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Is shared kernel virtualisation relevant anymore? Is LXC the next step?
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Is shared kernel virtualisation relevant anymore? Is LXC the next step?

trewqtrewq Administrator, Patron Provider

Hey everyone,

With OpenVZ gradually going out the window in favour of OpenVZ 7 what's everyone's thinking about shared kernel virtualisation like LXC? Do you think it's even relevant anymore due to the price of hardware going down?

From what I've see a shift has taken place that favours reasonably prices KVM compared to insanely barely covering IP costs shared kernel hosts.

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Comments

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    Containers will always have a place. LowEndBoxes are alive and well thanks to containers! :)

    Thanked by 2Maounique WSS
  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider
    edited November 2017

    The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

  • trewqtrewq Administrator, Patron Provider

    @MikeA said:
    The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    Simplicity I imagine. For a long time I didn't buy KVM for the simple fact that I had to worry about stuff like boot order and installing via ISO, I just wanted something that worked when I purchased it. Obviously now I know KVM is simple (and can have template installs too ;) ) as well but it felt like a huge learning curve as a consumer.

  • @trewq said:

    @MikeA said:
    The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    Simplicity I imagine. For a long time I didn't buy KVM for the simple fact that I had to worry about stuff like boot order and installing via ISO, I just wanted something that worked when I purchased it. Obviously now I know KVM is simple (and can have template installs too ;) ) as well but it felt like a huge learning curve as a consumer.

    Interestingly, my first VM purchase/rental was a KVM, having only rented or owned dedicated servers before.. It had no real learning curve for me. The learning curve then came I bought an OpenVZ for the first time and was confused with what I couldn't do at times.. fuse, Tun/tap activation?

    I don't think there's any reason for me to buy OpenVZ anymore, though. The price differential doesn't justify it anymore.

    Thanked by 2Falzo Maounique
  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited November 2017

    MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    MikeA said: ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

    I wanted to check out what you're selling, but your website is way too prem

    I suppose you sell via LET PMs or such, so who needs a website.

    trewq said: Simplicity I imagine.

    On a more serious note, I suspect the sole reason is PRICE. Nobody (sane) is trying to sell OVZ at the same price as KVM, with all other things being equal. OVZ is cheaper
    (or OVZ plans offer more of something, such as RAM, disk, or even bandwidth), that's why people buy it.

    Thanked by 1Maounique
  • MikePTMikePT Moderator, Patron Provider, Veteran

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

    I wanted to check out what you're selling, but your website is way too prem

    I suppose you sell via LET PMs or such, so why even need a website.

    Loads fine here, at least now :p

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    There are quite a few benefits to picking OpenVZ: performance, lower overhead, simplicity, ease of backups, and mobility. I personally chose OpenVZ over KVM for my personal VPSs unless I need a Windows VPS then I'll spin up something in ESXi.

    From a consumer standpoint I think it depends on the resources also. For me if I need something from another provider with more than 2GB of RAM I tend to lean towards KVM, but if it's 1GB or less I'll pick OpenVZ for the lower footprint so I can utilize more of the RAM for my apps. A good example is the 64MB RAM VPSs that we sell, a 64MB KVM doesn't make a whole lot of sense after you manage to get an OS installed but 64MB if more than enough to fit a DNS server, VPN server, web server, FTP server, and more when you use OpenVZ.

    rm_ said: Nobody (sane) is trying to sell OVZ at the same price as KVM

    Being sane is overrated. :P Even though our KVM plans are cheaper than our OpenVZ we still sell more OpenVZ for some reason.

    Thanked by 2Maounique jar
  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    This^ in a nutshell, while I understand why some people might think OpenVZ is "annoying" in terms of consumers, those people are in the minority.

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider
    edited November 2017

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    MikeA said: ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

    I wanted to check out what you're selling, but your website is way too prem

    I suppose you sell via LET PMs or such, so who needs a website.

    no need to be rude, it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks that either; a.) Openly harbor scammers/fraud or criminals b.) I've gotten over 10 fraudulent orders from. c.) Networks used by people to create 30+ accounts bypassing closures and IP bans.

    Residential networks aren't blocked, nor are common networks used by many of the big datacenters.

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited November 2017

    MikeA said: it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks

    I live in an oppressive regime with censored Internet, so I have to use VPN via a commercial ASN for my day-to-day browsing. And rather than creating an impression that you are inept and failed at setting up a website, surely you could put a page telling about the blocking in place to visitors like me?

