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Trabia / AS43289 incl. all downstreams dropped off earth - Page 2
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Trabia / AS43289 incl. all downstreams dropped off earth

2

Comments

  • deadpool

  • trabiatrabia Member
    edited April 2017

    Hi guys,

    We are currently suffering from severe weather conditions.

    Starting from the night of 19th to 20th April a cold weather front hit us resulting in large snow and rain.
    Last night, 20th to 21st April, the weather worsened a lot more that even traveling within the city became hard.

    During this past 2 days, fiber optic providers, such as we, are facing issues with a lot of fiber cuts, some ISPs work round-the-clock to solve fiber cuts.
    Eventually during the night, even though we have multiple fiber optic cables on multiple paths and our teams were working already on repairing affected paths, we were hit that hard that we suffered a total blackout.

    We solved the situation temporary on alternate paths and our teams are continuously working to solve the issue entirely to re-establish the old paths.

    Currently the government released a warning, encouraging people not to leave their homes.
    Public transportation isn't working, driving or walking through the city is very hard, in some regions even impossible, the government closed several streets entirely.

    The government further announced that one district of the city will be taken down of electricity.
    We aren't affected by this, however we are either way protected by our autonomous power through UPS and Diesel Generators.

    I apologize deeply for the issues, be assured that we are working hard to fight this weather conditions and keep your services up and running smooth.

    Cheers,
    Sven

  • So are these fiber optic cables underground, or hanging on the trees?

    Thanked by 2bersy Wirrkopf
  • dedicadosdedicados Member
    edited April 2017

    this mus be bad because you really look worried... @William

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited April 2017

    rds100 said: So are these fiber optic cables underground, or hanging on the trees?

    Mostly pole fiber. As in Romania.

    Sven/Trabia also still failed to explain me why much shittier DCs had zero issues while there are only very few cables going in/out of MD.

    No mention of my SLA credit/entirely ignored, ticket was closed.

    dedicados said: this mus be bad because you really look worried... @William

    i'm very used to downtime with them, by now i don't care anymore.

    None of our own fiber optic cables were direct impacted, however every all our fiber optic providers in Moldova and in Romania are suffering from fiber cuts.

    Lie. Moldtelecom personally, just a ~15min ago, told me while there are issues that no international connectivity is affected.

    Thanked by 2doughmanes quick
  • AlexeiAlexei Member
    edited April 2017

    @William said:
    Lie. Moldtelecom personally, just a ~15min ago, told me while there are issues that no international connectivity is affected.

    Moldtelecom is a national state provider and basically monopolized underground communications left after USSR.

    So, serious datacenters should have interconnection with Moldtelecom even if it is pricey.

  • trabiatrabia Member
    edited April 2017

    @William said:
    Mostly pole fiber. As in Romania.

    It's mixed, a part of our fiber paths are in sewers others on poles. Mostly in sewers already, but not yet exclusively.

    Sven/Trabia also still failed to explain me why much shittier DCs had zero issues while there are only very few cables going in/out of MD.

    I'd guess: bad luck.
    All providers, without exception, suffered fibercuts todsy. Half of the capital was down, partially still is, such as urban areas. The government officially declared state of emergency in the morning. We have a few paths going to the borders and from the borders to our POPs in Iasi and Bucharest. If a cable that has 48 fibers breaks, depending the way it breaks, it does not mean thst all 48 fibers become unusable. There are many factors and cables separate and merge depending how they have to go.

    No mention of my SLA credit/entirely ignored, ticket was closed.

    This is declared as force major, which does not fall into an SLA. However, it was stated that you will receive a separate email later.

    Lie. Moldtelecom personally, just a ~15min ago, told me while there are issues that no international connectivity is affected.

    We do not take connectivity from any local Moldovan ISP. We do lease only dark fibers or wavelengths from various different providers that have cables crossing the borders, therefor it is impossible for Moldtelecom to know our infrastructure nor what worked and what did not, they can speak only for themselves. All statements provided were accurate. In Romania, CFR and Telekom struggled hard with fiber cuts with which as well many Moldovan providers had to struggle with, and still do.

    Cheers,
    Sven

  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited April 2017

    trabia said: This is declared as force major, which does not fall into an SLA. However, it was stated that you will receive a separate email later.

    Nice try, but no:

    10.1 clearly states "were not reasonably foreseeable" - you were very well aware of the weather and issues before already (you stated this above also personally), so you broke this.

    Thus i am eligible for compensation per 7.3.

    EDIT: received compensation for the downtime, but will not accept it as force majeure case, as it simply is not. I want Trabia to state it was not.

  • @William said:

    trabia said: This is declared as force major, which does not fall into an SLA. However, it was stated that you will receive a separate email later.

