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1U Switzerland Colocation?
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1U Switzerland Colocation?

LunarLunar Member
edited November 2016 in Requests

Does anyone know of some more "lowend" 1U colocations in Switzerland? Basically looking for the cheapest I can get. I'm not really sure what the prices are like there so I can't really give a good budget. Monthly billing would be a requirement though.

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Comments

  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited November 2016

    1 - Are you in CH or EU? Importing hardware from outside EU to Switzerland without speaking German or French is a nightmare.

    2- Are you aware that you as non Swiss citizen (as well as all your users) WILL be monitored + traffic dumped by the Swiss government and have zero legal recourse against this?

    3- Do you have big budget? Because realistically CH costs you 50% premium to DE/AT on colo and 25-50% on BW. Less than 100CHF per U with minimal power and BW is not realistic.

  • zeitgeistzeitgeist Member
    edited November 2016

    Here a sample to give you an idea...

    Location: Josefstrasse 225, 8005 Zürich (Equinix)

    https://www.metanet.ch/rechenzentrum/server-housing/bestellen?step=config

    1U = CHF 65 (each server hardware is CHF 65) + CHF 31 (for 1U) = CHF 96

    Plus CHF 99 setup.

    1GB/s "unlimited" included (limitations see 5.3 in general terms)

    Minimum payment cycle is 6 months.

  • I would not use Metanet; the network is not really good - just like Nine and Softplus/Sinavps.

    M247 has nice but is a UK/RO company just operating in CH.

  • @William, that's interesting. I am not sure about their colo services if they use a different routing for that service, but I used to have a dedicated server with them for several years, and their network quality seemed superior to Nine.ch. Whereas a lot of traffic went through Level 3 with Metanet, Nine likes to go through HE a lot.

  • zeitgeist said: but I used to have a dedicated server with them for several years, and their network quality seemed superior to Nine.ch.

    It's a rather simple calculation; the offer with BW is not realistic (even HE charges you 75c/Mbit in ZRH) so atone point you get congested. Route wise most are by now HE/Cogent/Init7 + SwissIX anyway.

    Will in fact get SwissIX port as well, the cost is a joke...

  • Absolutely agree on the BW price not being sustainable. My guess is that they are simply not that well-known yet, except for few Swiss subscribers, and they tend to be less demanding in bandwidth. If they had more heavy users, they probably quickly abandon their unlimited 1GB/s offer. What I can say though is that from the time I had a server with them (several years ago) until last year when I no longer needed it, I always had the 1GB/s available to me.

  • zeitgeist said: If they had more heavy users, they probably quickly abandon their unlimited 1GB/s offer

    i call that by now "pulling a Voxility" :')

  • @William said:

    i call that by now "pulling a Voxility" :')

    :) :)

  • @William

    You really tried out metanet ? or do you just want to push M247 ? ^^

  • Butters said: You really tried out metanet ?

    ...

    VM at EDIS as we maintained monitoring, later singlehomed with someone in their DC. Level3, Init7, Interoute and peering - nothing changed in that year seemingly...

    But just so that everyone is happy we'll see once they deliver :)

    I currently have:

    • M247 in ZRH (which works but has weird routing especially with BGP, for the price ok though, weird interface, BGP cheap which is rare)
    • Nine via EDIS (is ok, but EDIS has the "alleged" oversubscribe issues)
    • SinaVPS which is singlehomed Softplus (via 3rd party)
    • Incloudibly which is a Solarcom brand w/ protection direct (weird network routing, ICMP blocked),
    • Kyberna via EDIS in LI (almost CH rite?)
    • Shortly AlpineDC + BGP (French area)

    Formerly used:

    • PrivateLayer (faded? too expensivbe, went bankrupt or so, major warez host then)
    • CloudSigma (free trial, more SaaS oriented but provides sort of VM thing below)
    • Kyberna direct in LI (colo)
    Thanked by 2Butters zeitgeist
  • TamerciagaTamerciaga Member, Host Rep

    @William said:

    • PrivateLayer (faded? too expensivbe, went bankrupt or so, major warez host then)

    If I remember correctly, they couldn't pay the fees to their Panama provider Grupo Panaglobal. Then this company hijacked PL operations and launched: https://www.rackend.com/

    I've received a few mails about their issues, not sure what the fuck actually happened.

  • Qarizma said: If I remember correctly, they couldn't pay the fees to their Panama provider Grupo Panaglobal. Then this company hijacked PL operations and launched: https://www.rackend.com/

    Yea i got that mails and Google Docs as well but the warez sites faded from it and the new company seems to not really sell anything or magically went 100% legit, hm

  • TamerciagaTamerciaga Member, Host Rep

    @Lunar said:
    Does anyone know of some more "lowend" 1U colocations in Switzerland? Basically looking for the cheapest I can get. I'm not really sure what the prices are like there so I can't really give a good budget. Monthly billing would be a requirement though.