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2017

    Containers will always have a place and OVZ is a bastardized kind of a vm in container form.
    We are thinking to launch LXC to test with unpriviledged containers, however, it will not come anywhere close to OVZ at the things it can do, all those modules we dont load anyway...
    I like containers, I really do, as Kujoe said, 64 MB KVM will hold the kernel and some libraries, while an OVZ is already usable for some limited purposes.
    It is not the overhead or performance only, that is pretty low indeed, but with today machines, insignificantly so, it is the usability of the resources and economy, you can reuse OVZ memory many times over, while in KVM a lot is wasted with all those pesky kernels which tend to grow and grow and grow... Have 200 KVMs on a node, 30 GBs RAM are wasted at least with redundant stuff replicated in each vm.
    Yes, you can over-commit to a point, but containers are much more flexible and offer more economies in terms of resources at the price of flexibility and functionality.
    Want blazing fast vm at half the price for the resources? You go OVZ, massive cheap cache to save on CPU. Need kernel access, compile your own weird shit, go KVM.
    I personally like Xen, but that is probably because I am too old and uncool.

    Thanked by 1flatland_spider
  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks

    I live in an oppressive regime with censored Internet, so I have to use VPN via a commercial ASN for my day-to-day browsing. And rather than creating an impression that you are inept and failed at setting up a website, surely you could put a page telling about the blocking in place to visitors like me?

    If they knew they were being blocked they would just find a way around it though. I ran into the same issue and all of a sudden the problem stopped when they got redirected to a error page instead. :)

    Thanked by 1Aidan
  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider
    edited November 2017

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks

    I live in an oppressive regime with censored Internet, so I have to use VPN via a commercial ASN for my day-to-day browsing. And rather than creating an impression that you are inept and failed at setting up a website, surely you could put a page telling about the blocking in place to visitors like me?

    .

    @KuJoe said:

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks

    I live in an oppressive regime with censored Internet, so I have to use VPN via a commercial ASN for my day-to-day browsing. And rather than creating an impression that you are inept and failed at setting up a website, surely you could put a page telling about the blocking in place to visitors like me?

    If they knew they were being blocked they would just find a way around it though. I ran into the same issue and all of a sudden the problem stopped when they got redirected to a error page instead. :)

    I actually had a page specifically for it and the reasons, but I guess a software update reverted it back to stock Apache files, I didn't know it modified any. I set it back to the block page I created so it should show this now - https://i.gyazo.com/279f948cb7a449339b69509bba3aadd2.png

    So either way, thanks for bringing it up so I could replace the files I guess @rm_ -- If someone sends an e-mail with their IP and e-mail I'll remove the IP basically instantly.

    And yes, I'm totally aware of countries who censor or have big privacy issues. I have many clients from Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the likes.

    no real point to go so far off topic.

    Thanked by 1rm_
  • @AnthonySmith said:

    MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    This^ in a nutshell, while I understand why some people might think OpenVZ is "annoying" in terms of consumers, those people are in the minority.

    It's FOR the annoying consumer.

  • Most of the time I prefer OpenVZ because is cheaper and this:

    KuJoe said: There are quite a few benefits to picking OpenVZ: performance, lower overhead, simplicity, ease of backups, and mobility.

    Also I can have a new clean OS in a couple of minutes with just a click. Although my new KVM provider allows me to have 2 backups... quite similar.

    I have never used LXC. Which providers sell LXC?

  • telaseratelasera Member, Host Rep

    I think containers are still a valid option in 2017. Although more & more customers are moving to KVM as prices are continuing to fall.

  • A lot of companies are moving to container fleets, but they're using Docker and Kubernetes rather then LXC/LXD or OpenVZ/Virtuozzo. I really wish RH would put some work into something besides Docker, or better yet, acquire Virtuozzo. Docker isn't built for long running application and persistence.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Host, Host Rep, Veteran

    Is anyone offering OVZ 7? I know Solus was wanting to offer it but..well, Solus.

    Francisco

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    Francisco said: Is anyone offering OVZ 7?

    I looked into it but I still don't trust ploop yet. Although adding KVM support into the OVZ 7 kernel was an interesting move. :)

  • hostfavhostfav Member, Host Rep

    imok said: I have never used LXC. Which providers sell LXC?

    We sell LXC and lot of our customers are using them. We migrated users from OpenVZ to LXC (Virtualizor OpneVZ to Proxmox LXC). Migration was very simple.

    We are also running few LXC based Production Multi Tenant PBXs. Few customers are using them for their Call Center.

    Thanked by 1imok
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited November 2017

    KuJoe said: There are quite a few benefits to picking OpenVZ: performance, lower overhead, simplicity, ease of backups, and mobility. I personally chose OpenVZ over KVM for my personal VPSs unless I need a Windows VPS then I'll spin up something in ESXi.

    This. It's a fact that you can squeeze more out of a physical server with OpenVZ than with KVM. Everyone's mind jumps to "overselling" like it's a bad thing, but it works on a personal level too. I'm not going to give a VM so little memory that it can't burst, but with KVM (for the most part, KSM isn't half of what anyone would make it out to be) I have an absolute limit to how many VMs I can make before I crash the host.

