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ITT: Delimiter pisses off /r/Sysadmin
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ITT: Delimiter pisses off /r/Sysadmin

iNapiNap Member
edited May 2016 in General

http://pastebin.com/jBaYPxRq

http://i.imgur.com/OLbi9RI.png

https://pay.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/4hx9w4/eve_online_guild_moves_voice_chat_to_a_new_host/

https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/4hx9w4/eve_online_guild_moves_voice_chat_to_a_new_host/d2t7jn8

I just found it hilarious, particularly since I ran a mumble server with a similar PPS with a different provider on a gigabit connection and had no problems. It seems Delimiter has confused CGN with intentional DDoS. xD

I wonder how oversubscribed their network is if less than 1 million PPS is a problem.

Thanked by 1ManofServer
«13

Comments

  • Whatever happened with their outage?

  • iNapiNap Member
    edited May 2016

    @SysAdmin said:
    Whatever happened with their outage?

    http://delimiterstatus.com/?start_date=2016-04-01

    That one or a different one?

  • The one where they had some electrical issue.

  • iNapiNap Member

    @SysAdmin said:
    The one where they had some electrical issue.

    That is the most recent one I think, there are several. I think it was resolved on 4/1.

  • Wow @mikeyur @MarkTurner would you like to help out with this topic?

  • iNapiNap Member
    edited May 2016

    @timnboys said:
    Wow @mikeyur @MarkTurner would you like to help out with this topic?

    @MarkTurner is banned. source: https://www.lowendtalk.com/profile/MarkTurner

  • dailydaily Member

    @timnboys said:
    Wow @mikeyur @MarkTurner would you like to help out with this topic?

    What would they have to help you out with? What you see is what you get. Same attitude that is always present. @mikeyur is a great guy, though.

    Thanked by 1Junkless
  • @dailymc said:

    @timnboys said:
    Wow @mikeyur @MarkTurner would you like to help out with this topic?

    What would they have to help you out with? What you see is what you get. Same attitude that is always present. @mikeyur is a great guy, though.

    I don't need them to help me out I need them to help out the @OP

  • iNapiNap Member
    edited May 2016

    @dailymc said:

    @timnboys said:
    Wow @mikeyur @MarkTurner would you like to help out with this topic?

    What would they have to help you out with? What you see is what you get. Same attitude that is always present. @mikeyur is a great guy, though.

    Yeah, and I'm not the customer in question either, I'm just throwing this out there since its at the top of /r/sysadmin and Delimiter is active enough in selling here people should be aware they consider that small PPS a DoS.

    @timnboys said:

    @dailymc said:

    @timnboys said:
    Wow @mikeyur @MarkTurner would you like to help out with this topic?

    What would they have to help you out with? What you see is what you get. Same attitude that is always present. @mikeyur is a great guy, though.

    I don't need them to help me out I need them to help out the @OP

    There isn't anything to help with. Its more just a public warning about what PPS gets you null routed with Delimiter because its absurdly low if they think CGN is DoS.

  • dailydaily Member

    @timnboys said:

    @dailymc said:

    @timnboys said:

    Help him with what? Getting away from GhettoServers™? I think you've got a huge misunderstanding in this issue.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited May 2016

    That's rough. Just thinking about the original problem. Not sure where I stand on 200k PPS on a Dedi. Given that it was probably a cheap one I can probably understand it.

    As for customer service, it's really hard not to snap back at customers. I get that. I struggle with it too. Sometimes admins make bad customer experiences worse. I challenge us all to do better, myself included.

  • hawchawc Moderator, LIR
    edited May 2016

    Well well well. Delimiter have had quite the fall from grace over these past few weeks. Not a coupon code in the world could sort this out @mikeyur

  • NekkiNekki Veteran

    Why do we care what's going on at Reddit? We've got plenty of our own Delimiter drama without dragging someone else's over here.

  • RadiRadi Host Rep, Veteran

    Delimiter's right.
    It's customer's fault for cancellation.

    /thread

  • iNapiNap Member

    @jarland said:
    That's rough. Just thinking about the original problem. Not sure where I stand on 200k PPS on a Dedi. Given that it was probably a cheap one I can probably understand it.

    Yeah, its mainly just a datapoint/warning so other people don't make the same mistake since 200k PPS doesn't seem high enough to trigger a null route to me and pretty much any decent sized guild would hit that, particularly with many users behind CGN. Then again its LET so I can't say I'm too surprised. :p

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @iNap said:

    @jarland said:
    That's rough. Just thinking about the original problem. Not sure where I stand on 200k PPS on a Dedi. Given that it was probably a cheap one I can probably understand it.

    Yeah, its mainly just a datapoint/warning so other people don't make the same mistake since 200k PPS doesn't seem high enough to trigger a null route to me and pretty much any decent sized guild would hit that, particularly with many users behind CGN. Then again its LET so I can't say I'm too surprised. :p

    It's definitely high enough for a shared port. Depends on what server they had and how the network is set up I guess. Honestly I've never personally witnessed voice chat at that level, I think they need to start looking into non-budget options for sure.

  • iNapiNap Member
    edited May 2016

    @jarland said:

    @iNap said:

    @jarland said:
    That's rough. Just thinking about the original problem. Not sure where I stand on 200k PPS on a Dedi. Given that it was probably a cheap one I can probably understand it.

