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Is it moral to host people who commit fraud when you cant prove it?
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Is it moral to host people who commit fraud when you cant prove it?

Assuming that You are as a shared hosting provider sure that on your server are people who use the server in fraudulent activities, but you cant prove it. (example user send out email pretending to be someone else and trick someone to send him money)

Is it more moral to rather shut down server and stop providing public hosting service or to keep it running while serving as an essential medium for committing fraud?

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Comments

  • Cancel and refund, it's not worth being caught up in something like that

  • DalCompDalComp Member
    edited November 2015

    nevermind. Insomnia, I should stop LET-ing.

  • If you can prove he sent the fraud mail, go for it. Those thrash has no rights.

  • But how do you know the people you're hosting are doing fraudulent activities ? You say that you can't prove it, so no proof and no complaints too. How did you suspect this ?

    You're worst than the suspected fraudster ... :)

    Thanked by 1NanoG6
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    I'd be concerned as to how you know it's happening and can't prove it at the same time.

  • Is this like the argument about going back in time to kill baby Hitler?

  • i know based on experience & past abuse reports, but "how i know" is not why i created this topic

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited November 2015

    @postcd said:
    i know based on experience & past abuse reports, but "how i know" is not why i created this topic

    It's relevant. If you know, you can terminate. If you cannot prove it, I propose that either you do not know or do not want to expose how you know. If you do not know, it's hard to terminate, and if you're spying on things you don't want to admit to your client as proof, that's another story entirely.

    Repeat abuse reports from sources you trust should be adequate proof. You shouldn't be expected to capture the raw packets and offer undeniable proof of what they're doing. Then you just get accused of privacy violations.

    Just my personal opinion.

    Thanked by 1risharde
  • If you want to get rid of the customer, then just send them an email and say that you will not be renewing their services next month and to migrate their data in time.

  • Moral or not, you don't want to host someone who you know is doing illegal things. It might complicate your own life. So better get rid of that customer. You shouldn't have accepted their order at all if you knew he is after illegal things.

  • You shouldn't know the contents of e-mails being sent by your users.

    Knowing the contents of the e-mails creates a ton of moral (as well as legal) problems.

    Ignorance is bliss.

  • I say, even if you speculate someone is committing fraud, terminate them. Not worth the hassle, make sure your TOS indicates you can terminate without notice, or refund at your sole discretion.

    Thanked by 2postcd netomx
  • risharderisharde Patron Provider, Veteran

    @Singsing but control panels like cpanel.. I think they give you access to emails etc. Now the question is, if you get a complaint for example, shouldnt a provider be allowed to investigate? Its sometimes a fine line between this privacy we speak of and plain ignorance on the part of a provider. Particularly so if the provider can be held accountable.

  • risharderisharde Patron Provider, Veteran

    Next point is, not everyone has morals.... so... that is subjective. My opinion though is I wouldn't want to host anyone doing fraud simply for the moral stand point that I believe I should be the helping the world as opposed to making it worse (morals or my definition of it)

    Thanked by 1postcd
  • risharde said: Now the question is, if you get a complaint for example, shouldnt a provider be allowed to investigate?

    No. The provider should forward the complaint to the customer, and, depending on the severity and number of complaints, decide whether to terminate the customer (based on the data in the complaint alone).

    risharde said: Its sometimes a fine line between this privacy we speak of and plain ignorance on the part of a provider. Particularly so if the provider can be held accountable.

    A provider can be held accountable for willful blindness in some cases, but I do not think this would ever be considered to impose a duty to breach customer privacy.

    Of course, once a provider gets the sense of a fishy smell from an account (through complaints or from statistical data), the provider should simply tell the customer to move it along elsewhere, for the provider's protection.

    I can understand the financial motivation for a provider to want to investigate in order to retain customers that receive complaints on a case-by-case basis, but I can only see that being a massive source of liability.

  • FlamesRunnerFlamesRunner Member
    edited November 2015

    Just wait until you get a spammer.

    Here's what happens when you host a spammer:

    1. They use a stolen credit card/funds obtained through committing fraud

    2. They purchase a dedicated server with you, preferably the one which is the cheapest and with the most IPv4 addresses (generally /29 or a /24)

    3. They spam the crap out of the IPs

    (optional) 4. They charge back

    1. You get trapped paying for the IP scrubbing

    2. The spammers repeat step 1

    Edit: fine

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited November 2015

    FlamesRunner said: The spammers repeat step 1

    There's the flaw. Let me rewrite that... ;)

    7. You notice a pattern, adjust fraud detection to compensate.
    
    8. Play halo.
    Thanked by 2risharde netomx
  • First question, is it moral to invade users privacy? If it is, then use @postcd 's hosting :D.

