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VPS group buys?
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VPS group buys?

alfredalfred Member, Host Rep
edited February 2016 in General

Hi LET!

I have a sliver of an idea, and I thought I'd just gauge interest.

So, currently it's possible to get a decent dedicated server with a good provider for 60-100 dollars.

For example:

  • OVH: $69: D-1520, 32GB RAM, 4TB HDD, 1Gbps. Split across 8 people, each user gets 1 thread, 4GB RAM, 500GB HDD, all dedicated. $9/month per person.
  • Incero: $89: E3-1230v1, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD, 100mbit. Across 8 people, this is around $12/month for a dedicated thread, 1GB RAM, 15GB SSD.

At least for me, I would totally pay the price to get this, knowing soundly that the server is not oversold, but shared between just a few neighbors.

And of course, even lower-end servers could be shared for super cheap prices if that's in demand.

Just my thoughts. So, good idea? Bad idea?

VPS group buys...
  1. Good idea?65 votes
    1. Yes
      20.00%
    2. No
      80.00%

Comments

  • You need to take into account that you are getting a worse CPU.

  • Not an expert here but having 8 people hammering disk IO might turn bad. And then, who would be managing the host machine, provision VMs, configure updates, etc. I'd rather buy a smaller dedi or get a VPS with those specs. Just my 3 cents

    Thanked by 1alfred
  • Probably not going to work as it always comes down to one person to order and pay the server.
    Which has to be done every month even if the others are lazy, late or just giving up on the server.
    Besides the payment hassle there are other responsibilities. Who wants to take the risk to be the one held liable for maybe some of the others doing illegal shit?

    Nice idea, but as said probablynot going to work unless your group consist of your best schoolbuddies (and even those may break up ;-))

  • Awmusic12635Awmusic12635 Member, Host Rep
    edited February 2016

    While it worked out ok for me many years ago I would not recommend it.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    @Falzo nailed it. If you have a few people you know personally (family, friends, etc.) then this can work. 8 strangers? Nyah...

    • you're on the hook to pay and now you have the hassle of collecting sub-payments, fights if someone doesn't pay, what if someone wants to quit and others don't want to increase their share, etc.

    • what if someone sets up LowEndKiddiePorn.com on your box, or spams, or is just a resource-hogging jerk, etc.

    • "but I don't want you to reboot Monday and I don't care about security patches"

    • "no, I don't want to upgrade the OS/cpu/disk/etc."

    • "hey, the server was slow" - whose job to troubleshoot? Only one guy (the bill-payer) can open tickets with the provider...

    etc. All the joys of being a hosting provider, none of the profits.

  • alfredalfred Member, Host Rep

    Thanks for the feedback everyone!

    I was thinking something more like Massdrop, but I guess with the recurring payments it won't work out too well.

  • goinsj2010goinsj2010 Member
    edited February 2016

    I'm actually considering this exact strategy. As others have noted, the problem seems to be threefold... 1) finding trustworthy people to share with 2) disk I/O 3) server management.

    My major concern is point number 1. Maybe a signed contract would eliminate the liability?
    I currently own a medium-end server with an E3-1241v3 CPU (4 core/8 threads) 2x250GB SSD, and 4x3TB HDD. Colo with Incero/others seems to be around $70/mo including IPs and such.

    Splitting with 5 other people would bring the cost to about $12/mo for a dedicated thread and ~1TB of space. In my case I'm looking to reduce the cost of colo, not as a money making venture. With KernelCare and software SSD caching I think the reboot and I/O issues wouldn't be a problem. Instead, the problem is the trust issue.

    (Edited to improve formatting)

  • BunnySpeedBunnySpeed Member, Host Rep

    Unless there's a dedicated person taking care of the server I guess you're getting a lot of worries and headaches when something goes wrong for not that huge of a price difference. Also you're giving up RAID so if anything goes wrong you're kind of screwed and the Incero 15GB SSD is quite low. It seems like a great idea at first sight but when I think about it I'd rather give up a coffe per month and sleep at night instead of tearing my hair out because the single installed 128GB SSD just died.

  • alfredalfred Member, Host Rep
    edited February 2016

    Looking around a bit more and thinking about some of the issues raised:

    • I will likely to be the one running the server and paying for it. Customer support will be limited and/or slower, which is a downside. On the other hand, it will be transparent and friendly!
    • As long as there is sufficient demand, the server will continue running. Sure, there will be a few days between when someone leaves and someone else signs up, but as long as there is demand I can keep it running.
    • Found another OVH server: E3-1231v3, 16GB RAM, a couple of 4TB HDDs for $79/mo. To address disk I/O issues, I can probably add on 4 300GB SSDs for around 10-12 dollars, then set them up in RAID 10 (is SW RAID acceptable?). IP's cost $3 flat set-up, free monthly according to their site.
    • As for illegal activity, I would probably be able to handle those based on IP? Anyone doing anything illegal/bad would be "kicked".
    • I'm a software engineer by trade, so I can set-up a website for communication, automatic payments, etc. Not an issue there.

    I would doubt that anyone would consider the E3 a crappy CPU ;)

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    raindog308 said: All the joys of being a hosting provider, none of the profits.

    That's the key point right there. Ultimately you'll be managing billing, support, and making executive decisions to keep the server safe, secure, and online. What does that make you? A VPS provider. Hardly a job I would recommend anyone take up just to save a few dollars.

