.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    randvegeta said: You're literally not reading anything being said

    Well, I think, and I believe quite a few people that explicitly told you that what you say is wrong would agree with me, that it's actually you who is not reading anything being written here, not me.

    Anyway, good luck ;-). I'm out.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Clouvider said:

    randvegeta said: You're literally not reading anything being said

    Well, I think, and I believe quite a few people that explicitly told you that what you say is wrong would agree with me, that it's actually you who is not reading anything being written here, not me.

    Anyway, good luck ;-). I'm out.

    Actually you will find no one agreed with you at all. You just kept repeating yourself that EU law is absolute and HK laws (or any other laws) are irrelevant. Bloody disgusting and fascist attitude if you ask me.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    Just stop tagging me already.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Clouvider said:
    Just stop tagging me already.

    Stop trolling me. And have some respect for the laws and languages of other countries an cultures.

    You may think that DMCA is world law, and English must be spoken by all, but advocating oppression is just wrong. Violence is never the answer.

  • @randvegeta said:

    @Clouvider said:
    Just stop tagging me already.

    Stop trolling me. And have some respect for the laws and languages of other countries an cultures.

    You may think that DMCA is world law, and English must be spoken by all, but advocating oppression is just wrong. Violence is never the answer.

    Where the fuck did violence get threatened? Regardless of what two hosts do here it's better to verify the legitimacy of such complaints and forward them to clients even if not a legal requirement in your specific jurisdiction. You'll just attract the wrong crowd otherwise...

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider
    edited March 2018

    Sorry for the words, but what what the fuck are you talking about ?

    Violence ?

    Are you all right ?

    Grow up.

    Again think before posting comments, you’re making a clown out of yourself now mate.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider
    edited March 2018

    @randvegeta said:
    You may think that DMCA is world law, and English must be spoken by all, but advocating oppression is just wrong. Violence is never the answer.

    I think you’re again heaving issues understanding English.

    @randvegeta said:
    Stop trolling me. And have some respect for the laws and languages of other countries an cultures.

    If anything that’s you who has no respect for the laws of the country you do business / have Datacentre in (Lithuania IIRC, that’s in the EU).

    Just Stop tagging me already. I don’t want to waste any more time on heaving to respond to you; it’s poontless.

    Over and out unless you try to accuse me of something ridiculous as violence again.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @IThinkUFailed said:

    @randvegeta said:

    @Clouvider said:
    Just stop tagging me already.

    Stop trolling me. And have some respect for the laws and languages of other countries an cultures.

    You may think that DMCA is world law, and English must be spoken by all, but advocating oppression is just wrong. Violence is never the answer.

    Where the fuck did violence get threatened? Regardless of what two hosts do here it's better to verify the legitimacy of such complaints and forward them to clients even if not a legal requirement in your specific jurisdiction. You'll just attract the wrong crowd otherwise...

    I never said he mentioned violence. I'm just spewing random shit in true clouvider style.

    @Clouvider said:
    Sorry for the words, but what what the fuck are you talking about ?

    Violence ?

    Are you all right ?

    Grow up.

    Again think before posting comments, you’re making a clown out of yourself now mate.

    I'm all good. Just taking a page from your playbook mate. You like to speed random and unrelated info I to the mix.

    I'm sure you agree violence is never the answer.

    But your fascist attitude really is disgusting and abhorrent.

  • Now, now children, it's OK to disagree without being rude.

    There's 100 ways a DMCA process could go down, from a provider simply suspending your account on receiving a manual/automated notice, to every permutation afterwards.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    ricardo said: Now, now children, it's OK to disagree without being rude.

    Actually its probably more like being rude for the sake of being rude. The 'disagreement' is more of a pretence to be rude.

    After all, in my very first response on this thread, I stated that there is basically no such thing as a safe haven for copyright infringement and that every host would be liable to comply with their own local copyright laws, which is largely similar between countries (at least ones that I am aware of).

