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INCERO - Holding hardware hostage & some extras
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INCERO - Holding hardware hostage & some extras

Hello,

I have a review about colocation services with a company called INCERO (https://www.incero.com) for you today.

WARNING: Before you start reading, get some popcorn ready. If any mod or administrator would like to see proof, I have a copy of all invoices, tickets and Skype communication with INCERO.

Background/Preface
In September I decided to buy some servers and collocate them instead of renting dedicated servers. It thought that this would provide me more flexibility (network setup etc.) and that it'd be cheaper. I compared some providers and finally it came down to buying a full rack with either Psychz / @PhotonVPS or INCERO in Dallas. I chose INCERO, because they were cheaper. I did see some bad reviews, but after talking to their CEO Gordon Page (he also likes to refer to himself as Gordon P.) on Skype I decided to go with them anyway. I really, really regret that I didn't go with Psychz now. I eventually placed the order via e-mail with INCERO. I precisely ordered this promo: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1592775

The story
I initially ordered a half-rack, but then Gordon/INCERO informed me that I would have to buy my own PDU (costs $600 and it's extra hassle in case it fails), which in itself wouldn't be an issue, but given their inflexibility it had to be a specific model from APC, it had to be new and from a "reputable seller" (such Amazon or Newegg according to them). I wasn't informed about this PDU requirement before placing the order and nothing was stated in the offer either, but I could understand it due to the power metering. I had to upgrade to a full rack to avoid having to buy my own PDU (they supply rental PDUs in that case).

I then bought some hardware and had it shipped to their DC. It was quickly racked and they gave me lots of advice on multiple things. @ryanarp also went above and beyond to get our switch configured (despite them not supporting my switch brand) and when we had issues with a hard drive.

After 3 months I decided to cancel my service with them, because I realized that I was wrong about colocation. The added stress and hassle wasn't for me. With remote hands, power fees and the added complexity colocation ended up being more expensive than just using dedicated servers or even AWS.

The interesting part
I opened a ticket giving them notice that I was going to cancel my service. I then sold the servers to an acquaintance. I was then notified by INCERO that I colocation packages had a minimum term of 6 months and that I therefore couldn't cancel yet (unless I paid the remainder of the term) according to their TOS. That is totally fine, however I never agreed to their TOS and they weren't able to produce any evidence of me accepting them despite me asking several times. I'm not sure about US laws (I guess that'd be regulated in the UCC), but in Switzerland (where I'm from) and several other European countries if there's no consent to TOS standard/predefined legal provisions apply. I decided that this wasn't worth fighting and decided to keep the rack and perhaps put some really cheap servers from eBay in it to test stuff or so. I asked INCERO to ship out the servers and they informed me that they couldn't do so until my cancellation ticket was resolved. I responded to the ticket informing them about my decision to keep the rack and they packed my servers (that was during the weekend). Today (Monday) I provided them with a shipping label and then I get an invoice for the remaining 3 months on my term. Of course I protested, because:
a) I never accepted the TOS
b) I stated that I was going to keep the rack, but I didn't state that I was going to pay 3 months in advance

Gordon then refused to ship the servers unless I pay the invoice (which I was almost ready to do), but then I see that I'd have to pay by wire transfer or (no clue what ACH is). That is almost impossible, because my bank (didn't look around for too long in the ebanking interface though) won't even let me transfer money without an IBAN (which INCERO wasn't able to provide, despite me asking). I decided that I wasn't going to pay INCERO any dime at that moment. I also opened a claim for every single PayPal payment to them and I'll have my bank file a chargeback for every transaction to them (paid for some stuff with my credit card) tomorrow. INCERO still refuses to ship out my servers (which are my property) despite me asking several times (I was even willing to make a compromise or find another solution).

Conclusion
I regret being cheap and choosing INCERO over Psychz (which appear to be more professional and their TOS and website don't look like they were written by a 5-year-old either). I learned my lesson with this and I'll never buy something from INCERO (or any company not listing a physical office address on their website) again and in the future I'll collocate with a datacenter closer to me and in the meantime I'll use AWS. I would also like to make clear that in some cases INCERO can/should be used, as their offers are great, but not for production stuff.

