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Iniz - Closed account because user filed PayPal dispute - Page 2
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Iniz - Closed account because user filed PayPal dispute

245

Comments

  • protos78protos78 Member
    edited June 2015

    Jar said: Now, you like using illustrations, so here's one. You mail a $5 bill to Microsoft and see if you get it back. If you don't, you should seek legal action.

    Correct illustration is this: I rented a software and agreed that I will pay monthly. I decided to cancel it. Even though I cancelled it, I got charged to my credit card. I called the credit card company, they will return the extra money paid. If microsoft did a similar thing, they will get tons of lawsuits.

    If the paypal is the party that are responsible for the problem, I have no idea why this will hurt the provider. They could just say "the customer forgot to cancel the recurring payment. " I see no problem with this.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited June 2015

    protos78 said: Correct illustration is this

    Nope, not correct because this:

    protos78 said: I got charged to my credit card

    Equivalent would be you wrote a check to them and mailed it to them. Only, in this instance, you told a company to cut the check for you every month and never told them to stop. This isn't an opinion part, this is the literal event. You literally told PayPal to send them money, you did not ask Iniz to take the money. When someone charges your credit card, it is because you asked them to take the money. Very different, and you need to understand the difference.

    It is very important that you understand how your PayPal account operates.

  • protos78protos78 Member
    edited June 2015

    Jar said: Equivalent would be you wrote a check to them and mailed it to them. Only, in this instance, you told a company to cut the check for you every month and never told them to stop. This isn't an opinion part, this is the literal event. You literally told PayPal to send them money, you did not ask Iniz to take the money. When someone charges your credit card, it is because you asked them to take the money. Very different, and you need to understand the difference.

    >

    If the issue is like this, they could have just said: the customer forgot to cancel the recurring payment. Paypal will do no harm to them as it is not provider's problem. The dispute will resolve quickly. They will refund the money, everybody will be happy. There is no point in closing the account. It is unprofessional. I am not asking to do any harm to the provider. If they want to keep the money, I will do my best to harm them. Otherwise, I have no problem with them.

  • protos78protos78 Member
    edited June 2015

    This is what I got from paypal website:
    Subscriptions and Recurring Payments is a low-cost way for you to accept credit card and bank account payments for content site subscriptions, newsletter fees, club dues, or recurring donations, and can be fully integrated with your website in a few easy steps.

    This means that I agreed for a service in exchange for money. If I don't get the service, I am entitled to ask for money back. Period. **This has nothing to do with mailing checks to company. ** If recurring payments are offered, it means that provider agreed to provide the mentioned service whether it is subscription, newsletter fees or VPS. Pay attention to paypal's explanation "a low-cost way for you to ACCEPT credit card and bank account payments". It is not like somebody is mailing them cash. Providers accept it in exchange for somethingelse.

    If hosting service is not covered by recurring payments, providers should not offer it at all.

  • XiNiXXiNiX Member, Host Rep

    @elgs said:
    You should talk to the provider before raising the dispute at PayPal. What you did effectively made your provider's PayPal account less trusted.

    This Sums up Nicely.

    Thanked by 1elgs
  • belinikbelinik Member
    edited June 2015

    protos78 said: This means that I agreed for a service in exchange for money. If I don't get the service, I am entitled to ask for money back. Period.

    well did you ask them for the money back?

    let's put it this way, winning a chargeback means it cost the provider 20 dollars. I think that is a good enough reason for the vps company to place their action...

    if you send them the 20 dollar they lost they may be able to get your account back....

  • zedzed Member

    Just never set up subscriptions with low end providers man, lesson learned.

    Even if you'd contacted the VPS provider, there's a fair chance they'd have used the same bullshit arguments you're seeing here (well you should have cancelled your subscription finders keepers we got your 3 bucks h0h0) and you'd still end up having to dispute it via paypal.

    It's just mindboggling that providers are worried about the paypal chargeback costing them 20 bucks, but there's no system in place to make sure it doesn't happen.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited June 2015

    zed said: costing them 20 bucks

    $20 here, $20 there. You know what website this is right? If you want providers with large cash stores, you're shopping in the wrong place. Sure they should have some money lying around for an emergency, but not enough to hire someone to manually review all PayPal transactions or enough to be your personal bank.