    With OpenVZ, over-provisioning memory is a huge personal benefit for my servers. To the point that I honestly can't even fathom why anyone is splitting their own dedi into KVM instances when using Linux in the VMs. Whatever you need can be done with veth and ploop, or it's documented on the wiki.

    KuJoe said: I still don't trust ploop yet

    It's fine, but it limits overprovisioning. I have a live scenario that makes you want to stick with simfs. I have two VZ containers on a host node with ploop, software RAID, and so much data stored that backups are rolling in a loop. The constant writing of large backup files (per account) and then deleting them causes the ploop volume to balloon, so I have vzctl compact also running in loops behind it because I've slightly overprovisioned with the two containers, and both ballooning to max capacity equals crisis. If you've guessed that I hover around 25% iowait, you'd be right.

    On my latest node I've gone back to simfs, there's just no reason to use ploop unless it meets a specific need.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Host, Host Rep, Veteran

    jarland said: On my latest node I've gone back to simfs, there's just no reason to use ploop unless it meets a specific need.

    I lost multiple customer VM's to ploop resizing incorrectly and corrupting itself. I'm not sure if it was something we were doing wrong (a weird conflict, etc) but after that we moved everyone back.

    Francisco

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    @Francisco said:
    Is anyone offering OVZ 7? I know Solus was wanting to offer it but..well, Solus.

    Francisco

    Virtualizor 2

    Thanked by 1Francisco
  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    I guess, since people are in for cheap vm's sure they gonna pick stuff such as OpenVZ or LXC, but if you are paranoid and want performance.

    Dedis are the future, just wait, a few times in a year, offers drop with a price so deep, you will never ever buy a shitty container again.

    But for the majority, sure they will keep buying it.

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider

    @Francisco said:

    jarland said: On my latest node I've gone back to simfs, there's just no reason to use ploop unless it meets a specific need.

    I lost multiple customer VM's to ploop resizing incorrectly and corrupting itself. I'm not sure if it was something we were doing wrong (a weird conflict, etc) but after that we moved everyone back.

    Francisco

    Glad that hasn't happened to me before, considering everything is ploop..

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider
    edited November 2017

    @Neoon said:
    Dedis are the future, just wait, a few times in a year, offers drop with a price so deep, you will never ever buy a shitty container again.

    Offers drop deep, the profits fallin' steep..

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran
    edited November 2017

    @MikeA said:

    @Neoon said:
    Dedis are the future, just wait, a few times in a year, offers drop with a price so deep, you will never ever buy a shitty container again.


    Offers drop deep, the profits fallin' steep..

    These are mostly old hardware, already paid, and limited stock.

    Before leave them on a stock pile, you put them into use again.

    Kimsufi or any other provider would make less profit yes but no loss.

    Except maybe you doing a promotion like Online.net.

    But you do calculate into, that new costumers subsidize the promo.

    Additional, there are even more reasons for OVH/Kimsuf to put these servers into stock, IP's. So they can get another /16.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Host, Host Rep, Veteran

    Neoon said: Additional, there are even more reasons for OVH/Kimsuf to put these servers into stock, IP's. So they can get another /16.

    Er, you're aware the public pools are empty and that they don't have to justify anything right? They simply swipe their Visa VC Gold card and they're transferred.

    Francisco

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran
    edited November 2017

    @Francisco said:

    Neoon said: Additional, there are even more reasons for OVH/Kimsuf to put these servers into stock, IP's. So they can get another /16.

    Er, you're aware the public pools are empty and that they don't have to justify anything right? They simply swipe their Visa VC Gold card and they're transferred.

    Francisco

    Still, they seem to be forced to use them, if you buy a block at OVH, as costumer.

    You need to use it, otherwise OVH takes the IP's away.

    They maybe have the money yes, but buying a ton of IP's without any usage, they gonna loose them again.

    Interesting would be the percentage of OVH/SYS vs Kimsufi.

  • trewqtrewq Administrator, Patron Provider

    @Neoon said:

    @Francisco said:

    Neoon said: Additional, there are even more reasons for OVH/Kimsuf to put these servers into stock, IP's. So they can get another /16.

    Er, you're aware the public pools are empty and that they don't have to justify anything right? They simply swipe their Visa VC Gold card and they're transferred.

    Francisco

    Still, they seem to be forced to use them, if you buy a block at OVH, as costumer.

    You need to use it, otherwise OVH takes the IP's away.

    They maybe have the money yes, but buying a ton of IP's without any usage, they gonna loose them again.

    Interesting would be the percentage of OVH/SYS vs Kimsufi.

    They take them away because it's more profitable long term for them to have IPs available for new server/clients that constantly buy new services.

    Thanked by 2Francisco KuJoe
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