  • Everyone has moral its part of human being.

    I followed the presumption of innocence principle

    Thanked by 1postcd
  • FlamesRunner said: They use a stolen credit card/funds obtained through committing fraud

    FlamesRunner said: They charge back

    Doesn't make sense. Why bother to charge back if it's not your card?

  • FlamesRunnerFlamesRunner Member
    edited November 2015

    So they can further abuse the funds ;)

    @jarland, different spammers, different patterns. I don't know why, but it seems like spammers somehow get a hold on residential IPs and beat through MaxMind :/

    The ironic part is that recently, MaxMind has been blocking more real clients then fraudsters :p

    Thanked by 2jar singsing
  • @postcd Sometimes we encounter a tricky situation that we know bad things going on, but we cannot prove it without violating the law (in this case customer's privacy).

    For certain, it makes you worry, if the customer do more than just faking ID, but he/she also commits crime. In this case you might have to take blame of something you didn't do, that might involve loss of money. (From cleaning IP range to your hardware confiscation).

    My advise, improve fraud detection before they use your service, "See No Evil Hear No Evil" but be reactive to take precautions when you receive complains from others.

    Yes, sometimes something beneficial and practical, but immoral and mostly high risk.

    It is up to you now how far you would risk it.

    Thanked by 1postcd
  • The ironic part is that recently, MaxMind has been blocking more real clients then fraudsters :p

    For me, maxmind is a good example of tool to harm honests users (incompentence providers use as rule)

    Thanked by 2Ole_Juul Mark_R
  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    Hell yes deny them service if they are or have done something illegal. I've blocked many orders from people who are active on certain forums or have used "stressers" in the past (protip: a lot of kids order hosting service with the same e-mail you use to DDOS people and most of the popular "stresser" databases are available in plain text these days).

  • lucast said: maxmind is a good example of tool to harm honests users

    And thereby harms the reputation of honest vendors.

  • You can always have a short conversation with your client and ask why that is being done. Perhaps his/her account is hacked and client have what idea that something wrong is taking place within his account.
    If that would be confirmed in some way that is a good idea to find a formal reason and politely stop providing the service for such client and send refund.

  • @risharde said:
    Next point is, not everyone has morals.... so... that is subjective. My opinion though is I wouldn't want to host anyone doing fraud simply for the moral stand point that I believe I should be the helping the world as opposed to making it worse (morals or my definition of it)

    customers are not paying for your moral input.

  • risharderisharde Patron Provider, Veteran
    edited November 2015

    @Mark_R said:

    Oh please, spare me the authoritative comment. While you might be right for the majority of customers that is not the case for everyone. Some people purchase from reputable providers because they are reputable (and that sometimes means having some standard - whether you call it quality... whether its based on morals etc).

    And another case in point is that some providers do not allow for example "adult/porn" websites even when their network allows it simply because they have taken some sort of stance against perhaps what they believe?... Explain that then as well...

    And on a totally different angle, some people prefer to not sell blood diamonds, they're 'providers' as well... explain that too...

  • @risharde said:
    Oh please, spare me the authoritative comment. While you might be right for the majority of customers that is not the case for everyone. Some people purchase from reputable providers because they are reputable (and that sometimes means having some standard - whether you call it quality... whether its based on morals etc).

    And another case in point is that some providers do not allow for example "adult/porn" websites even when their network allows it simply because they have taken some sort of stance against perhaps what they believe?... Explain that then as well...

    And on a totally different angle, some people prefer to not sell blood diamonds, they're 'providers' as well... explain that too...

    Customer buys, you deliver the paid-for service/product, that's it. I believe that providers should not involve themselves into the customer's business unless a ToS/Law violation has been brought up to their attention. If providers start applying their morals in front of business then you will get as result privacy issues, where draw the line right? lets not go there.

    Thanked by 1GM2015
  • probably if you can make good intense communication with your customer, i think your worries can be minimalized, actually there will be good if you have real contact about your customer like twitter or facebook or maybe phone cells number, or residential id , national id card or something kind like that which can be proof if they are real customer.
    You know i'd like be more interested with provider who doing like this.. know your customer and we know reputation of provider i rented.

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