Spectre and Meltdown - The what is my provider going to do about it? thread!

JoeMerit · January 6

So, I'm really curious, what are providers going to be doing regarding patching their host nodes?

Mass reboots? can any of these patches be done without rebooting? (Kernelcare, KSplice etc...)

mikewazar · January 6

update

reboot

what exactly are you curious about?

TheRedFox · January 6

live migrate stuff to backup nodes while you upgrade the main nodes?

Only summerhosts cannot afford this...

A bit of reduced performance isn't an issue anyways with almost everyone idling

ramnet · January 6

We patched our KVM service yesterday and are patching legacy OpenVZ today.

Did the update live in place with a reboot after. As our nodes aren't overloaded to begin with, not seeing any performance problems at all.

Backups nodes is overkill when it takes literally 10 minutes to apply the patch and reboot.

Sad to see my 2 years of uptime wiped away, but oh well.

JoeMerit · January 6

I would hope that providers will stagger reboots so that I do not have everything die at once

ramnet · January 6

@JoeMerit said:
I would hope that providers will stagger reboots so that I do not have everything die at once

Yes, that would be logical.

Did mine 1 machine at a time for that reason.

deank · January 6

In before "I am a host and my server is not rebooting back up after some update!" threads.

ramnet · January 6

@deank said:
In before "I am a host and my server is not rebooting back up after some update!" threads.

Haha, you're 100% right. This will show everyone who the morons are claiming to be decent hosts.

Should be fun to watch.

adly · January 6

@ramnet glad to hear you’ve patched. Still waiting to see the response from other providers.

IonSwitch_Stan · January 6

As I understand it, there are three issues at play here..

CVE-2017-5753: Known as Variant 1, a bounds check bypass [Spectre] CVE-2017-5715: Known as Variant 2, branch target injection [Spectre] CVE-2017-5754: Known as Variant 3, rogue data cache load [Meltdown]

Variant 3 effects Linux hosts, but as KVM is fully virtualizing the processor, it does not allow the variant to be exploited between guests. Variant 3 is a concern for LXC/Docker/OpenVZ hosts because it does allow side-channel attacks between instances. There is a patch available for this that hosts are applying. It is possible for processes on the hypervisor itself (ie, dom0 space in Xen parlance) to exploit this vulnerability. This is patched via KPTI/KAISER.

Variant 1 and 2 are currently not mitigated for KVM hosts as I understand, and requires a hardware/microcode update and support for these new IBRT op-codes in KVM to protect the guests.

Am I incorrect?

ramnet · January 6

@IonSwitch_Stan said:
Am I incorrect?

Red Hat is claiming that the kernel patches they published already have mitigations for Variant 1 and Variant 3.

Furthermore, Red Hat is claiming that the qemu-kvm patches they published already have mitigations for Variant 2.

So, it is my understanding that for KVM, you are 100% patched now, unless Red Hat is lying.

adly · January 6

@IonSwitch_Stan Variant 3 (CVE-2017-5754) is Meltdown, not variant 1. This is patched by KPTI provided updates are installed. KVM is unaffected at this time.

IonSwitch_Stan · January 6

I had the variants out of order and fixed them according to (https://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/584653).

kassle · January 6

are the guest kvm also need to be patched ? or the host is enough ?

SpartanHost · January 6

@kassle said:
are the guest kvm also need to be patched ? or the host is enough ?

Guest VMs need patched too.

WSS · January 6

Well, @davidgestiondbi is already on it..

mksh · January 6

@kassle said:
are the guest kvm also need to be patched ? or the host is enough ?

Yes you probably should patch your KVM too. I say probably since as long as you are the only user and don't care about privilegue escalation you could take the risk of leaving it unpatched. As soon as any untrusted code/users enter the picture you don't have much choice though imo.

mfs · January 6

uptimecalypse

So far, among my providers, only Hetzner, Netcup and Prometeus have issued alerts and/or reboots (Prometeus announced ~~they'll~~ they may retire the XenPower product completely)

Three other providers I've VPS with (one of these is a OVZ and is vulnerable to a PoC it seems) are probably still waiting a little bit for the dust to settle

WSS · January 6

@mfs said:
uptimecalypse

Nggg. Yeah.

[email protected]:~% uptime
 11:49:32 up 374 days, 21:34,  1 user,  load average: 0.65, 0.64, 0.63

perennate · January 6

IonSwitch_Stan said: Variant 1 and 2 are currently not mitigated for KVM hosts as I understand, and requires a hardware/microcode update and support for these new IBRT op-codes in KVM to protect the guests.