  • 4n0nx4n0nx Member

    Jar said: I would do this at MXroute, and then report it on FraudRecord (as noted in my policy

    Great. Creating a fraudrecord entry for something that's not fraud. Just great.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @4n0nx said:
    Great. Creating a fraudrecord entry for something that's not fraud. Just great.

    Shouldn't be a problem. I've never denied a refund request. If you try to hurt me, I warn other providers.

    Thanked by 1Peroni
  • protos78protos78 Member
    edited June 2015

    belinik said: well did you ask them for the money back?

    >

    A good provider will not try to keep its customers money for the services it doesn't provide. My way of asking money back is through paypal dispute. If I were someone working for INIZ, I would immediately send an email to the customer and ask to cancel the dispute and agree to pay the money back. It is that much simple. Closing the account for a dispute is the worst thing that could be done on their part. I am not evil; if I am told nicely to cancel the dispute, I would have done it. If somebody takes my money for the services that are not provided, I will report it to the authorities. They will take care of the issue. No provider has the right to charge customer if the service is cancelled. I don't care how the recurring payment thing is working. The only thing I care is this: I should not pay for the services I cancelled. I am not sending them the money as some of the providers claimed here. I agreed to send them money as long as the service is provided. If I decide to cancel the agreement, I no longer have to pay. I have mobile phone bill on recurring payment. If I cancel the service, they can't charge. This is it. Same thing applies to hosting service. Once I cancel the service, they can't keep accepting money from me.

    I will gain nothing by opening a dispute or paypal charging $20 to the provider. I am willing to resolve the issue. I am the one that is charged. I am the one whose other vps is cancelled as I filed a dispute. Remember, I have two VPS. The other one closed with no reason. Put yourself in the shoes of paypal account representative that will decide on what to do. Here are the facts:

    1. Customer didn't get the service, but money is still in merchants account.
    2. Seller didn't agree to return the money even though service is not provided. There is no bill.
    3. Customer realized that there is a recurring payment, and immediately cancelled it.
    4. Seller terminated another VPS with no solid reason as buyer opened a dispute.

    I could even file another dispute request for the VPS that they terminated. That one was fully paid for a year. Right now, they are not proving a service for which it is fully paid.

    They could solve the issue quickly. It is their choice now. If I get my other VPS back, and money, I will cancel the dispute. Otherwise, I will open another dispute for the VPS they closed. In the meantime, I might even call the credit card company to cancel all transactions.

    Look at how corrupted some providers are !!! This is not for INIZ. They ask INIZ people to put me in fraudrecord. So far, I have paid hundred of VPS bills. Even now, I have more than 20 VPSs. I am going to be in fraudrecord because I asked my money back for the services that are not provided. I am speechless...

    Thanked by 14n0nx
  • lbftlbft Member
    edited June 2015

    protos78 said: I am not trying to punish them. If I want to do it, I would have started the dispute through credit card company.

    What. A PayPal dispute is just as serious as a credit card chargeback.

    You directly threatened their ability to accept payment from their customers - too many issues and PayPal will tell the merchant to fuck off, and this is already a high-risk industry since so many people are out to defraud hosting companies. And good luck selling to maybe half your customers if you don't accept PayPal...

    By your own admission, you did that without even contacting them about it.

    What the fuck did you expect to happen?

    Thanked by 1MartinD
  • 4n0nx4n0nx Member

    Mahfuz_SS_EHL said: I would like to request @Patrick to Make a FraudRecord of this customer so that we can also be aware of him

    Where did he commit fraud? Maybe customers should be aware of everyone who uses fraudrecord.