If you have any questions, let me know. Sorry for any typos, I'm tired (in part because of INCERO).

Regards,
Alec

«1345

Comments

  • Well if you join you accept automatically their tos. You have to pay 3 more months to get your hardware back. Dont get me wrong but ToS regulates a company so must be respected.

    Good luck anyway

  • @WHT said:
    Well if you join you accept automatically their tos. You have to pay 3 more months to get your hardware back. Dont get me wrong but ToS regulates a company so must be respected.

    Good luck anyway

    Purely from a legal standpoint this isn't the case (at least where I come from). Even if I had accepted their TOS, they don't give them the right to hold hardware hostage (https://incero.com/terms-of-service).
    Also note that I was willing to stay (even longer than the 3 months), but I don't wanna pay everything at once. In the future I'll just make sure to exclusively work with companies that operate in countries that have decent consumer protection laws.

    Thanked by 1Waldo19
  • HassanHassan Member, Patron Provider

  • First sentence in the ToS:

    By using Incero LLCs (Incero, our, us or we) products and services, you (you, your or Customer) agree to comply with our policies.

  • @WHT said:
    Well if you join you accept automatically their tos. You have to pay 3 more months to get your hardware back. Dont get me wrong but ToS regulates a company so must be respected.

    Good luck anyway

    If he didn't agree to it he didn't agree to it. This is something INCERO sales should've stated when he purchased. Though charging back everything is a bit far.

  • You maybe banned here for writing anything bad about incero. Post on other sites too.

    Also don't charge back and dispute yet otherwise it will be reason for gordon to get your hardware

  • @iRepko said:

    @WHT said:
    Well if you join you accept automatically their tos. You have to pay 3 more months to get your hardware back. Dont get me wrong but ToS regulates a company so must be respected.

    Good luck anyway

    If he didn't agree to it he didn't agree to it. This is something INCERO sales should've stated when he purchased. Though charging back everything is a bit far.

    Even if that legally holds up, it isn't something I consider a good business practice. I'm not going to chargeback power or remote hand bills and to be honest I still hope that we can find some compromise.

  • @Layer said:
    You maybe banned here for writing anything bad about incero. Post on other sites too.

    Also don't charge back and dispute yet otherwise it will be reason for gordon to get your hardware

    I already posted on WHT: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1617495
    I don't see why I'd be banned for saying the truth, especially if I can prove it.

    Thanked by 1VortexMagnus
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    ascendrix said: I also opened a claim for every single PayPal payment to them and I'll have my bank file a chargeback for every transaction to them (paid for some stuff with my credit card) tomorrow.

    This is why you don't have a leg to stand on, and why no one should do business with you.

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    I see a lot of mistakes on both sides of this issue. It really sucks but at this point you basically dug yourself into a hole once you filed the disputes and chargebacks. I guess you can take them to court but that sounds more expensive than the 3 months would have cost you. At this point I would advise you to either work with your bank to get the money wired to them somehow for the 6 months of service or write the servers off as a loss. You had a leg to stand on up until you filed the disputes and chargebacks for the service they actually provided you and you utilized. Unfortunately now you're defrauding them (and forcing their business to lose money) which is much worse than what they did to you.

    If you can cancel the disputes and chargebacks now I would do it and hope and pray they are willing to work with you still, otherwise you're stuck with getting a lawyer involved.

  • @ascendrix @ryanrp and @jarland are old friends.

    Gordon easily can ask @ryanrp to do everything to ban you here otherwise he will be fired (in theory)

    Also @jarlands mxroute collocated at incero too

    Gordon doesn't care he can kick anyone based on his mood.

  • @jarland said:

    ascendrix said: I also opened a claim for every single PayPal payment to them and I'll have my bank file a chargeback for every transaction to them (paid for some stuff with my credit card) tomorrow.