If you are referencing https://www.qemu.org/2018/01/04/spectre/, I think what they are saying is that although kernel/microcode updates that are already available are sufficient to prevent guests from reading hypervisor memory, qemu/kvm updates are needed to prevent applications in the guest from being able to read the guest kernel memory, because qemu needs to expose some CPU functionality ("the new CPUID bits and MSRs") to the guest kernel for the guest kernel to protect itself.

I'm not sure if the qemu/kvm updates are available now, but when they do become available, the post says that although a reboot of the host will not be required, the guest does need to be rebooted even if the guest kernel is already updated (live migration is insufficient), because it needs to get the exposed CPU functionality on boot.

Edit: actually it sounds like an unofficial patch for kvm developed by Intel was already available before the qemu blog post (https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2018-01/txtfadLGhMEF6.txt); so distributions probably already have it although the blog post indicates that it is not merged in upstream; also the author of the blog post seems to suggest there are some problems with this unofficial patch? (https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2018-01/msg00867.html)

IonSwitch_Stan · January 6

@perennate

What I read from that QEMU document is:

Without patches, Guests cannot read from the Host memory.

Without patches, Guests cannot read from other Guests memory.

WIthout patches, Guests can make sidechannel reads from their own memory

Without patches, Hosts can make sidechannel reads from their own memory

The Kernel updates fix the last two items. My understanding currently is that Specrte requires microcode updates/new opcodes to be developed, and that those do not currently exist, and there is no a Linux patch to protect against Specrte.

Again -- lots of information out there -- please correct/challange me if my summary is wrong.

Neoon · January 6

XVMLabs did reboots a few minutes back.

joepie91 · January 6

IonSwitch_Stan said: I had the variants out of order

Heh. Hehehe.

perennate · January 6

IonSwitch_Stan said: The Kernel updates fix the last two items. My understanding currently is that Specrte requires microcode updates/new opcodes to be developed, and that those do not currently exist, and there is no a Linux patch to protect against Specrte.

Again -- lots of information out there -- please correct/challange me if my summary is wrong.

I think both Spectre and Meltdown are side-channel reads.

According to the qemu blog post, guests cannot exploit Meltdown to read hypervisor memory, but CAN use Spectre to read hypervisor memory ("CVE-2017-5715 is notable because it allows guests to read potentially sensitive data from hypervisor memory"). But AFAIK there is a Linux kernel update combined with microcode updates that prevents guests from reading hypervisor memory. The blog post indicates both kernel update and microcode update are necessary even for bare-metal: "Just like on bare-metal, the guest kernel will use the new functionality provided by the microcode or millicode updates".

However there is no official qemu or kvm patch that prevents guest applications from reading guest kernel memory; but it sounds like distributions are already releasing the unofficial patch which the Paolo person (who wrote the blog post) said was written by Intel. So e.g. in Red Hat's updates everything is probably already resolved, as ramnet said.

Edit: ok I think you're right about the microcode, but then I'm confused by the blog post wording o.o

Edit2: so http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/non-free/i/intel-microcode/intel-microcode_3.20171215.1_changelog indicates Debian has microcode updates that resolve CVE-2017-5715, RHEL/others seem to have the same update

kassle · January 6

@SpartanHost said:

>

Guest VMs need patched too.

@mksh said:

Yes you probably should patch your KVM too. I say probably since as long as you are the only user and don't care about privilegue escalation you could take the risk of leaving it unpatched. As soon as any untrusted code/users enter the picture you don't have much choice though imo.

hope the performance penalty effect not doubled then

Zerpy · January 6

@ramnet said:

@IonSwitch_Stan said:
Am I incorrect?

Red Hat is claiming that the kernel patches they published already have mitigations for Variant 1 and Variant 3.

Furthermore, Red Hat is claiming that the qemu-kvm patches they published already have mitigations for Variant 2.

So, it is my understanding that for KVM, you are 100% patched now, unless Red Hat is lying.

The kernels might contain the patches, however - the microcode has to be there, and it's currently not.

In another thread, one linked to a debian package which might contain the microcodes for both spectre variants, however these microcodes are yet to be seen on other operating systems and on intels own website.

So no. People are not patched fully until they've updated the microcode for the CPUs.

perennate · January 6

Zerpy said: In another thread, one linked to a debian package which might contain the microcodes for both spectre variants, however these microcodes are yet to be seen on other operating systems and on intels own website.

Someone said the Debian ones are the same already released by RHEL.

Edit: can't find the link now, but https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=886367#21 implies that the microcode updates were published by Intel yesterday (first message says expecting an update, next one saying the updates are pushed to Debian)

Edit2: I found the link, it also has more info in general -- https://github.com/hannob/meltdownspectre-patches#cpu-microcode

Zerpy · January 6

@perennate said:

Zerpy said: In another thread, one linked to a debian package which might contain the microcodes for both spectre variants, however these microcodes are yet to be seen on other operating systems and on intels own website.