  • belinikbelinik Member
    edited June 2015

    protos78 said: A good provider will not try to keep its customers money for the services it doesn't provide. My way of asking money back is through paypal dispute.

    protos78 said: I will gain nothing by opening a dispute or paypal charging $20 to the provider. I am willing to resolve the issue. I am the one that is charged. I am the one whose other vps is cancelled as I filed a dispute.

    if you were willing to do it 'correctly' a ticket will solve all your problem, but no you went your way to paypal and even with majority of people telling you got it wrong you still try and twist it your way... Nature of internet forums. Given how much iniz has changed since sold I'd imagine them either miss this topic since nothing is on their ticket system, and you won't get your data back. They lose you as your customer, you may/may not win chargeback and waste more time on calling another place to do another charge back. You will most likely end up in fraudrecord due to your actions and question yourself why your future purchase is getting blocked/rejected.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited June 2015

    protos78 said: if I am told nicely to cancel the dispute, I would have done it.

    So, compromising here, now that you understand that opening a dispute can be damaging to the business and that it is not intended to be used for a simple refund request, would you next time take the same amount of time that took and instead contact the provider first?

    I mean, if you honestly didn't know it could hurt them, then alright you learned something new. If you stand by it, now knowing this, and knowing that there are certain considerations that you should keep in mind when dealing with hosts that rely heavily on automation to reduce their prices for you, then I would say this is not true:

    protos78 said: I am not evil

    If next time you would open that ticket or write that e-mail first, then no you are not evil.

    Thanked by 1belinik
  • elgselgs Member
    edited June 2015

    @protos78 said:
    I am not trying to punish them. If I want to do it, I would have started the dispute through credit card company. I want to get the issue resolved. That is the reason I opened a dispute. For other internet merchants, I opened a dispute, get it resolved. I didn't know that paypal will do a harm to the provider. If I am told to cancel the dispute and ensured that I will get refunded rather than getting my account closed, I will definitely do it.

    You indeed punished them by opening a dispute at PayPal. If you have a PayPal business account, you know there is a reputation for each merchant based on that PayPal decides how much they trust the merchants. PayPal will freeze the untrusted merchants' money for a long period of time. So I believe no merchant wants to have a bad reputation with PayPal.

  • protos78protos78 Member
    edited June 2015

    elgs said: You indeed punished them by opening a dispute at PayPal. If you have a PayPal business account, you know there is a reputation for each merchant based on that PayPal decides how much they trust the merchants. PayPal will freeze the untrusted merchants' money for a long period. So I believe no merchant wants to have a bad reputation with PayPal.

    >

    I didn't know this. If I knew, I would contact them first. Even now, I can close the dispute if they refund and keep the other vps open. Closing the account is the worst thing that could be done.

    Jar said: If next time you would open that ticket or write that e-mail first, then no you are not evil.

    >

    They should have returned the money before I filed dispute. You should not accept payments for the services not provided.

    Thanked by 14n0nx
  • mikhomikho Member, Host Rep

    @protos78 said:
    A good provider will not try to keep its customers money for the services it doesn't provide.

    Did you know that most providers add sent money that don't match an invoice as credit for future invoices?

    If Iniz do the same you could have used that money to pay parts of your annual bill when that was due.

    Thanked by 1ATHK
  • protos78protos78 Member
    edited June 2015

    lbft said: What the fuck did you expect to happen?

    >

    They will contact me to close the dispute and refund the money. Then, I will close the dispute. In the first place, they should have asked me to refund before I realized that they are still charging recurring payments.

    I am not trying to put them into bad position. After all, I have account with them for a while. They should send me an email before closing the account and terminating all services. I have an account with them for more than a year. This is not the way to treat a customer.

  • BruceBruce Member

    seems there's 2 issues here

    1) hosting companies persist with pushing subscriptions on customers
    2) customers think the hosting companies are charging them

    paypal is the culprit here, mostly. could be helped by WHMCS behaving better too. not the last time we see a thread like this.

    Thanked by 14n0nx
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited June 2015

    protos78 said: They should have returned the money before I filed dispute. You should not accept payments for the services not provided.

    Then you've learned nothing. Low end providers cannot manually review all PayPal transactions. It is not a reasonable request. Nor can they financially justify hiring a developer to make this software that does not exist purely to retain you as a customer.

    So you don't want to pay low prices. I expect you will not be purchasing from anyone else on LEB/LET.

    Too bad, I almost thought you got it. I tried.