    Yeah, its mainly just a datapoint/warning so other people don't make the same mistake since 200k PPS doesn't seem high enough to trigger a null route to me and pretty much any decent sized guild would hit that, particularly with many users behind CGN. Then again its LET so I can't say I'm too surprised. :p

    It's definitely high enough for a shared port. Depends on what server they had and how the network is set up I guess. Honestly I've never personally witnessed voice chat at that level, I think they need to start looking into non-budget options for sure.

    It is more if they have that kind of threshold, they really should publish it because its basically opinion + "LOL I HAVE YOUR $$ TOO BAD".

    So I'm publicizing the threshold so people are aware.

  • trvztrvz Member
    edited May 2016

    I'm amused that a group of hundreds of IT professionals can't get a good server at a good provider in the first place.

  • @SysAdmin said:
    Whatever happened with their outage?

    Their team themselves gotten an outage.

    A separate one.

    Only documented with LowEndTalk and Reddit.

    They did not mention on their status page cause they can't detect an outage in themselves.

    Premium drama.

    Thanked by 1iNap
  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    200k PPS can easily be 2Gbps which is more than most dedicated servers provide. Also it's worth noting that 150k PPS would wreck most software routers (i.e. Vyatta). 200k PPS is a lot for a single client and can easily take down a network if a handful of clients tried to push that at the same time.

    90k stand packets will flood a single 1Gbps uplink. Something to think about.

  • XenosXenos Member

    Don't expect @mikeyur to respond. He's been on LET, but hasn't posted anything since @MarkTurner was banned.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • doghouchdoghouch Member
    edited May 2016

    @KuJoe said:
    200k PPS can easily be 2Gbps which is more than most dedicated servers provide. Also it's worth noting that 150k PPS would wreck most software routers (i.e. Vyatta). 200k PPS is a lot for a single client and can easily take down a network if a handful of clients tried to push that at the same time.

    90k stand packets will flood a single 1Gbps uplink. Something to think about.

    Well, it also depends on the edge routers. They usually have a max. # of packets that they can processed at a time (i.e. around 1m PPS on a decent router) before they go down :/

    (assuming the uplink hasn't been saturated yet)

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran
    edited May 2016

    I'm guessing there was no pre-sales conversation ("I'm thinking of running X, is that OK?") which is unfortunate for both sides.

    A key part here is "You will be given a warning before suspension for misuse of resources occurs."

    And they apparently didn't do that.

    The customer was a dick as well - hell hath no fury like a geek inconvenienced. At the end of the day, this is what, $30 or $40? I might take it up my credit card company but it wouldn't be enough to make me get into that sort of language.

    Thanked by 2netomx Pwner
  • iNapiNap Member
    edited May 2016

    @KuJoe said:
    200k PPS can easily be 2Gbps which is more than most dedicated servers provide. Also it's worth noting that 150k PPS would wreck most software routers (i.e. Vyatta). 200k PPS is a lot for a single client and can easily take down a network if a handful of clients tried to push that at the same time.

    90k stand packets will flood a single 1Gbps uplink. Something to think about.

    http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/about/security-center/network-performance-metrics.html#2

    Depends on payload size. For something like Mumble with the right quality tweaks [i.e. lowest quality settings], you can hit 200k PPS on a 1Gbps and have it function. Hell, small enough packets, you can get close to ~1 million PPS although I doubt any reasonably priced piece of network gear would be able to handle you doing that on every port.

    I'd guess its more likely switches/routers/etc. were unable to handle the PPS volume in this case.

    @raindog308
    A key part here is "You will be given a warning before suspension for misuse of resources occurs."

    Yeah. Also, just, if you have a PPS threshold that triggers null routes as a matter of policy [as Delimiter appears to] you really should just write that threshold down.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    iNap said: I'd guess its more likely switches/routers/etc. were unable to handle the PPS volume in this case.

    image

  • iNapiNap Member
    edited May 2016

    @raindog308 said:

    iNap said: I'd guess its more likely switches/routers/etc. were unable to handle the PPS volume in this case.

    image

    10/10 would run my LET business off one of those. :)


    I'm kidding. Please don't do that.

  • MikePTMikePT Moderator, Patron Provider, Veteran

    @raindog308 said:

    iNap said: I'd guess its more likely switches/routers/etc. were unable to handle the PPS volume in this case.

    image

    I bet FDC used to run their network in those switches.

  • DylanDylan Member

    raindog308 said: The customer was a dick as well - hell hath no fury like a geek inconvenienced. At the end of the day, this is what, $30 or $40? I might take it up my credit card company but it wouldn't be enough to make me get into that sort of language.

    I'm honestly curious: how do you think the customer was a dick? He seemed surprisingly civil and mild in that ticket paste.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited May 2016

    Dylan said: I'm honestly curious: how do you think the customer was a dick? He seemed surprisingly civil and mild in that ticket paste.

    Maybe dick isn't the right word. Maybe unwilling to consider the situation from a technical standpoint as well as a financial one. Had he done so, he might have leaned toward problem solving instead of moving on.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    Dylan said: I'm honestly curious: how do you think the customer was a dick? He seemed surprisingly civil and mild in that ticket paste.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/4hx9w4/eve_online_guild_moves_voice_chat_to_a_new_host/d2t7jn8

    "We are going to ride you into the fucking ground, faggots." Etc.

    The whole "you just pissed off a group of 4,000" stuff is kind of juvenile, too. I had horrible customer service at a store the other day but didn't say "I work in a company of 85,000 people and YOU WILL REGRET THIS".

    Heck, maybe I'll use that line next time..."my religion has over 2 billion adherents and you just pissed a third of the planet off!"

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