Someone said the Debian ones are the same already released by RHEL.

In that case, they'll not fix spectre for a bunch of CPUs such as:
i7-6700k
E3-1230
E3-1230v6
E5-1630v2
E5-1630v3
E5-1630v4
E5-1650v3
E5-1650v4
E5-2620v3
D-1540

Because none of those CPUs even after updated microcodes and kernels has ibpb and ibrs enabled:

$ cat /sys/kernel/debug/x86/{ibrs_enabled,ibpb_enabled}
0
0

perennate · January 6

Zerpy said: In that case, they'll not fix spectre for a bunch of CPUs such as: i7-6700k E3-1230 E3-1230v6 E5-1630v2 E5-1630v3 E5-1630v4 E5-1650v3 E5-1650v4 E5-2620v3 D-1540

Because none of those CPUs even after updated microcodes and kernels has ibpb and ibrs enabled:

Ah, this is with RHEL? The RHEL patch seemed more comprehensive than the Debian one actually since Debian hasn't updated kernel package yet AFAIK. So that is strange... hopefully get more information from Intel/others soon.

ramnet · January 6

@Zerpy said:
The kernels might contain the patches, however - the microcode has to be there, and it's currently not.

In another thread, one linked to a debian package which might contain the microcodes for both spectre variants, however these microcodes are yet to be seen on other operating systems and on intels own website.

So no. People are not patched fully until they've updated the microcode for the CPUs.

Red Hat released microcode updates also.

Linux has long had the ability to patch the microcode during OS bootup, unlike certain other OSes which require BIOS updates to do that.

perennate · January 6

ramnet said: Red Hat released microcode updates also.

Just curious, if you run the command that Zerpy wrote, do you see that these are enabled?

cat /sys/kernel/debug/x86/{ibrs_enabled,ibpb_enabled}

Edit: (on RHEL 6 need to do this first: mount -t debugfs nodev /sys/kernel/debug)

Edit2: and more information here https://access.redhat.com/articles/3311301

As noted, installing the microcode update for your hardware, if provided by the hardware vendor, is necessary to protect against variant 2. Please contact your hardware vendor for microcode updates.

Edit3: more commentary here too https://serverfault.com/questions/890904/i-updated-my-centos-7-system-why-is-meltdown-spectre-only-partially-mitigated; at least one person said they are seeing IBRS/IBPB enabled, so I guess the microcode does implement it but only for a very restricted set of CPU models?

Zerpy · January 6

@perennate said:
Ah, this is with RHEL? The RHEL patch seemed more comprehensive than the Debian one actually since Debian hasn't updated kernel package yet AFAIK. So that is strange...

Yeah the example above is from the RHEL (tested on actual Red Hat, CentOS and CloudLinux).

I've asked a bunch of other sysadms working with RHEL based systems, which see same behaviour - so.. either we're all updating things incorrectly - or there's yet to be a new microcode release.

Online.net which keeps the list up to date also have most of them in "Pending" because they're waiting.

@ramnet said:
Red Hat released microcode updates also.

Sure - but those microcodes ain't really fixing spectre, they're not enabling ibpb and ibrs which is required.

@ramnet said:
Linux has long had the ability to patch the microcode during OS bootup, unlike certain other OSes which require BIOS updates to do that.

Correct - but if the microcode is not there, you'll still have to reboot to get it applied when it's available

Neoon · January 6

Even when they reboot, it takes from 5 min to 1h+, for what the fuck do they need so long?
GestionDBI,Virtmach & BandwagnHost needed a long period of time to boot up the servers back.

I just stay with dedis, to much hassle.

eva2000 · January 6

Zerpy said: I've asked a bunch of other sysadms working with RHEL based systems, which see same behaviour - so.. either we're all updating things incorrectly - or there's yet to be a new microcode release.

Intel's press release says most of microcode updates coming next week AFAIK

Zerpy · January 6

@Neoon said:
Even when they reboot, it takes from 5 min to 1h+, for what the fuck do they need so long?
GestionDBI is down since 80 minutes and counting.

I just stay with dedis, to much hassle.

Maybe people run fsck as well :-D

@eva2000 said:

Zerpy said: I've asked a bunch of other sysadms working with RHEL based systems, which see same behaviour - so.. either we're all updating things incorrectly - or there's yet to be a new microcode release.

Intel's press release says most of microcode updates coming next week AFAIK

Yeap, that's what I'm counting on as well - so we all just have to sit tight :-D

But the fact that people believe they're all 100% safe now is fake news

gestiondbi · January 6

@Neoon said:
Even when they reboot, it takes from 5 min to 1h+, for what the fuck do they need so long?
GestionDBI is down since 80 minutes and counting.

I just stay with dedis, to much hassle.

