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Generator or Giant Battery Bank? - Page 2
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Generator or Giant Battery Bank?

2

Comments

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    To mimic your response style: “LOL!” Certainly, because pouring gas into the tank is significantly simpler process than commissioning a large generator.

    What are you even talking about here.

    Thanked by 1J1021
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    Clouvider said: To mimic your response style: “LOL!” Certainly, because pouring gas into the tank is significantly simpler process than commissioning a large generator.

    What are you even talking about here.

    I don't know about that. It seems fairly simple to rent a generator. I've never had to rent a generator in HK but in Lithuania we rented a very large generator for a few days. Was very cost effective, and very easy. Running power cables was really not an issue.

    Are you seriously saying that it's difficult to run a few cables and plug them in?

  • AidanAidan Member

    randvegeta said: 100KW generator, which is more than ample for most small DCs, which is what I'm talking about here, can quite easily fit in a trailer

    If you can find a local company that's got a good reputation, I guess you can do that. An empty 100kW diesel generator shouldn't weigh more than ~1.7tons so it's possible, I've rented a couple of 200kW towables for construction projects - but standby fees will most likely be rather high.

    randvegeta said: If the SLA for fuel delivery is say... 4 hours

    That's a bit optimistic, on this small scale you'll most likely arrange it through the people who'll bring you a generator.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep
    edited March 2018

    Aidan said: That's a bit optimistic, on this small scale you'll most likely arrange it through the people who'll bring you a generator.

    In Lithuania, where our DC is, there is a place just a couple hundred meters away where we can rent industrial equipment, including large power generators. It was very inexpensive and fast to arrive, but mainly because it was basically next door. You can even rent cranes from those guys.

    I'm not sure what the situation would be in HK though.

    Thanked by 1Aidan
  • lazytlazyt Member

    Just remember there are events where fuel can not be delivered. Or where the tanks end up under water thus unusable. Just look at when Sandy hit the US coast.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @lazyt said:
    Just remember there are events where fuel can not be delivered. Or where the tanks end up under water thus unusable. Just look at when Sandy hit the US coast.

    Aye, no one is saying that using additional backup methods is bad. We're merely pointing out that replacing generators with batteries is not delivering minimum resiliency standards expected in today's datacentres.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Clouvider said:

    @lazyt said:
    Just remember there are events where fuel can not be delivered. Or where the tanks end up under water thus unusable. Just look at when Sandy hit the US coast.

    Aye, no one is saying that using additional backup methods is bad. We're merely pointing out that replacing generators with batteries is not delivering minimum resiliency standards expected in today's datacentres.

    What happens when your generator runs out of the 4 hours of fuel you keep on site and the contractor charged with supplying you more fuel can't get to you for whatever reason?

    Or what happens if you have your fuel and your datacentre has plenty of power but your upstreams don't have the appropriate power resiliency because the whole city is out of power and they can't get to their pops to hook up a generator.

    This is where sattellite connectivity comes in handy. Not that any of this matters, since a city wise outage probably falls under force majeure.

    There's been times entire countries have been knocked offline because of a single undersea cable being cut or damaged.

    There's always something. Always a possibility that something may happen that knocks you offline. It's happened in both HK and LT that our upstreams went down when the power in our building was down for maintenance because their UPS were insufficient for the duration of downtime. To hell with the SLAs! That didn't mean didly squat.

    Now we maintain a couple of wireless links in both locations for emergencies. Latency would go through the roof and performance would crawl, but at least things would remain online.

    But seriously, if there was an excessivly long downtime of power in HK, that would be pretty serious. Genuinely I think that would fall under force majeure.

  • AidanAidan Member

    randvegeta said: What happens when your generator runs out of the 4 hours of fuel you keep on site and the contractor charged with supplying you more fuel can't get to you for whatever reason?

    You get a jerry can & go buy some more? ;-;

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Aidan said:

    randvegeta said: What happens when your generator runs out of the 4 hours of fuel you keep on site and the contractor charged with supplying you more fuel can't get to you for whatever reason?

    You get a jerry can & go buy some more? ;-;

    Do pumps still work during power outages?

    That's actually an option. There's a petrol station a few hundred meters away and another less than a KM away.

    The only problem is you're not supposed to use Gerry Cans in HK, and only commercial vehicles are supposed to be able to use diesel.

  • AidanAidan Member
    edited March 2018

    randvegeta said: Do pumps still work during power outages?

    Would be best to ask the individual petrol station, most modern pumps require power, though most decent sized stations will include a small generator to run the pumps.

    The only problem is you're not supposed to use Gerry Cans in HK, and only commercial vehicles are supposed to be able to use diesel.

    I'm sure that a blackout would count as extraordinary circumstances.

    edit: Whilst you're there, also inquire what's the largest size container that they'll fill & if plastic/metal is okay - some places can be rather picky.