    Could you explain why you want this location? Is it for privacy reasons? Because that's not the case anymore, especially if you are living in a country that's an EU member.

  • @Qarizma Privacy is still well protected in Switzerland. Are you referring to the new intelligence law we voted on in September?

  • zeitgeistzeitgeist Member
    edited November 2016

    William said: But just so that everyone is happy we'll see once they deliver :)

    Please keep us updated! I am curious how their VPS performs. As I said, I had a rock-solid network with their dedicated server offerings, but that was that, and it's been already like a year ago.

  • patrick7patrick7 Member, LIR
    edited November 2016

    @william We have a lot of stuff with nine (Rack, 20G BGP, ...) and don't see any problems (except the Brocade MLXe IPsec Crashing bug some time ago, which affected half of the swiss internet like Init7, GGA, Nine, Iway, ....). They use expensive MLXe routers, cabling is clean and they have a lot of knowledge.

    SinaVPS peers direct with softplus, there is no 3rd party involved.

    Comparing Softplus with Nine - I'd go with Nine. Softplus does not even filter prefixes with BGP communities - once a prefix is added to their prefix lists, they announce (leak) it to all upstreams/peers, even if they receive the route from a transit.

  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited November 2016

    patrick7 said: They use expensive MLXe routers

    Yea and i run on software... not like it's relevant... EDIS also has a lot of stuff at NINE probably far longer than you (and yes, we were there as well in office + DC when i still worked there) ;)

    patrick7 said: SinaVPS peers direct with softplus, there is no 3rd party involved.

    3rd party refers to the source of my test server.

    patrick7 said: Comparing Softplus with Nine - I'd go with Nine

    Same but pricing level is not the same.

  • patrick7patrick7 Member, LIR
    edited November 2016

    I know colozüri.ch for a long time - permanent access for almost 6 years now. We have our rack there for ~2years now and my former employer had IP transit from them, so I think I know them good enough to say I can recommend them.

    What problems did you experience with them?

  • patrick7 said: We have our rack there for ~2years

    hehe, EDIS had CH a bit longer already... before i started 2011...

    patrick7 said: What problems did you experience with them?

    With the DC? None, just exorbitant power costs but that is CH.

    With Nine? DDoS, Multiple routing issues... ah just get the status.edis.at history for /location-history/16 and see yourself :)

  • patrick7patrick7 Member, LIR
    edited November 2016

    DDoS has maybe only affected you (as a lowend ISP). I never had any routing issues etc. You get what you pay for (link speed etc). All BGP customers have an own, direct, dedicated, not overbooked port to their core.

    Also in colozüri.ch, everyone is invited to build an own ASN, there are lots of carriers including possibility of CWDM to interxion/equinix, SwissIX, etc... Yes, it looks like EDIS peers with nine, in fact it's just an ASN prepending...

  • patrick7 said: DDoS has maybe only affected you (as a lowend ISP)

    haha, no, we took down Nine entirely a few times, not a secret either. Point is ~20Gbit was way enough to cause major issues and their auto nullroute, if it existed before, did not work or was too slow. I remember many calls and meetings with very pissed people on all sides :)

    patrick7 said: You get what you pay for (link speed etc).

    Nine only offers list pricing to most customers so this is exactly what was done, no lowend blend or similar. They do not even offer that anyway.

    patrick7 said: All BGP customers have an own, direct, dedicated, not overbooked port to their core.

    EDIS has BGP since around 2013 w/ Nine (static), still took down by DDoS afterwards. The Nx1/10Gbit to the core are dedicated, sure, but this does not help external (what are you even arguing about here? our storage at home has by now 5x10G internal yet i can obviously not filter DDoS on that, same discussion point...)

    patrick7 said: Also in colozüri.ch, everyone is invited to build an own ASN, there are lots of carriers including possibility of CWDM to interxion/equinix, SwissIX, etc..

    In BIX i have like 150 Eastern carriers, 100 Western, an exchange and half of the EU governments + a guard with an AK type rifle (and according the switch mechanism it has full auto!), that's about as useful info as your post... you also forgot one crucial point: EDIS has Nine IP ranges (v4 and v6) which Nine does NOT allow to be multihomed via another carrier, even if the size exceeds /24.

    patrick7 said: Yes, it looks like EDIS peers with nine, in fact it's just an ASN prepending...

    No, this was essentially forced on EDIS by Nine as Nine does by default not announce on their ASN and is very unwilling to do so.