    DMCA is an AMERICAN law, and so does not apply to any other country. Other countries have similar laws, but a DMCA take down request does not automatically translate or qualify as a legitimate take down request or notification of infringement in the host's jurisdiction. Note the 'AUTOMATICALLY' part of the statement (I'm looking at you @Clouvider!). There are a number of reasons why this would be the case. The specific laws between countries differ, and the language of the law also matters.

    Simple example is that plenty of hosts do not actually speak English, and receiving a communicae that you cannot understand is plenty reason enough to not constitute that as a valid notification.

    But according to some people, DMCA = World Law. EU Law = World Law. English = Word of Law, and that sort of thinking is not only arrogant, but ignorant.

    Thanked by 1DarioX
  • Your point is valid, I think it's just a slight difference of interpretation between you on the validity of using the word DMCA and what it should mean outside the USA.

    I think it's safe to agree that anyone who's serious about rectifying any copyright infringement would follow up until the problem is addressed.

    There are lots of small-time website owners who'll notice their site has been scraped and will Google on steps to remove infringing content and will likely end up on a page describing the DMCA process and maybe even a template letter to send.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    ricardo said: Your point is valid, I think it's just a slight difference of interpretation between you on the validity of using the word DMCA and what it should mean outside the USA.

    In my third reply in this thread, I state that most host will treat a DMCA as equivalent to their own local version. Any serious host will take THEIR OWN laws seriously, and since DMCA is about copyright, and every host jurisdiction has copyright laws of their own, it only makes sense to follow up.

    But there is no obligation to treat a DMCA with the same weight as an official notification as defined by your local laws. As such, it can be ignored. And threats made under DMCA can definitely be ignored. The threats made should be relevant to whatever jurisdiction is actually applicable. Again, to assume otherwise is both arrogant and ignorant.

  • delivereathdelivereath Member
    edited March 2018

    One thing that randvegeta has right is that many countries require these notifications to be sent in an official country language. As english is not an official language in the wide majority of EU and even worldwide countries, a provider can easily ignore a DCMA request based on this.

    Thanked by 1randvegeta
  • Provider can ignore DCMA if it's not in US, but might not be able to ignore copyright notice (especially from trusted flagger)

    Thanked by 1randvegeta
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep
    edited March 2018

    Clouvider said: I think you’re again heaving issues understanding English.

    Heaving? I think you have issues writing in English.

    Clouvider said: If anything that’s you who has no respect for the laws of the country you do business / have Datacentre in (Lithuania IIRC, that’s in the EU).

    For our company in LT / EU we observe LT / EU law. For HK we observe HK law. Just because we have operations in EU doesn't mean our HK biz is subject to EU law too.

    And I never said anything about or against EU law. You keep bringing it up as if it's somehow relevant. It's not.

    Clouvider said: Just Stop tagging me already. I don’t want to waste any more time on heaving to respond to you; it’s poontless.

    Then don't reply? Who's forcing you read this? If you can't take it, don't dish it out. You're just wrong here mate. DMCA Report != Notification of crime, no matter how much you whinge and whine about it. Grow up and start acting like a professional. You can poke at my professionalism all you like here. But I should probably remind you that every post you make has your company name and signature in it, meaning you're here clearly as a representative of your company. I'm here as myself, on LET, where we fucking damn well speak as we please. I don't give a shit if you act professional or not TBH, but I find it ironic how you how low you stoop considering the official capacity in which you participate here.

    Clouvider said: Over and out unless you try to accuse me of something ridiculous as violence again.

    I never accused you of violence, or advocating it. Again, you need to read what is said. I simply stated that it was never a solution. If people make that connection by inference, simply because you were mentioned earlier in the post, that's neither my fault nor my problem. But I would be surprised if you genuinely have qualms about that sort of thing, since you routinely do it yourself.

    Racism and discrimination has no place on LET!

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep
    edited March 2018

    Edit: Never mind. Was a troll post.

  • omelasomelas Member
    edited March 2018

    and poor me spamed with notifications

    Thanked by 1randvegeta
  • Didn't OVH create new biz for their US dc because otherwise they should comply with DMCA with their main company

This discussion has been closed.