  • erwinerwin Member

    @Clouvider said:
    Who would deliver generators up to specs and guarantee it, and install it in time when half of the town has no power ?

    Where would you put it and the tanks if you have no space ?

    This is fantasy world.

    You don't need a fantasy world to get this done.... for sure its depending on a lot of things, but a proper energy supplier should be able to do it in a short time. they know the exact reason for the outage and average repair time... the generators should be up and running at your site in 2-4 hours in my experience.

    Thanked by 1randvegeta
  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @erwin said:

    @Clouvider said:
    Who would deliver generators up to specs and guarantee it, and install it in time when half of the town has no power ?

    Where would you put it and the tanks if you have no space ?

    This is fantasy world.

    You don't need a fantasy world to get this done.... for sure its depending on a lot of things, but a proper energy supplier should be able to do it in a short time. they know the exact reason for the outage and average repair time... the generators should be up and running at your site in 2-4 hours in my experience.

    Well, not without expecting the silence of the lost load you can’t be sure of it when half of town has no power on Sunday night.

    2-4h is tight SLA for the petrol to reach your site, yet alone generator being guaranteed to be comissioned and ready for you.

    Shorter SLA is potentially possible in certain cases but would involve very steep costs making the whole venture of replacing it with the batteries non-economical even if no outage actually happens.

  • randvegeta said: As for an outage lasting 3 days, that's unheard of in HK.

    I thought it was the same in New York. Until hurricane Sandy when everybody was out for at least 2 days and many admins couldn't even get to work and had to do what they could remotely - which only goes so far when it's a server power issue.

    The weather isn't as predictable as one might like. Here's a list of major outages. HK, just might be next.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • Wouldn't upstream ISP go offline at that long power outage?

  • omelas said: Wouldn't upstream ISP go offline at that long power outage?

    Major exchanges usually aren't using old car batteries.

    Thanked by 2Clouvider MCHPhil
  • @Ole_Juul said:

    omelas said: Wouldn't upstream ISP go offline at that long power outage?

    Major exchanges usually aren't using old car batteries.

    well, you mentioned hurricane Sandy but I dount prepering your datacenter for it would be helpful because nobody else expect it so your datacenter will be offline anyway...

  • Ole_JuulOle_Juul Member
    edited March 2018

    omelas said: well, you mentioned hurricane Sandy but I dount prepering your datacenter for it would be helpful because nobody else expect it so your datacenter will be offline anyway...

    I believe some places remained open. And the ones that didn't have since taken appropriate measures. Telengy, a NY CLEC, was one such place.

    Edit to add. I just did a bit of a search, and during Hurricane Sandy when the power grid was down, I found this quote about Telehouse (where NYIIX is hosted)

    Carrier-neutral colo provider Telehouse America said Tuesday that its New York City facilities engaged backup diesel power ahead of the grid shutdown and that its Manhattan sites, 25 Broadway and Chelsea Center, were not operationally affected by the flooding.

    Thanked by 2omelas Clouvider
  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    Exactly. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

    Thanked by 2Aidan MCHPhil
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Ole_Juul said:

    omelas said: Wouldn't upstream ISP go offline at that long power outage?

    Major exchanges usually aren't using old car batteries.

    That implies lead acid starter batteries. Li-ion is quite a bit different. Even if second hand, they are far superior to brand new lead acid ones.

    @Ole_Juul said:

    randvegeta said: As for an outage lasting 3 days, that's unheard of in HK.

    I thought it was the same in New York. Until hurricane Sandy when everybody was out for at least 2 days and many admins couldn't even get to work and had to do what they could remotely - which only goes so far when it's a server power issue.

    The weather isn't as predictable as one might like. Here's a list of major outages. HK, just might be next.

    New York has had many many many outages. Just look at that list and see how often things go down.

    And other than multi-million dollar DCs, if I'm not mistaken, just about everyone was affected in some form or another.

    Thanked by 1Ole_Juul
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    raindog308 said: Yes: tier, class - different terms for same thing.

    I was under the impression that the different levels mandated specifics in terms of power (i.e., generator/battery mix), but perhaps they only mandate experience. I'm not a DC guy, but I interact with them and all the pros I've dealt can rattle off their datacenter certifications and ratings. If you're working on a serious DC, I'd try to align with industry standards.

    There is no specific requirement to be able to generate power on-site for even tier 4 classification.

    I believe there is a certain amount of time the DC must be able to support for total power outage, which is normally through a Diesel generator. Most DC's fulfill redundancy requirements by having multiple power feeds from multiple providers from different substations. We have this in Lithuania, so the chances of both our power feeds going down is very small. The whole power grid would likely have to go down for both our sources to go down. I mean, of course fluke accidents happen, but generally speaking, the dual feed is the primary requirement.