  • patrick7patrick7 Member, LIR
    edited November 2016

    Point is ~20Gbit was way enough to cause major issues and their auto nullroute

    • With 20G, a lot of ISPs have their problems. Specially if there are a lot PPS. If you need DDoS protection for your 5$ VPS, pay for it (Voxility, Myracloud, whatever)
    • I bet 90%+ of (Swiss+International) ISPs will blackhole at much less than 20G. A lot of ISPs here don't even have more than 1-2G uplink in total.
    • As you know for sure, much more important than bandwidth is PPS.
    • Nine is a small/middle company. Not comparable to Hetzner&Co. with 1Tbps+

    our storage at home has by now 5x10G internal

    I think you don't pay for any commitment with your home storage, do you?

    EDIS has Nine IP ranges (v4 and v6) which Nine does NOT allow to be multihomed via another carrier, even if the size exceeds /24.

    Why should Nine let you announce their IP space? I wouldn't allow that, too. Bring your own space if you need multihoming. Multi-origin-announcements are dirty (yes, I know you like them).

    No, this was essentially forced on EDIS by Nine as Nine does by default not announce on their ASN and is very unwilling to do so.

    At least they're offering it on their website "BGP including IPv4 and IPv6 PA/PI announcement, origin with AS29691 or dedicated AS option.". For at least one customer they're doing that: http://bgp.he.net/AS29691#_prefixes

    In BIX i have like 150 Eastern carriers, 100 Western

    We're talking about a datacenter in Zurich, Switzerland

    At least, one question: Which ISP do you recommend in Switzerland? I'm looking forward for your recommendation.

  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited November 2016

    patrick7 said: I think you don't pay for any commitment with your home storage, do you?

    YES; that is the point - Nine gives you 1/10G TO THEIR CORE, this means nothing - it's 30m cable at most. Sadly you don't seem to get it...

    UPC/Cablecom also guarantees your full Coax speed... to the first hop, which is the modem...

    Nine, and no one else in this price range, will GUARANTEE you that 10G to even single upstream.

    patrick7 said: If you need DDoS protection for your 5$ VPS, pay for it (Voxility, Myracloud, whatever)

    Why 5$ VPS? EDIS is a large colo customer, who behind it gets attacked is not the ISPs problem, in what world do you live in? You should not even know it is a VPS/whatever as DC, simply not your business.

    patrick7 said: Why should Nine let you announce their IP space? I wouldn't allow that, too.

    That is not the point, the point is YOU said EDIS COULD multihome existing customers in CH inside Colozueri.ch; i have disproven that very simple.

    Further announce of space you got on a BGP enabled session is the default; ask Level3 and Cogent (even i have a /24 in 38/8...)

    patrick7 said: I bet 90%+ of (Swiss+International) ISPs will blackhole at much less than 20G. A lot of ISPs here don't even have more than 1-2G uplink in total.

    If i have 2x10G ports i expect to be able to use 2x10G, if that is DDoS or not is again not the upstream/ISPs problem. PP/S are not my problem; i can EXPECT my upstream to deliver wire speed and full PP/S at the smallest packet size, else their product is not complete.

    patrick7 said: Multi-origin-announcements are dirty (yes, I know you like them).

    Misinformed as always; i do anycast and not multi origin - my CUSTOMERS announce SHORTER prefixes; this is not multi origin but a less specific route.

    patrick7 said: Which ISP do you recommend in Switzerland?

    I posted my list above clearly visible - Outside of that the ones you likely cannot and others do not want to afford: Swisscom, NTS and Green.

  • jh_aurologicjh_aurologic Member, Patron Provider

    @patrick7 said:

    Point is ~20Gbit was way enough to cause major issues and their auto nullroute

    • With 20G, a lot of ISPs have their problems. Specially if there are a lot PPS. If you need DDoS protection for your 5$ VPS, pay for it (Voxility, Myracloud, whatever)

    Depends on the ISP and which sort of customers he serves ;)

    Serious ISPs should normally have routing equipment in place, which is able to handle traffic line-rate nowadays, everything other is unacceptable and should not be considered as reliable.

  • Kabeldamagement said: Serious ISPs should normally have routing equipment in place, which is able to handle traffic line-rate nowadays, everything other is unacceptable and should not be considered as reliable.

    I mean.. yea... if i get 2 10G ports i'd expect to use that 20G however i want and no one until now cared if it was DDoS or not (thx Nforce! Great SW filtering possibilities :'))

    Thanked by 1jh_aurologic
  • jh_aurologicjh_aurologic Member, Patron Provider

    @William said:

    Kabeldamagement said: Serious ISPs should normally have routing equipment in place, which is able to handle traffic line-rate nowadays, everything other is unacceptable and should not be considered as reliable.