  • If someone wants to start the group buy website/company and willing to manage the billing / technical stuff, then maybe this is doable. But then it becomes another hosting provider, but in a fancy title.

  • alfredalfred Member, Host Rep

    jarland said: What does that make you? A VPS provider. Hardly a job I would recommend anyone take up just to save a few dollars.

    I guess the idea is to pass on the profits as savings to the members. This would have a much flatter, cooperative structure than a typical provider (everyone chips in a bit of help and patience for the "greater good").

    Plus, for me at least, it would be a great learning opportunity as well!

  • AndreixAndreix Member, Host Rep

    @alfred said:

    Just curious: Do you need a VPS or do you want to buy a server and virtualize it just for fun ?

  • alfredalfred Member, Host Rep
    edited March 2016

    Andreix said: Just curious: Do you need a VPS or do you want to buy a server and virtualize it just for fun ?

    Both, I guess. I need a VPS, but I have one so I don't need this idea specifically.

    More like: I want a high-performance VPS without paying that much, and I'm willing to do some admin things and spend a bit of my time to get it :)

  • @jarland said:
    That's the key point right there. Ultimately you'll be managing billing, support, and making executive decisions to keep the server safe, secure, and online. What does that make you? A VPS provider. Hardly a job I would recommend anyone take up just to save a few dollars.

    I can't agree more, just get a cheap dedicated server and have safe much with it.

  • MikePTMikePT Moderator, Patron Provider, Veteran

    Well, not vpsgroup buys, but... Sharing dedicated servers, over years. I've been sponsoring a project that does it, for a long time.

    www.seedwave.net , it's a closed community. They're quite inactive now, though.

  • No chance to do it properly with strangers.
    The one way to do it is to buy the server yourself, split it into virtual nodes and resell the vps nodes here or elsewhere.

  • alfredalfred Member, Host Rep
    edited March 2016

    iClickAndHost said: The one way to do it is to buy the server yourself, split it into virtual nodes and resell the vps nodes here or elsewhere.

    That would be what I'm thinking. The main difference then between what I would offer and a typical VPS would be that there wouldn't be as many VMs per machine, and customer support would be slower. So I guess it depends if people are willing to accept the tradeoff.


    Just out of curiosity, too: how many VMs per physical server is common for a standard VPS provider? With this model it would be 8 or 16 sharing a CPU, but I've definitely seen host nodes with hundreds of gigs of RAM...

  • FalzoFalzo Member

    you easily will see providers bringing >100 VMs on a 32GB Ram server with 4/8 cpu and raid1 sata hdd. such things are very common, depends on your pricing model and how you want to virtualize and make money out of it. support often is even slower than you want to give or non existent.

    this kind of business model is mostly known as 'summer host' ;-)

    if you start it, and it runs somewhat easy in the beginning, you'll soon begin of thinking why not cramming some more VMs on the node, there are ressources that are not always used, so lets make some money out of it and so on... next question will be where to get cheap IPs and how to oversell xen/KVM etc.

    and you are probably going exactly the way all those hosts started (no offense meant) but it all starts with the same thoughts...

    Thanked by 2raindog308 sayem314
  • alfredalfred Member, Host Rep

    I'm most definitely not here to make money out of this :)

    I'd be doing this mostly for the experience and for the cost savings. I'm a full-time student so this will likely stay as a side project.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    alfred said: I'd be doing this mostly for the experience and for the cost savings. I'm a full-time student so this will likely stay as a side project.

    And there's nothing wrong with that. I think where it becomes problematic is where you invite strangers, because of the potential for abuse.

    If it's just people you know personally, a lot of concerns go away, though you still have the "collect everyone's money and pay the bill" headaches, as well as being the sole pathway to technical support from the provider.

  • As an analogy think about sharing your cell phone's family plan with a few strangers. You will have to worry about collecting payment from them every month, and for shared data, if any of them is over quota you will have more headaches.

  • alfredalfred Member, Host Rep
    edited March 2016

    Thanks for your input!
    I'll likely be monitoring resource usage and complaints. I'll probably also have a bit more of a rigorous ordering process in terms of questions to mitigate these sorts of issues.

    As for demand though, do you think that LETers will buy a VPS of this type? Slower support for a faster server?

  • This is the same idea where a bunch of friends get a really nice house because they split the rent and at the end, the landlord kicks them out because the place is trashed and/or the rent didn't get paid.

  • LET is a very diverse crowd and I personally think that there would be interest in VPS's that are a little more money for much better resources (even if the support is slower). Unfortunately the price then becomes out of the LET guidelines (> $7/mo) so I don't know how you would inform people of your offerings.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    doughmanes said: This is the same idea where a bunch of friends get a really nice house because they split the rent and at the end, the landlord kicks them out because the place is trashed and/or the rent didn't get paid.

    Funny, I had the same thought - not about trashing, but the world is replete with young people who get together to share an apartment and then have a falling out over the phone bill, who used more electricity, who was late paying their share one month, who's move out and how that screws the rest, etc.

    Thanked by 1doughmanes
  • alfredalfred Member, Host Rep
    edited March 2016

    Right, but in this case I'm also the landlord ;)

    Notwithstanding the dedicated server provider kicking me out, which is definitely still a concern for me.

  • How many people have a online.net dedi with RPN (private network) ?

    I was just thinking it would be cool to run a co-op kubernetes cluster. Auto-migrate jobs across hosts.

    Port 25 should be blocked first. :D

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