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PSA: PayPal policy changes - Page 2
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PSA: PayPal policy changes

2

Comments

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    jh said: but the main (only?) reason service providers offer Paypal is because it saves the customer a few seconds at checkout.

    Unfortunately, it's not that simple. As somebody who lives in the Netherlands - where creditcards are far from common - my online payment options basically consist of Bitcoin, PayPal, and iDeal. That's it. The latter is NL-specific, and only supported by a few payment processors that all have their own share of problems.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • Their real money maker is the poor exchange rate they offer, they make another couple/few percent on that.

    Thanked by 2netomx maverickp
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    PayPal makes me really happy and we work well together. They take what I consider to be a reasonable fee considering how much more business I get from using a major and well liked payment processor among my users. They're really good to me and I'd buy my account executive a beer any day.

    Just figured I'd add some positivity to the mix :)

  • joepie91 said: Unfortunately, it's not that simple. As somebody who lives in the Netherlands - where creditcards are far from common - my online payment options basically consist of Bitcoin, PayPal, and iDeal. That's it. The latter is NL-specific, and only supported by a few payment processors that all have their own share of problems.

    So what do you do when you buy groceries? Is cash widely used?

    What about GoCardless? They have an EU option (I know waiting a few days to get acceptance wouldn't work for LET hosts.. I just want to understand the problem!)

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    jh said: So what do you do when you buy groceries? Is cash widely used?

    We have bank/ATM cards, they're just not creditcards (nor do they have a number that you can pay with). This is what a typical Dutch bank card looks like:

    It contains just the name and the IBAN, and the card is essentially useless without knowing the PIN. For online payments, we use iDeal, which is an e-commerce payment system that integrates directly with the e-banking system of your own bank. Payments are usually authorized with something like this:

    ... and are executed as SEPA transactions straight into the recipient's bank account. A similar EU-wide system is due to be rolled out somewhere in 2017, if I'm not mistaken.

    Of course, cash is still used frequently as well.

    What about GoCardless? They have an EU option (I know waiting a few days to get acceptance wouldn't work for LET hosts.. I just want to understand the problem!)

    Not every customer will necessarily want recurring payments to be handled automatically, especially if they're on a tight budget. There may also be other reasons why people don't use them - I'm not a hosting provider, so I would have no idea about those :)

    Thanked by 1jh
  • @joepie91 said:

    @eastonch said:
    Hopefully this stops all those additional payment fees, "Buy with PayPal, pay an extra 5%", "Buy with WorldPay/SagePay and pay 0% additionally"

    You'll now likely just pay 5% extra across the board.

    Yep this is how it works.

    In the UK, women used to get cheaper car insurance than men, and people complained, so they changed the rules that they couldn't give different prices based on gender.

    But instead of reducing the price for men, they just increased the price for women to be leve with men so they make more money. Was a nice win for them.

    Thanked by 1inthecloudblog
  • @jiggawattz said:
    These are the same terms that Visa, MasterCard, et al have had for decades...

    Nothing new. Same ole shit. You can't charge more for one payment method over another... you can't give preferential treatment to one payment method over another...

    There's no nefarious plot here. PayPal is just explicitly bringing its terms in line with what is standard in the industry.

    quoting the only correct post here - these kinds of policies have existed as long as payment processors have, and for obvious reason - no one wants to give you access to their payment network but be forced to take second billing

  • @joepie91 interesting! great for NL payments but what a PITA for travelling, online etc. In France, cards are co-branded as Carte Bleue and Visa/MC which is much better.

  • I know recently OVH dropped their PayPal fee, so I'm wondering if they was spoken to, I can imagine OVH put quite a bit through PayPal so I'm not surprised.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    jh said: In France, cards are co-branded as Carte Bleue and Visa/MC which is much better.

    Perhaps, perhaps not. It also means that we don't get the massive security risks of the creditcard system :)

  • jiggawattjiggawatt Member
    edited September 2016

    joepie91 said:

    Hmm. That's quite ambiguous, actually... they state that you should treat PayPal on par (without going into details), but then implicitly allow "surcharging for the use of PayPal", which implies that surcharging just for PayPal is fine.

    I'm guessing that lawyers are going to have a field day with this...

    No, they're not.

    These are the same written terms that credit card companies have in their agreements with merchants. The purpose is to prevent a merchant from favoring one payment method over another (e.g., with a "PayPal" fee.) Merchants have been honoring these same terms with credit card companies for decade(s) - not really any issues.

    Terms like these are always somewhat ambiguous - in every kind of legalese agreement, in every industry. This is not unique to PayPal, and it's not an indication of some nefarious plot. Remember: merchants are PayPal's customers too and the industry is competitive with Stripe, Bitcoin, WePay and countless other new payment methods.

