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Changing PayPal attitude about chargeback?
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Changing PayPal attitude about chargeback?

charliecharlie Member, Host Rep

We received a chargeback (as usual from spammers, etc) issues in PayPal, and this was the first time when PayPal send an answer to us (i mean a real person answered!).

And this answer have a very interesting part:

I can understand that this is frustrating for you, and I want to inform you that VPS and other services is not protected by seller protection when there is opened an unauthorized transaction case, as this is very difficult to proof it is sent.

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Comments

  • IgniteServersIgniteServers Member
    edited October 2015

    If it was a server that was sold just provide them with the root password and login and keep the server online, then call them and ask the rep to look into it they should be able to close the case in your favor ASAP, paypal protects companies like us against virtual / intangible goods.

    Also you need to read the paypal policy and you will know that you are protected so you can correct the rep next time you talk to them.

    Edit: Did he purchase from you through secured checkout if so there is no way he can put it as unauthorized if you have the proper security in place on your secured checkout, requiring address and name and checking geographical location + IP address.

  • real spammers don't chargeback!

    P.S. PayPal are always fussy about virtual services, most disputes you can win but chargebacks i have no luck.

  • someone from paypal needs to join LET.

    Thanked by 1webcraft
  • no seller can win an unauthorized transaction dispute or chargeback

  • @century1stop said:
    no seller can win an unauthorized transaction dispute or chargeback

    That's where you are wrong buddy all you need is the signup IP and or original user information from their paypal in which you would get if your using a secured checkout that requires a shipping address.

    All paypal will do is simple look at the IP that the user is logging into their paypal account with and compare it to the IP which you send them from the users registration if it matched or is anywhere close you will win the case guaranteed or paypal will simple cover the case in both users favor.

  • @IgniteServers quite true but payment can be done from abroad, rather tricky if the case is based solely on IP

  • @IgniteServers Good luck, the last time I had a chargeback I sent them 7 pages of logs about the user including logins into the software and the associated IPs. They told me a day later that I didn't provide enough proof.

  • ratherbak3dratherbak3d Member
    edited October 2015

    We usually track down and refund spammers within the first few days. Would rather just refund and get them as far away as possible to be honest, we don't gamble with chargebacks.

  • @ratherbak3d that's right, I'd prefer to refund too and get it over with

  • @tr1cky said:
    IgniteServers Good luck, the last time I had a chargeback I sent them 7 pages of logs about the user including logins into the software and the associated IPs. They told me a day later that I didn't provide enough proof.

    Well I've had encounters where all I provided was the registration IP and the picture of the users account information and have won cases, I only believe I lost 1 unauthorized claim and that was before paypal updated its policy.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @IgniteServers Good luck. That used to be true. Best I've had with the new rules is they've refunded me AND the customer, taking the loss on themselves. I'm not confident that will keep happening.

    Thanked by 1IgniteServers
  • @Jar said:
    IgniteServers Good luck. That used to be true. Best I've had with the new rules is they've refunded me AND the customer, taking the loss on themselves. I'm not confident that will keep happening.

    True this has happen to me also. I know for sure with in tangible good the case can be won almost instantly for businesses selling virtual servers. As for unauthorized, the person is basically saying he did not make the transaction from his account at all. So if you think about it if paypal looks at his IP that he is logging in repetitiously with, and it matches the IP you give them from the registration on your business site and the name, what should that tell you? " the transaction is not unauthorized you just need to be sure you have your evidence".

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    3D Secure is the keyword here, if we talk about 'It wasn't me!' transactions.

  • I'm going to chargeback your mum.

    Thanked by 1GM2015
  • @Nekki said:
    I'm going to chargeback your mum.

    Oh you.

  • @ATHK said:
    Oh you.

    Imagine if you could chargeback prossies tho, it's the perfect crime.

    Thanked by 1ATHK
  • I haven't lost a case, with paypal your have to use correct wording " This is Virtual Goods, TOS (link) No refund for digital goods. Client Abuse network which is also against our TOS" etc

  • VirMachVirMach Member, Patron Provider
    edited October 2015

    The best way to win a chargeback is to make sure it doesn't happen. I can tell you that PayPal definitely is the most fair with unauthorized claim - if they see that it has no grounds you will usually win. It's the actual unauthorized claims that they can't do anything about. As for fraudulent chargebacks, meaning the customer owns the card, it was authorized, and they actually received the service but just want their money back: Visa and Mastercard will completely screw you over every time. American Express will actually look at your appeal and you might win. I guess that's why they have higher fees and less customers?

  • thought the new policy covers digital goods now?

  • @century1stop said:
    thought the new policy covers digital goods now?

    Nope, it doesn't, for sellers. It covers protection for buyers, not for sellers.

  • @tr1cky said:
    Nope, it doesn't, for sellers. It covers protection for buyers, not for sellers.
    that's right, so buyers can claim, isn't it?

  • WebProjectWebProject Host Rep, Veteran

    chargebacks case can be won, if you provide customer real signature, the PayPal will pass info and signature to credit card company and they do reverse the chargeback, but PayPal still charge £20/$20 for processing chargebacks case.

  • @century1stop said:
    thought the new policy covers digital goods now?

    It does for sellers also dude.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited October 2015

    @IgniteServers said:
    It does for sellers also dude.

    "Transactions without a shipping address aren't eligible for seller protection."

    Taken from an actual transaction page. There is no shipping address because you're not shipping them a physical item. So no, seller protection is not a thing for virtual goods anymore. See:

    image

    Ref: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protection

  • Jar said: "Transactions without a shipping address aren't eligible for seller protection."

    This only means you have to use secured checkout where the user provides the shipping address. Won multiple PayPal disputes that way already. CC chargeback is much harder and very unlikely to win though unless you either had a PCS (physical card transaction) or a signature (and/or video recording of customer).

    Can also be circumvented by sending access data only by snail mail, but that obviously takes forever.

    Thanked by 1jar
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited October 2015

    William said: This only means you have to use secured checkout where the user provides the shipping address

    I mean that would get around the message, but I'd still have to prove that I shipped something in an "item not received" dispute right?

  • Jar said: I mean that would get around the message, but I'd still have to prove that I shipped something in an "item not received" dispute right?

    So sell beer bottle caps with free VPS ;)

    Thanked by 2jar netomx
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @singsing said:
    So sell beer bottle caps with free VPS ;)

    Empty everclear bottles, I have enough of those!

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited October 2015

    Jar said: I mean that would get around the message, but I'd still have to prove that I shipped something in an "item not received" dispute right?

    Yea.... technically. As with any large corp, especially in financial, the PP ToS are very vague to give them some more options just in case.

    Depends on rep, really - I got around that sometimes by simply sending them log of the clients email server accepting the setup email, the content of the setup email as well as (if possible) output of "last" on the server to show the users login IP (which might match PayPal IP(s) or at least his range or ISP). Sometimes they did not want anything at all and just closed the dispute.

    It is also in general nice to get the shipping address from/via PP to verify it against the account data.

    Thanked by 1jar
  • singsingsingsing Member
    edited October 2015

    What will be interesting to see is how PayPal will react to competitive pressure from crypto currencies.

    Given that PayPal can be reversed so easily by scammers, why should a merchant even accept it if they can accept just Bitcoin instead?

    Or, a merchant can provide a "Bitcoin discount" -- i.e., essentially a premium assessed to against buyers using PayPal to cover the additional risk to the merchant.

    To compete, PayPal (and CC companies) might have to start reviewing claims more seriously and with lower fees ...

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