    Nice try, but no:

    10.1 clearly states "were not reasonably foreseeable" - you were very well aware of the weather and issues before already (you stated this above also personally), so you broke this.

    Thus i am eligible for compensation per 7.3.

    EDIT: received compensation for the downtime, but will not accept it as force majeure case, as it simply is not. I want Trabia to state it was not.

    Calamities due to force of nature out of the common fall under force majeur in pretty every legislation I know. Government declaring emergency puts the official seal on the current situation being uncommon force of nature.

    Well noted I do not take a side here and I do not know whether trabias statements are true. But if they are true then that's a classical case of force majeur.

    Thanked by 2trabia chrisp
  • @bsdguy said:
    But if they are true then that's a classical case of force majeur.

    https://www.facebook.com/sven.wiese/posts/1596230870396500

    Enjoy the pictures :)

  • @trabia said:

    @bsdguy said:
    But if they are true then that's a classical case of force majeur.

    https://www.facebook.com/sven.wiese/posts/1596230870396500

    Enjoy the pictures :)

    a) I can't see anything on facebook as I have no account there.
    b) my point wasn't to say you are a liar but not to take sides and to make clear that what you described clearly is a case of force majeur.

    Thanked by 1trabia
  • trabiatrabia Member
    edited April 2017

    @bsdguy said:
    a) I can't see anything on facebook as I have no account there.

    Not everyone needs to have an account. :)

    @bsdguy said:
    b) my point wasn't to say you are a liar but not to take sides and to make clear that what you described clearly is a case of force majeur.

    And I understood it in this way and that's the most correct way!

    Cheers,
    Sven

  • TomTom Member

    @bsdguy said:

    a) I can't see anything on facebook as I have no account there.

    There's 35 pictures there, but a select few: here here and here

  • A lot of fiber there :) I guess that explains the problems.

    image

    Thanked by 1trabia
  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited April 2017

    bsdguy said: Government declaring emergency puts the official seal on the current situation being uncommon force of nature.

    This was after the outage (you can also see this on Svens FB and the official gov site if you speak Romanian or Russian):

    trabia said: Currently the government released a warning

  • Doesn't matter. The government said it regarding that current situation which is still not over..

  • @rds100 said:
    A lot of fiber there :) I guess that explains the problems.

    It's pretty bad. There are still and will be for the next days, a lot of techs going around the country fixing fiber optic cables. The only Tier 1 provider present in the country, Cogent, is entirely down since about 22+ hours already and they have their own 3 paths to two different countries (Ukraine and Romania) and they still do not have an ETR yet. We handled the situation as fast and best as possible.

    A lot of people faced damages, on buildings, cars, companies with services, etc.

    I hope for everyone that it will be over soon and we will have a better spring after cleaning up :)

    Cheers,
    Sven

  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited April 2017

    bsdguy said: Doesn't matter. The government said it regarding that current situation which is still not over..

    After i sent in and after the outage. This is clear (and verifiable) - no such thing as retroactive emergency state. This ain't Turkey or Saudi Arabia.

    Analogy with criminal - If you smoke weed today, and the gov tomorrow decides it is illegal, they cannot jail you (unless you live in a shithole of a dictatorship).

    Point stands - days bad weather, NO gov emergency state, outage, THEN emergency state. At the time of outage there was none and the issues were predictable to them, so the ToS point is valid and this is not force majeure (that a Romanian speaker should be able to write correctly at least.).

  • @William Governments don't exactly declare emergency on every bad weather. They wait till shit goes to hell first, for the obvious reason that state of emergency -> more money spent.

    Thanked by 1jvnadr
  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited April 2017

    Correct. Thus it was none until then and they cannot claim this.

  • In other words:

    a) Bad weather begins happening and the DC gets hit with issues. No emergency declared yet.

    b) Bad weather continues until eventually a state of emergency is declared by the gov (like a day later? - didn't follow closely)

    Your claim is that force majore technically begins from the point of (b) - to which I am not a legal expert to know if it is so. It is well possible that you are correct.

    My only question is, does it feel right by going down that path that way? Exploiting a possible technicality? I mean, I'd understand if a lot of money is involved, but is it?

    Thanked by 1asf
  • @William

    Wrong. It's not that it's force majeur starting at the point in time the government declares so.
    The whole event is force majeur. The gov., no matter whether immediately or some days later, saying it is so, is just making it official.

    Assume the gov. didn't say so then e.g. you and trabia would need to go to court for a legally relevant judgement whether it was force majeur or whether the event was within the common for which a company must be prepared.
    However, wth the gov. declaring so, it's an established fact.

