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Is it moral to host people who commit fraud when you cant prove it? - Page 2
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Is it moral to host people who commit fraud when you cant prove it?

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Comments

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited November 2015

    @lucast said:

    For me, maxmind is a good example of tool to harm honests users (incompentence providers use as rule)

    Sometimes you do what you have to do to protect your customers. Remember, an abusive customer is not always just a problem for the provider, it can also be a problem for other users and the stability of their services. You owe it to your customers to protect the service. Maxmind is one tool that can assist with filtering orders according to risk factor. It is not an all knowing, always correct thing, but that doesn't mean it is without value.

    Often fraud prevention is not a first thought, but implemented as a direct result of actual events. For me, maxmind integration helped me stop a PayPal phishing ring from repeatedly utilizing my service, its implementation was 100% a reaction to that event and it resolved it.

    Thanked by 1postcd
  • risharderisharde Patron Provider, Veteran

    @Mark_R said:

    I agree with your last comment @Mark_R, don't get me wrong. This is why it is extremely tricky and I don't see a true formula to solve this once and for all. I tend to think of it like how I think about freedom - where do we draw the line - if one were to be truly be free, then one could commit murder (understand the seriousness involved) - where do we draw the line, how do we all agree where the line should be (impossible for all to agree on this). Not to stray, I agree with @jarland's points as well "Sometimes you do what you have to do to protect your customers." which sounds like a dynamic approach where one solution doesn't fit all and being adaptive and responsive is the best approach.

  • lucastlucast Member
    edited November 2015

    @jarland said:
    Often fraud prevention is not a first thought, but implemented as a direct result of actual events. For me, maxmind integration helped me stop a PayPal phishing ring from repeatedly utilizing my service, its implementation was 100% a reaction to that event and it resolved it.

    Thank you jarland for your opinion.
    But you think is a good pratice use maxmind to rule registers?
    You can mark some user as 'maxmind failed' and monitore this user.
    Example: I'm not a spammer or nothing like this but maxmind block me because I use vpn (my internet provider do traffic shapping).

  • yes, proxy is not evil thing but from my experience most proxy users do bad things on hosting. Some hosting provider simply decide he will rather miss some good customers instead of being directly faced by loads of fraudsters having instant, automatic access to the server. PS: Maxmind WHMCS settings can be tweaked regarding proxies, then its about which antifraud system you use.

    Thanked by 1lucast
  • Maxmind

    I've been on the wrong end of 'marked as fraud' a few times, mainly due to me being in a different country than signup details or similar.

    Still, for providers I'm sure they'd prefer a few innocents getting stuck in the net rather than getting stuck with fraud that may eventually harm their payment processing facilities.

    The anti-fraud tools are fairly rudimentary but really, it's common sense and the discretion of the provider.

  • doghouchdoghouch Member
    edited November 2015

    @linuxthefish said:
    Cancel and refund, it's not worth being caught up in something like that

    Where I work at, we don't even give refunds when you commit fraud. It is a direct violation of the legal terms, which also includes this wonderful sentence: "... furthermore, if the customer violates any law of the U.S.A (the " United States Of America," the service/product will be terminated immediately with no prior notification unless we specify otherwise." :)

  • doghouch: yes, but we are talking about case when provider do not have proof

  • linuxthefishlinuxthefish Member
    edited November 2015

    @doghouch said:
    Where I work at, we don't even give refunds when you commit fraud. It is a direct violation of the legal terms, which also includes this wonderful sentence: "... furthermore, if the customer violates any law of the U.S.A (the " United States Of America," the service/product will be terminated immediately with no prior notification unless we specify otherwise." :)

    Even in cases where the guy is clearly a spammer or whatever (fraudrecord record, asks for rdns), I just refund to avoid any disputes down the line...

    Better safe than sorry, especially when I can't prove anything. Of course someone who sends DoS attacks or a ton of spam does not get a refund!

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    lucast said: I'm not a spammer or nothing like this but maxmind block me because I use vpn (my internet provider do traffic shapping).

    Ouch! Your ISP shapes your traffic so much that you can't access a website that's a few hundred KB at most? I feel bad for you but it's still not a legitimate reason to order with a VPN IMO (if it's snowing outside my bank still doesn't let me withdraw money with a ski mask on).

    Thanked by 1NexHost
  • @KuJoe said:
    Ouch! Your ISP shapes your traffic so much that you can't access a website that's a few hundred KB at most? I feel bad for you but it's still not a legitimate reason to order with a VPN IMO (if it's snowing outside my bank still doesn't let me withdraw money with a ski mask on).

    They'd probably call for... SECURITY!

  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited November 2015

    KuJoe said: Ouch! Your ISP shapes your traffic so much that you can't access a website that's a few hundred KB at most? I feel bad for you but it's still not a legitimate reason to order with a VPN IMO (if it's snowing outside my bank still doesn't let me withdraw money with a ski mask on).

    Your site, among others, does not work in most Chinese networks. It is also unreachable from Iran and Afghanistan (ITC does not even resolve the DNS).

  • @KuJoe said:
    Ouch! Your ISP shapes your traffic so much that you can't access a website that's a few hundred KB at most? I feel bad for you but it's still not a legitimate reason to order with a VPN IMO (if it's snowing outside my bank still doesn't let me withdraw money with a ski mask on).

    Yeah, you are right, i disable openvpn when I will order something (well, sometimes I forget).
    I can understand if you use maxmind.
    I do not agree to use to control/rule your accounts/orders.

  • avoiding scammers is always great, but suspicion is not good enough to take action against them, at least in my opinion. Innocent until proven guilty is a better way of running things than assigning guilt on some suspicious activity, being weird or suspicious isn't a crime

  • doghouch said: furthermore, if the customer violates any law of the U.S.A (the " United States Of America," the service/product will be terminated immediately with no prior notification unless we specify otherwise." :)

    That could be a real money maker. I assume that would include parking tickets as well as really evil things like conspiracy to jaywalk.

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