  • DewlanceVPSDewlanceVPS Member, Patron Provider

    PayPal scared by Bitcoin, Many providers charge fees for PayPal and did not charge fees for bitcoin which create problem for PayPal. Revenue loss.


  • DewlanceVPS said: PayPal scared by Bitcoin, Many providers charge fees for PayPal and did not charge fees for bitcoin which create problem for PayPal. Revenue loss.

    Do you really think Bitcoin is being widely used enough for Paypal to be worried right now? Also, isn't there nearly always a fee paid somewhere along the line when you use Bitcoin?

  • @DewlanceVPS said:
    PayPal scared by Bitcoin, Many providers charge fees for PayPal and did not charge fees for bitcoin which create problem for PayPal. Revenue loss.


    Paypal is about as scared of Bitcoin as legitimate hosting providers are scared of DewLanceVPS

  • As a customer, PayPal is super convenient. If you don't support it, there is a high chance I'm going to be too lazy to get my credit card out of my wallet.

  • @daily said:
    As a customer, PayPal is super convenient. If you don't support it, there is a high chance I'm going to be too lazy to get my credit card out of my wallet.

    gotta be honest, same for me, and 100x more true when it comes to places I buy from where my purchases are impulse-buys, like Bandcamp

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider
    edited September 2016

    @jarland said:
    PayPal makes me really happy and we work well together. They take what I consider to be a reasonable fee considering how much more business I get from using a major and well liked payment processor among my users. They're really good to me and I'd buy my account executive a beer any day.

    Just figured I'd add some positivity to the mix :)

    Same. I've always loved PayPal. Phone support is super fast/friendly.

    Thanked by 1MikePT
  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    This ought to be good for a $2.50 class action settlement check in about 10 years.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited September 2016

    joepie91 said: Given WHMCS' approach of representing payment options on invoices as a dropdown, it's possible that having a provider other than PayPal as the default option could run afoul of this policy...

    Same as the payment gateway charge (which is forbidden in the US but allowed inside the EU) this rule is very likely not enforceable inside the EU even if they wanted to.

    joepie91 said: Unfortunately, it's not that simple. As somebody who lives in the Netherlands - where creditcards are far from common - my online payment options basically consist of Bitcoin, PayPal, and iDeal. That's it. The latter is NL-specific, and only supported by a few payment processors that all have their own share of problems.

    Despite possibly not being common with locals (no idea) i had no acceptance issues with CCs in NL, your banks are probably just not handing them out by default on a debit (UK and alike) or credit (AT, DE, SE) system so your local system (which is like our Maestro and works on ATMs and some payment gateways with our cards) is preference, plus it is probably near free as here.

    Not sure how integrated the NL system is but my Maestro card from Austria works fine here in Croatia as well as it does in Spain, Slovakia and Greece (and Germany, ironically worse), and the CC acceptance in Croatia is surprisingly high also. If you nowadays want to pay by CC inside the EU you'll likely get what you want with it rather simple.

  • I haven't used Paypal since a "software glitch" charged the same thing 14 times about a month ago at the same time. Directly state that payment cards issued by FDIC-insured banking institutions and only 1 Paypal card remains eligible.

    Since a contract is a legally enforceable set of agreements, if it's not enforceable, especially a material term but in some interpretations, any term, then the contract doesn't exist. Paypal's ToS haven't been actually fully enforceable for a long time and they're one missed integration clause away from being complete junk.

    It's not nefarious, it's attempting to be inclusive, because even American state laws vary so much that there's no singular ToS that can be fully enforceable in every jurisdiction because some clauses will necessarily contradict. The issue is when do they go too far? D. Nevada have already been rejecting mandatory arbitration. Non-bargained-for agreements are never going to stand up for long. For the longest time PP's link to their ToS was broken. If anyone has the time and energy to start a shitshow they can get at least some publicity.

    But not too many people do.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    William said: Despite possibly not being common with locals (no idea) i had no acceptance issues with CCs in NL, your banks are probably just not handing them out by default on a debit (UK and alike) or credit (AT, DE, SE) system so your local system (which is like our Maestro and works on ATMs and some payment gateways with our cards) is preference, plus it is probably near free as here.

    They are indeed not common, and it's surprisingly hard to obtain one. While CCs are accepted in many places, they are nowhere near as ubiquitous as Maestro(-ish) cards, and especially outside of the big cities, you're going to run into many venues that simply won't accept CCs at all.