    This is why you don't have a leg to stand on, and why no one should do business with you.

    I never opened a PayPal claim/dispute in my entire life before. The claim is not a chargeback nor a dispute of the transaction, it's a complaint about the service provided. I am willing to work out a compromise and to take back the claims.

  • RIYADRIYAD Member, Patron Provider
    edited December 2016

    I would also suggest not to charging back yet .I guess your hardware costs more then 3months colocation cost . Maybe the issue will be solved once they see your posts around the internet .

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    Layer said: Gordon easily can ask @ryanrp to do everything to ban you here otherwise he will be fired (in theory)

    No offense, but you're a complete idiot if you think that.

  • @KuJoe said:
    I see a lot of mistakes on both sides of this issue. It really sucks but at this point you basically dug yourself into a hole once you filed the disputes and chargebacks. I guess you can take them to court but that sounds more expensive than the 3 months would have cost you. At this point I would advise you to either work with your bank to get the money wired to them somehow for the 6 months of service or write the servers off as a loss. You had a leg to stand on up until you filed the disputes and chargebacks for the service they actually provided you and you utilized. Unfortunately now you're defrauding them (and forcing their business to lose money) which is much worse than what they did to you.

    If you can cancel the disputes and chargebacks now I would do it and hope and pray they are willing to work with you still, otherwise you're stuck with getting a lawyer involved.

    I didn't dispute the transaction itself (ie. lie to PayPal and claim that the transaction is unauthorized), as that would be doing the same shady stuff they're doing.

  • ascendrixascendrix Member
    edited December 2016

    @jarland said:

    Layer said: Gordon easily can ask @ryanrp to do everything to ban you here otherwise he will be fired (in theory)

    No offense, but you're a complete idiot if you think that.

    I think even in Texas there are laws to protect workers, maybe not as strong as in some left-leaning EU countries (looking at you France), but still.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    ascendrix said: I think even in Texas there are laws to protect workers, maybe not as strong as in some left-leaning EU countries (looking at you France), but still.

    It has nothing to do with laws. It's about integrity. There is no basis for such an accusation against me.

  • HarambeHarambe Member, Host Rep

    @ascendrix said:

    I didn't dispute the transaction itself (ie. lie to PayPal and claim that the transaction is unauthorized), as that would be doing the same shady stuff they're doing.

    Well you said you're calling your bank to charge back. If you didn't do that you'd be in a spot where the burden of proof is on Incero to prove that you agreed to a 6 month contract.

    But now it just looks like you're defrauding them for 3 months of service which I'm guessing is at least a couple grand... and if you do that, then they can (grey area, but generally allowed in colo) hold onto your hardware until all bills are paid, including unrack & pack fees.

  • @Harambe said:

    @ascendrix said:

    I didn't dispute the transaction itself (ie. lie to PayPal and claim that the transaction is unauthorized), as that would be doing the same shady stuff they're doing.

    Well you said you're calling your bank to charge back. If you didn't do that you'd be in a spot where the burden of proof is on Incero to prove that you agreed to a 6 month contract.

    But now it just looks like you're defrauding them for 3 months of service which I'm guessing is at least a couple grand... and if you do that, then they can (grey area, but generally allowed in colo) hold onto your hardware until all bills are paid, including unrack & pack fees.

    As stated before I didn't file for a chargeback, I filed a dispute/claim, because I'm unhappy with the service provided (even chose that option on the form). I mainly did that, so in the worst case I'll have PayPal buyer protection (no clue if that's worth something).

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    @ascendrix said:

    @KuJoe said:
    I see a lot of mistakes on both sides of this issue. It really sucks but at this point you basically dug yourself into a hole once you filed the disputes and chargebacks. I guess you can take them to court but that sounds more expensive than the 3 months would have cost you. At this point I would advise you to either work with your bank to get the money wired to them somehow for the 6 months of service or write the servers off as a loss. You had a leg to stand on up until you filed the disputes and chargebacks for the service they actually provided you and you utilized. Unfortunately now you're defrauding them (and forcing their business to lose money) which is much worse than what they did to you.