    Onsite, you can fulfill the minimum time frame of onsite power via whatever means you have available. Traditionally this has been some sort of generator as it has been the most cost effective solution. This is still generally the case, but you could feasibly use batteries to also fulfill this requirement.

    You can get a 100KW generator for probably 10-20K (used) and the fuel can be seen as almost free. A 100KWH batter pack would also cost about 10-20K, but of course that only supplies 100KW for 1 hour, so if you want 24 hours on site power, the battery would optimistically cost 24x more than the generator. But being able to build out the battery bank in stages means the upfront cost may not be so large. As mentioned above, it could be as little $2,400 per rack for 12 hours capacity. It's still expensive but it's not unreasonably so. If you fit 16 servers in a 42U rack (as we do), that's only an extra $150 per server. Or $300 for 24 hours. So on a per server basis, it's really not all that expensive.

    Not every DC is built on a $100M budget, and getting all the perks of a tier 4 DC adds some serious cost. I don't think any provider here can claim they comply with tier 4 requirements. I would imagine the majority barely meet tier 2 requirements to be honest (but that's just a guess). That's not a criticism mind you. At LET level pricing, honestly any redundancy seems like it should be a bonus. No one would invest in all that redundancy for LET level services. To expect otherwise really would be living in a fantasy world.

    Thanked by 1Ole_Juul
  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    Why not both?

    Thanked by 1flatland_spider
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Neoon said:
    Why not both?

    Well why would you spend money on having both? If you have a generator, you only need a few minutes of UPS time, just so you can get the generator back up.

    If you have crazy long UPS time, why do you need a generator?

    Doesn't make sense.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider
    edited March 2018

    Majority meets tier 2, wow, how did you made this assumption ? Based on what data ? It’s not everyone aspiration to run a basement style shed Datacentre with no generator on site, built in hopes that outage won’t happen.

    For example, we don’t use any tier 2 facility, not even for a network PoP.

    Each of them either meets or exceeds tier 3 specification with tier 4 not being possible as U.K. has only one national power grid that’s common for all suppliers.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Clouvider said:
    Majority meets tier 2, wow, how did you made this assumption ? Based on what data ? It’s not everyone aspiration to run a basement style shed Datacentre with no generator on site, built in hopes that outage won’t happen.

    For example, we don’t use any tier 2 facility, not even for a network PoP.

    Each of them either meets or exceeds tier 3 specification with tier 4 not being possible as U.K. has only one national power grid that’s common for all suppliers.

    Do you know how to read English or do you just read what you want to read?

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    ???

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @randvegeta said:

    @Neoon said:
    Why not both?

    Well why would you spend money on having both? If you have a generator, you only need a few minutes of UPS time, just so you can get the generator back up.

    If you have crazy long UPS time, why do you need a generator?

    Doesn't make sense.

    It very much makes sense. The more resiliency the better.

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    @randvegeta said:

    @Neoon said:
    Why not both?

    Well why would you spend money on having both? If you have a generator, you only need a few minutes of UPS time, just so you can get the generator back up.

    If you have crazy long UPS time, why do you need a generator?

    Doesn't make sense.

    It does make sense, depending on your budget, you wanna rely on a single generator?

    If that thing does not power up when needed, or you have a longer outage and run out of fuel, you may attach some solar to your bank.

    There are endless possibilities, but rely on a single generator with fuel is a bad idea in my opinion.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Neoon said:

    @randvegeta said:

    @Neoon said:
    Why not both?

    Well why would you spend money on having both? If you have a generator, you only need a few minutes of UPS time, just so you can get the generator back up.

    If you have crazy long UPS time, why do you need a generator?

    Doesn't make sense.

    It does make sense, depending on your budget, you wanna rely on a single generator?

    If that thing does not power up when needed, or you have a longer outage and run out of fuel, you may attach some solar to your bank.

    There are endless possibilities, but rely on a single generator with fuel is a bad idea in my opinion.

    As mentioned above, the cost of a generator is much less than batteries for a given capacity. If you have one gen and you're looking to increase resiliency, then a 2nd generator would make more sense than an expensive battery pack. Why would you need more batteries when you already have a generator? I'm thinking it's an either or proposition. Not both.

    @Clouvider said:
    ???

    Exactly

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    Though the battery bank may be cost effective if used not specifically as a UPS but as a way to obtain cheaper power. Charge up when power is plentiful and cheap and discharge during peak hours, which actually saves on cost. That could potentially be very cost effective, but it serves a different function than backup power.

  • @randvegeta Watch out—depending on where you store the diesel, it can go stale. I’ve seen my dad’s old car not start because the gas had been exposed to air for around a year.

    Thanked by 1randvegeta
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