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep
    edited September 2016

    I haven't read the whole thread but based on the policy there shouldn't be any issue with WHMCS. When you place an order you're given a radio button selection of payment gateways which meets the criteria of this policy. Once the client selects their default gateway PayPal has no say in the matter. How the invoice looks shouldn't matter since the clients are offered a selection that makes PayPal "at least at par with other payment methods offered".

    At least this is how the "Modern" cart is configured.

  • jiggawattjiggawatt Member
    edited September 2016

    William said:

    Not sure how integrated the NL system is but my Maestro card from Austria works fine here in Croatia as well as it does in Spain, Slovakia and Greece (and Germany, ironically worse), and the CC acceptance in Croatia is surprisingly high also. If you nowadays want to pay by CC inside the EU you'll likely get what you want with it rather simple.

    My friend from Amsterdam uses a Maestro card every time he comes to Belarus. @joepie91 's insinuation that Visa/MasterCards/Maestros are not obtainable in NL is bogus, and he's choosing to believe this because it fuels the anti-corporate paranoia he wants to feel.

    The locals might not actually use Visa/MasterCards/Maestro a lot or even request them from banks - similar to how Germans (and myself included) tend to prefer cash. But to suggest he's boxed in is ludicrous.

  • DylanDylan Member
    edited September 2016

    This is only an EU terms change -- the US terms are different and have had this (better worded) clause for years:

    You must offer PayPal as a payment option together with the other payment options you offer. The PayPal acceptance mark must be displayed with equal prominence to the logos for your other payment options. You shall not discriminate against PayPal, nor discourage its use, as a payment option over any other payment option offered by you.

    https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/provt-full?locale.x=en_US

  • jiggawattjiggawatt Member
    edited September 2016

    joepie91 said: They are indeed not common, and it's surprisingly hard to obtain one. While CCs are accepted in many places, they are nowhere near as ubiquitous as Maestro(-ish) cards, and especially outside of the big cities, you're going to run into many venues that simply won't accept CCs at all.

    Just FYI - "credit card" is a catch-all term that encompasses all Visa/MasterCard/Cirrus/Maestro/AMEX/Discover cards, whether a bank is actually extending credit or simply issuing a debit card.

    Every bank in NL issues a Maestro and that's accepted everywhere MasterCard is accepted.

    However - most VPS providers do not accept pre-paid cards but that's different than a Maestro debit card.

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    Haha, Paypal is funny, some EBay/Paypal bug, they charged me 3 Times the same shit, so I needed to do a Chargeback for 2 of 3 of them.

    But Paypal told me, they cannot do much, if the seller claims all of the 3 I am fucked.

    Seriously, what the fuck? Go home Paypal you are drunk.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @jiggawattz said:

    joepie91 said: They are indeed not common, and it's surprisingly hard to obtain one. While CCs are accepted in many places, they are nowhere near as ubiquitous as Maestro(-ish) cards, and especially outside of the big cities, you're going to run into many venues that simply won't accept CCs at all.

    Just FYI - "credit card" is a catch-all term that encompasses all Visa/MasterCard/Cirrus/Maestro/AMEX/Discover cards, whether a bank is actually extending credit or simply issuing a debit card.

    Every bank in NL issues a Maestro and that's accepted everywhere MasterCard is accepted.

    However - most VPS providers do not accept pre-paid cards but that's different than a Maestro debit card.

    I don't know why you believe you understand the payment infrastructure here better than somebody who actually lives here. No, Dutch bank cards are not accepted "everywhere MasterCard is accepted", and they don't even have a "creditcard number".

  • joepie91 said: I don't know why you believe you understand the payment infrastructure here better than somebody who actually lives here.

    Because indeed I do know...

    Also fyi - if you want a MasterCard credit card - as in the bank extends actual credit to you - you can get one from ING with any bank account and it comes with the 16 magical numbers that you can use online. Call them up. I don't even think you have to tell them your profession because, as we all know, that's offensive in NL.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    jiggawattz said: Because indeed I do know...

    You apparently don't, judging from your (blatantly false) claims that "Dutch bank cards work everywhere MasterCard is accepted".

    jiggawattz said: Also fyi - if you want a MasterCard credit card - as in the bank extends actual credit to you - you can get one from ING with any bank account and it comes with the 16 magical numbers that you can use online.

    Requires an ING bank account with a minimum monthly income to that bank account, proof of income, based on expense patterns, and so on. Far from trivial to obtain if you do not have a single employer or if your income doesn't go straight to a bank account.

  • jiggawattjiggawatt Member
    edited September 2016

    joepie91 said: You apparently don't, judging from your (blatantly false) claims that "Dutch bank cards work everywhere MasterCard is accepted".

    I never said Dutch bank cards work everywhere MasterCard is accepted - I said all Dutch banks will issue you a credit card if you ask..

    :P

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