  • 4n0nx4n0nx Member
    edited June 2015

    protos78 said: They should have returned the money before I filed dispute. You should not accept payments for the services not provided.

    That seems to be a well known problem with Paypal auto payments. I only knew about it because the provider I used it with first explicitly mentioned it during the order process. If Iniz had done that, the mess could have been avoided. Or did they?

  • mikhomikho Member, Host Rep

    @protos78 said:
    They will contact me to close the dispute and refund the money. Then, I will close the dispute.

    If you can't take 5 minutes to open a ticket to billing and resolve the situation, why would they do it?

    Thanked by 1jar
  • elgs said: PayPal will freeze the untrusted merchants' money for a long period.

    I have no reason to doubt that you are telling the truth, but Holy Mackerel, that is absolutely mind boggling to me. That is a world of evil that not everyone knows. For a payment processing company to exhibit that kind of behaviour is disgusting. Decent people shouldn't need to become part of that.

    Thanked by 14n0nx
  • protos78protos78 Member
    edited June 2015

    Jar said: Then you've learned nothing. Low end providers cannot manually review all PayPal transactions. It is not a reasonable request. Nor can they financially justify hiring a developer to make this software that does not exist purely to retain you as a customer.

    So you don't want to pay low prices. I expect to never see you review another host here.

    Too bad, I almost thought you got it.

    You still don't get it. I don't expect them to look at each transaction one by one. If a customer files a dispute for a transcation, you can't and should not automate this process especially for a customer that has an account with you for a year. You should look into the transaction to determine what to do. They don't have tons of paypal disputes.

    Nobody is asking you to become low end provider. It is your choice. The fact that you are low end provider doesn't mean, you have the right to do whatever you want. You have to keep customers happy. Even now, this issue could be resolved with one email. But if you keep this attitude, no customer will do business with you.

    I understand that they have automated systems in place to close the account and this is wrong in my case.

  • mikho said: If you can't take 5 minutes to open a ticket to billing and resolve the situation, why would they do it?

    >

    Because I am customer. It is their job to charge for the services they provide. They can't accept payments for the services cancelled by customer. If paypal and provider has some integration problems, it is not my problem. If the provider doesn't want to deal with paypal issues, they should not have paypal as payment processor. It is their choice to go with paypal and I have the right to dispute any transaction I want.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited June 2015

    protos78 said: It is their choice to go with paypal and I have the right to dispute any transaction I want.

    Yep, and you have the right to stand so high up there on that soapbox that you never do business with anyone on LEB/LET again, because you're describing the universal standard and you stand out as the one person incapable of dealing with it in a reasonable manner. You're alone in this, and your <$7 does not fund the universal shift of the standards in this marketplace.

    protos78 said: But if you keep this attitude, no customer will do business with you.

    Other way around actually. You're not willing to meet providers where they have to be at to offer you inexpensive services while everyone else is happy to, so it will be those providers who will not do business with you.

  • 4n0nx4n0nx Member

    protos78 said: You still don't get it. I don't expect them to look at each transaction one by one. If a customer files a dispute for a transcation, you can't and should not automate this process. You should look into the transaction to determine what to do. They don't have tons of paypal disputes.

    Yes, but still what happened to you was an expected outcome for those who know. It's a Paypal problem and everyone handles Paypal subscriptions like that (= you keep paying for no service).

    Regardless of who is right (I blame Paypal the most and Iniz the second most), your only option is to contact them now.

  • mikhomikho Member, Host Rep

    @protos78 said:
    Because I am customer. It is their job to charge for the services they provide. They can't accept payments for the services cancelled by customer.

    Well, the money you willingly sent (since there was no invoice, you gave it to them as a gift) probably ended up as account credit for future payments.
    So it is still your duty to ask for the money back if you don't want them as account credit. This is done by asking/talking to the provider, not opening a dispute with paypal.

    Thanked by 1ATHK
  • 4n0nx4n0nx Member

    protos78 said: It is their choice to go with paypal and I have the right to dispute any transaction I want.

    Yes. So contact them to resolve it and if they are stubborn like you just dispute everything then go on with your life.

This discussion has been closed.