D*uq. No nodes has been done for so long. I know you don't like us, but no need to bash and say bulls**t on forums...

Neoon · January 6

@davidgestiondbi said:

@Neoon said:
Even when they reboot, it takes from 5 min to 1h+, for what the fuck do they need so long?
GestionDBI is down since 80 minutes and counting.

I just stay with dedis, to much hassle.

D*uq. No nodes has been done for so long. I know you don't like us, but no need to bash and say bulls**t on forums...

"Server Unity GestionDBI England went offline. Detected: 06.01.2018 19:50:10"

Just checked if my Monitoring went shit, I did not:

gestiondbi · January 6

@Neoon said:

@davidgestiondbi said:

@Neoon said:
Even when they reboot, it takes from 5 min to 1h+, for what the fuck do they need so long?
GestionDBI is down since 80 minutes and counting.

I just stay with dedis, to much hassle.

D*uq. No nodes has been done for so long. I know you don't like us, but no need to bash and say bulls**t on forums...

"Server Unity GestionDBI England went offline. Detected: 06.01.2018 19:50:10"

Just checked if my Monitoring went shit, I did not:

Did you open a ticket? no
Did you try to login to SolusVM Portal? Probably not
Why you say we are down, WHEN it's your VPS that is down?

All nodes are up and running, excluding LAX-03 that is currently rebooting for the last 5 minutes.

Neoon · January 6

@davidgestiondbi said:

Did you open a ticket? no

Did you try to login to SolusVM Portal? Probably not

Why you say we are down, WHEN it's your VPS that is down?

All nodes are up and running, excluding LAX-03 that is currently rebooting for the last 5 minutes.

So, you go, reboot the nodes, and check if they back up but you do not care if the costumer VM's are backup up? well ok then.

I had 10 restarts today, this question was asked in general, I did listed just one provider, that was maybe a bit unfair but I have updated it.

At least half of them, went down for about 1 hour, so I go for each of these and open a ticket? No. I do expect that a Provider brings up the VM's and I have not to login in each panel and reboot them by hand.

Everyone got it working, except gestionDBI.

WSS · January 6

Oh, look, it's time for some @Neoon rage. Which project are you going to abandon now?

Neoon · January 6

@WSS said:
Oh, look, it's time for some @Neoon rage. Which project are you going to abandon now?

Clouvider · January 6

@Neoon said:
Even when they reboot, it takes from 5 min to 1h+, for what the fuck do they need so long?
GestionDBI,Virtmach & BandwagnHost needed a long period of time to boot up the servers back.

I just stay with dedis, to much hassle.

I guess to safely switch off all VMs?

Neoon · January 6

@Clouvider said:

@Neoon said:
Even when they reboot, it takes from 5 min to 1h+, for what the fuck do they need so long?
GestionDBI,Virtmach & BandwagnHost needed a long period of time to boot up the servers back.

I just stay with dedis, to much hassle.

I guess to safely switch off all VMs?

How many containers do you need on a single node that you need 60min+ to reboot it?

WSS · January 6

@Clouvider said:
I guess to safely switch off all VMs?

They're OVZ tho. If they're simfs, just reboot now and it'll work itself out if you've got a journaling filesystem.

Clouvider · January 6

Neoon said: How many containers do you need on a single node that you need 60min+ to reboot it?

1 Windows KVM that refuses to budge. And then you have a choice. Downtime or potential loss of data?

Neoon · January 6

@Clouvider said:

Neoon said: How many containers do you need on a single node that you need 60min+ to reboot it?

1 Windows KVM that refuses to budge. And then you have a choice. Downtime or potential loss of data?

Well I said containers, most of them where OVZ boxes.

WSS · January 6

@Clouvider said:

Neoon said: How many containers do you need on a single node that you need 60min+ to reboot it?

1 Windows KVM that refuses to budge. And then you have a choice. Downtime or potential loss of data?

Take a snapshot, shutdown, restart using snapshot?

Clouvider · January 6

@WSS said:

@Clouvider said:

Neoon said: How many containers do you need on a single node that you need 60min+ to reboot it?

1 Windows KVM that refuses to budge. And then you have a choice. Downtime or potential loss of data?

Take a snapshot, shutdown, restart using snapshot?

Always an option. Depends on how many of those stubborn VMs you have at scale, you may still get to these 60 minutes mentioned.

gestiondbi · January 6

Funny fact, longest reboot time was MTL-02, with ~35min.

WSS · January 6

@davidgestiondbi Well, this is an outrage - I could (probably) be done pooping by then!

huntercop · January 7

uh... ... ...... .. sudo (Holy shit that's half of it) apt-get (common sense part) update (omg that simple?) (hit enter) (only if I bought softlayer or theplanet!!)

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