    If you can cancel the disputes and chargebacks now I would do it and hope and pray they are willing to work with you still, otherwise you're stuck with getting a lawyer involved.

    I didn't dispute the transaction itself (ie. lie to PayPal and claim that the transaction is unauthorized), as that would be doing the same shady stuff they're doing.

    Sorry, I misunderstood. I only know of one type of PayPal dispute and bank/credit card chargeback and they should never be used as "revenge" and only when the service/product is not provided which you claim it was up until they unracked your services. If you haven't filed a PayPal dispute or filed a chargeback with your bank/credit card company yet then don't or it will cease all communications with Incero and lessen the likelihood of getting this resolved in your favor.

    If no disputes/chargebacks have been filed then the easiest solution for you is to continue as you planned before, order the cheap servers on eBay and have them shipped to Incero. Once they are racked and online you should be able to have your other servers shipped out since they are essentially keeping the hardware as collateral to ensure you don't skip out on the bill. As long as you have hardware racked there they should be willing to let you continue using their service for 3 more months before you cancel.

  • miamiconsultantmiamiconsultant Member, Patron Provider

    Check with your provider if they offer refunds, don't lock you in and allow you to talk about their service in public without having all your stuff cancelled.

    There are providers out there that don't do these types of things.

  • trewqtrewq Administrator, Patron Provider

    @ascendrix said:

    @Harambe said:

    @ascendrix said:

    I didn't dispute the transaction itself (ie. lie to PayPal and claim that the transaction is unauthorized), as that would be doing the same shady stuff they're doing.

    Well you said you're calling your bank to charge back. If you didn't do that you'd be in a spot where the burden of proof is on Incero to prove that you agreed to a 6 month contract.

    But now it just looks like you're defrauding them for 3 months of service which I'm guessing is at least a couple grand... and if you do that, then they can (grey area, but generally allowed in colo) hold onto your hardware until all bills are paid, including unrack & pack fees.


    As stated before I didn't file for a chargeback, I filed a dispute/claim, because I'm unhappy with the service provided (even chose that option on the form). I mainly did that, so in the worst case I'll have PayPal buyer protection (no clue if that's worth something).

    You've started a charge back in the sense that you've told PayPal you want your money back and why, this is exactly the same as a charge back.

    Why would you need buyer protection against a payment for services where there services were provided in full?

    Thanked by 1BrianHarrison
  • @KuJoe said:

    @ascendrix said:

    @KuJoe said:
    I see a lot of mistakes on both sides of this issue. It really sucks but at this point you basically dug yourself into a hole once you filed the disputes and chargebacks. I guess you can take them to court but that sounds more expensive than the 3 months would have cost you. At this point I would advise you to either work with your bank to get the money wired to them somehow for the 6 months of service or write the servers off as a loss. You had a leg to stand on up until you filed the disputes and chargebacks for the service they actually provided you and you utilized. Unfortunately now you're defrauding them (and forcing their business to lose money) which is much worse than what they did to you.

    If you can cancel the disputes and chargebacks now I would do it and hope and pray they are willing to work with you still, otherwise you're stuck with getting a lawyer involved.

    I didn't dispute the transaction itself (ie. lie to PayPal and claim that the transaction is unauthorized), as that would be doing the same shady stuff they're doing.

    Sorry, I misunderstood. I only know of one type of PayPal dispute and bank/credit card chargeback and they should never be used as "revenge" and only when the service/product is not provided which you claim it was up until they unracked your services. If you haven't filed a PayPal dispute or filed a chargeback with your bank/credit card company yet then don't or it will cease all communications with Incero and lessen the likelihood of getting this resolved in your favor.

    If no disputes/chargebacks have been filed then the easiest solution for you is to continue as you planned before, order the cheap servers on eBay and have them shipped to Incero. Once they are racked and online you should be able to have your other servers shipped out since they are essentially keeping the hardware as collateral to ensure you don't skip out on the bill. As long as you have hardware racked there they should be willing to let you continue using their service for 3 more months before you cancel.