    I mean.. yea... if i get 2 10G ports i'd expect to use that 20G however i want and no one until now cared if it was DDoS or not (thx Nforce! Great SW filtering possibilities :'))

    In the past, we had accidentally 2x 10G Ports (LACP) with a Tier 2 Carrier which runs also a smaller Internet Exchange Point and two Datacenters in Frankfurt. Unfortunately, we had randomly the case, that the upstream router "died" due to ddos attacks which were in fact not larger than 10-12Gbit/s. That was totally annoying, I would never go again with them and can fully understand your point in that case. Providing such sort of transit is ridiculous and anything other than reputable.

  • patrick7patrick7 Member, LIR
    edited November 2016

    @William

    Nine, and no one else in this price range, will GUARANTEE you that 10G to even single upstream.

    I never said that. I said YOUR link to the core is not overbooked. That means you are not affected if a server next to yours (on the same switch) in the same rack is being attacked and the uplink of the switch is full.

    UPC/Cablecom also guarantees your full Coax speed...

    UPC/Cablecom does not guarantee any speed. They say "up to 250 Mbps". You could get only 100 Mbps and they wouldn't care (see their overloaded peerings to Init7, they have packetloss and are informed about that since years and the only thing they say is "we are aware but we don't care")

    Why 5$ VPS? EDIS is a large colo customer

    I also know. What I tried to say: If you want to offer DDoS protection to your customers (and expect DDoS to appear), then you should pay your money to any anti DDoS ISP like Voxility, Myracloud, ... Nine is a Colo/Dedi/Managed provider. Not AntiDDoS. At some point a DDoS will appear on any network and I bet any network has bad experience with DDoS. That's not just nine but 95% of all ISPs.

    Example: Hetzner had absolutely NO DDoS protection until a few months ago.

    YOU said EDIS COULD multihome existing customers in CH

    That's true. But no LIR is forced to allow you to announce their IP space. If you say "nine is shit because they don't let me announce their space", you are totally wrong. I'm sorry for that.
    My statement that multihoming is possible @ colozueri.ch is still 100% true. colozueri.ch is carrier neutral since the facility has been opened.
    It seems EDIS just does not meet the requirements if they use IP space from their upstreams. And again, Nine is NOT Cogent, nine is NOT level3 and nine is NOT (put in another name). Become LIR and be happy (or free up some space in order to use it with "right" BGP).

    i can EXPECT my upstream to deliver wire speed

    Carefully read ToS (you agree to them). Where do they commit to deliver any DDoS to you? Every ISP has to protect its own network.
    Where do they promise to let you announce their IP space? If you would have asked in advance, they may have told you about this circumstances.

    this is not multi origin but a less specific route.

    That's a more specific route from your customer. Anyways. If you announce a /22 v4 to your peer, and your peer only has partial table (example peering at any local IXP + default from transit). Now your customer announces the /24 out of that /22 somewhere else in the world. ALL traffic from your peer to that /24 will flow THROUGH YOU! If you do firewalling, RP_Filter or what ever, have fun!

    Swisscom

    You are joking, right? Swisscom is maybe 0.1% better than Deutsche Telekom with their peering knowledge. They let you pay for traffic their customers request.

    @Kabeldamagement

    There are different types of ISPs. Small ones with a smaller network - bigger ones with a big network. Not everyone can afford spending multiple 10k€ for hardware. Not everyone needs 100G transit bandwidth. And that's the exact reason why william says Nine's network is shi*. If they would promise DDoS protection, and they would fail in protecting you, then you could say their network is not good. But they don't give any promises on that!

    DDoS protection is a complex and expensive thing. And it should not be expected from any ISP to have 100G+Anti DDoS. It is nice to have. If someone really needs that, he should pay for it.

  • zeitgeistzeitgeist Member
    edited November 2016

    @William said:
    I posted my list above clearly visible - Outside of that the ones you likely cannot and others do not want to afford: Swisscom, NTS and Green.

    Green? :) I once met Mr. Grüter, when he was still running The Internet Company, before it fused with Green. Not sure, I guess as a CEO he doesn't have to be competent in technical aspects, but back then everything he and his company did seemed rather amateurish to me.

  • patrick7patrick7 Member, LIR

    By the way, the minimal contract duration for an inhouse patch in their datacenter is.... What wouuld you expect?..... 3 fucking years!

  • Interesting discussion btw for someone like me who knows relatively little about peering etc. So can we all agree that the colo/dedi market in CH doesn't win any Oscars? :)

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