    For a somewhat stupid comparison: If you fall ill on tuesday and see the doctor only on thursday and only then the doctor declares that you are ill, your illness still started on tuesday.

    Similarly the weather "catastrophy" began when it began, no matter on which day the gov. officially declared it to be a nature event out of the common.

    Thanked by 1asf
  • patrick7patrick7 Member, LIR

    I think it's about 7$

  • jvnadrjvnadr Member
    edited April 2017

    @William @Deadbeef usually a Government declaration of an emergency state, is covering all issues caused by a disaster (physical or human). It does not apply from the time the declaration has been issued, but from the time the issue happened. As an example, an earthquake could damage public and private infrastructure. After reviewing the damages, a government can declare an area to an emergency state. The declaration covers what happened from the minute earthquake happened, not from the publishing of the declaration.
    That's from a legal perspective in the EU (but I suppose all countries do have similar conditions)

    Thanked by 2deadbeef PepeSilvia
  • deadbeef said: My only question is, does it feel right by going down that path that way? Exploiting a possible technicality? I mean, I'd understand if a lot of money is involved, but is it?

    Unfortunately, yes it is. That's why there are contracts. Companies that cover their clients (e.g. an SLA for conditions like @William 's) usually do have insurance that is paying to protect them from bankruptcy. If it is written in the contract that they will not cover an outage caused by a physical disaster, then, they won't because they are not covered either from an insurance.
    Of course this apply to big companies, because if we are going to speak for some one-man-show LET providers with a couple of server on a rack, usually there is no real contract, SLA, insurance etc. :)

    Thanked by 1deadbeef
  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited April 2017

    bsdguy said: For a somewhat stupid comparison: If you fall ill on tuesday and see the doctor only on thursday and only then the doctor declares that you are ill, your illness still started on tuesday.

    And i only get paid sick money after Thursday, so that comparison is... weird?

    Further, if you want to go that way - there is no "state of emergency" as in a war situation, only an extended warning and some limitations.

    bsdguy said: Assume the gov. didn't say so then e.g. you and trabia would need to go to court for a legally relevant judgement

    Yea, don't get me onto it. Lawyers there cost 20$/hr, and that are the good ones - problem is that no MD court is independent and corrupt, as is half the gov (also proven).

    jvnadr said: That's from a legal perspective in the EU (but I suppose all countries do have similar conditions)

    Moldova uses USSR and Romanian laws pre-EU mixed and is not an EU member. The legal code (in Romanian and Russian, mostly court decisions that quote the entire law then inside) is online available and a clusterfuck itself: http://lex.justice.md/

    patrick7 said: I think it's about 7$

    Less. Few cent in server costs. Not the point either.

    Again: I got my compensation. I want them, like my other MD ISP, to accept and clearly state this is not a force majeure (that apparently no one here can write correctly) case.

    deadbeef said: My only question is, does it feel right by going down that path that way? Exploiting a possible technicality? I mean, I'd understand if a lot of money is involved, but is it?

    Why does that matter to you? Maybe there is a lot of loss that happened due to this, you have ever seen me open a "ISP is down" thread? Go figure.

    And asking me "If it feels right" is the most funny thing i heard this year, i would sue DTAG for 3 cents in loss if i see the chance to win, or ruin small companies to bankruptcy if i see it as justified.

    Thanked by 1Kevinjoa
  • William said: Moldova uses USSR and Romanian laws pre-EU mixed and is not an EU member

    I know they are not an EU member, but most countries worldwide, at least in Europe (including ex USSR ones) do have similar laws. For sure, Russia do have conditions like the one I described, it was used in a massive agricultural and infrastructure damage due to weather conditions last year.

  • @William said:

    deadbeef said: My only question is, does it feel right by going down that path that way? Exploiting a possible technicality? I mean, I'd understand if a lot of money is involved, but is it?

    Why does that matter to you? Maybe there is a lot of loss that happened due to this, you have ever seen me open a "ISP is down" thread? Go figure.

    Riiiiight.

    And asking me "If it feels right" is the most funny thing i heard this year,

    So my question hit the bullseye.

    i would sue DTAG for 3 cents in loss if i see the chance to win, or ruin small companies to bankruptcy if i see it as justified.

    This actually clearly answers my question, thanks.

    Thanked by 3jvnadr vimalware Yura
  • jvnadrjvnadr Member
    edited April 2017

    deadbeef said: This actually clearly answers my question, thanks.

    7$ :)

    Thanked by 1deadbeef
  • William said: And i only get paid sick money after Thursday, so that comparison is... weird?

    No. If the doctor confirm that your illness started on Tuesday, you will get sick money from Tuesday, not Thursday. Admit that you may do not have right here. Or, maybe, sue them!

This discussion has been closed.