    1. To confirm again, I filed a dispute/complaint and INCERO will even be able to respond to it. I can provide screenshots to prove this if required.
    2. To be honest, I don't wanna do any kind of business with INCERO ever again or any other venture affiliated with Gordon Page.
  • PieHasBeenEatenPieHasBeenEaten Member, Host Rep

    @layer you are just an idiot with your dumbass conspiracy theories. Op if you paided them you agree to their TOS. But to say it was a 6 month term min. They should of had you sign a contract. If they didn't then the terms were monthly and they can't hold your hardware or you owe them any money. Their case will not hold up in any court with out a signed contract.

  • ascendrixascendrix Member
    edited December 2016

    @PieNotEvenEaten said:
    @layer you are just an idiot with your dumbass conspiracy theories. Op if you paided them you agree to their TOS. But to say it was a 6 month term min. They should of had you sign a contract. If they didn't then the terms were monthly and they can't hold your hardware or you owe them any money. Their case will not hold up in any court with out a signed contract.

    A signed contract wouldn't be necessary, but some kind of proof that I agree to their TOS (ie. a log of a checked box on some form). This would technically be a contract.

  • HarambeHarambe Member, Host Rep

    @ascendrix said:

    As stated before I didn't file for a chargeback, I filed a dispute/claim, because I'm unhappy with the service provided (even chose that option on the form). I mainly did that, so in the worst case I'll have PayPal buyer protection (no clue if that's worth something).

    Ah ok, as @KuJoe said, the only type of Paypal claim I know is the nasty "I'm trying to take all my money back" one. I'd cancel it anyways, Paypal or your bank won't resolve this.

    If someone's unlawfully holding gear hostage.. you don't create a bunch of chargebacks and essentially defraud them for existing services. You call your provider and let them know you're calling the local (I guess Dallas/Ft Worth) police department and filing a report about the stolen equipment.

  • ascendrixascendrix Member
    edited December 2016

    @Harambe said:

    @ascendrix said:

    As stated before I didn't file for a chargeback, I filed a dispute/claim, because I'm unhappy with the service provided (even chose that option on the form). I mainly did that, so in the worst case I'll have PayPal buyer protection (no clue if that's worth something).

    Ah ok, as @KuJoe said, the only type of Paypal claim I know is the nasty "I'm trying to take all my money back" one. I'd cancel it anyways, Paypal or your bank won't resolve this.

    If someone's unlawfully holding gear hostage.. you don't create a bunch of chargebacks and essentially defraud them for existing services. You call your provider and let them know you're calling the local (I guess Dallas/Ft Worth) police department and filing a report about the stolen equipment.

    What I've filed is a complaint and I can provide screenshots. Once again: I do not expect any refund for services that have already been provided/rendered. Sorry for being unclear about that. I would like to note that this is the first time I ever filed such a complaint, I never had to before.

  • "I'll also make sure to know that the world knows what a lying bastard you are and about your shady business practices."

    This was my favourite part.

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    @ascendrix said:

    1. To confirm again, I filed a dispute/complaint and INCERO will even be able to respond to it. I can provide screenshots to prove this if required.
    2. To be honest, I don't wanna do any kind of business with INCERO ever again or any other venture affiliated with Gordon Page.

    In that case I'd just walk away unless you can find a lawyer to fight for you but hiring a lawyer in another country might be difficult and expensive. Incero will hold your hardware while you have an outstanding balance with them and there is no telling what kind of "fees" they might want to attach onto your bill now (I've heard of some data centers that will charge you "handling" fees of upwards of $250 to box up each server and another $200 in "materials" if the customer is a problem client).

  • @tr1cky said:
    "I'll also make sure to know that the world knows what a lying bastard you are and about your shady business practices."

    This was my favourite part.

    I'm sorry for that and took it back. No matter how much I disagree with someone that's no excuse to talk like that: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1617495&p=9812220#post9812220

This discussion has been closed.