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Ghost moving their "head office" to Singapore
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Ghost moving their "head office" to Singapore

https://blog.ghost.org/moving-to-singapore/

What I found interesting was the mention of MOSS, in particular that they think they can now stop charging VAT in the EU. Think they need to do more research. Oh too late :)

@AnthonySmith

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Comments

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    Lee said: Think they need to do more research

    Does Singapore have a tax treaty for it?

  • @Lee said:
    https://blog.ghost.org/moving-to-singapore/

    What I found interesting was the mention of MOSS, in particular that they think they can now stop charging VAT in the EU. Think they need to do more research. Oh too late :)

    AnthonySmith

    They moved a company to a different country in a different continent to (at least in part) solve a problem they have not solved at all?

  • I wish WHMCS moves away from EU.

  • Seen that earlier today. Seems like they took a lot of time and consideration to reach this point and inevitably it's going to be "oh well, the EU can't enforce their laws over there". Which is fine, until they want to talk about respecting the law.

  • @WHT said:
    I wish WHMCS moves away from EU.

    They claim they are from the USA now.


    Find more on twitter. Even though on their website they have WHMCS Ltd. But hey who cares :D

  • Where will they move if stripe closes their account?

    Lee said: What I found interesting was the mention of MOSS, in particular that they think they can now stop charging VAT in the EU.

  • jhjh Member

    @ricardo said:
    Seen that earlier today. Seems like they took a lot of time and consideration to reach this point and inevitably it's going to be "oh well, the EU can't enforce their laws over there". Which is fine, until they want to talk about respecting the law.

    I don't understand - they have no obligation whatsoever to abide by the laws of a country where they are not based and where there is no tax treaty. What the EU has to say on the matter is completely irrelevant and wishful.

    If their foundation is physically in the UK then at the worst, they're pulling a Google, Apple, Starbucks, Amazon...

  • You're right. There's no mechanism that'll force them to pay tax to the EU.

    I don't understand

    They're under the impression they won't have to charge VAT but they 'should'. If they feel so strongly about it, they shouldn't accept EU customers.

    Thanked by 1jar
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited February 2016

    ricardo said: Which is fine, until they want to talk about respecting the law.

    I'm kind of split on it. You charge VAT when you yourself are not legally required to out of respect for your EU customers to allow them to be compliant to their local laws.

    However, you can't respect the laws of every single country. You just can't. Some countries have data laws that make it impossible to host their content outside of their own country, for example. You can't submit to every law that you're not legally bound to yourself. It's not reasonable.

    Every one of us would ignore the law of a country if the customer in that country was willing to themselves, I submit. Which law and which country are the only questions. China, Iran, every single one of us would find a country and a law that we would say "If you want to break the law of your own country, I'm not going to stand in your way."

    So that's kind of where I'm caught on the matter. Respect for the customer's legal requirements vs choosing to not willingly submit to laws that I am not legally required to submit to.

    Thanked by 1ricardo
  • jhjh Member
    edited February 2016

    Licensecart said: They claim they are from the USA now.

    So Iran can have nukes but not WHMCS?

    I can't keep up with the bullshit.

  • VAT MOSS is an entirely legitimate reason to set up your business outside the EU IMO.

    We charge VAT and new users get a pop up confirming their location. If they are in the EU we ask for a VAT number, and charge VAT where relevant. Users can go out their way to say they're not in the EU but we are as a company obligated to be reasonably sure they are.

    I don't think VATMOSS is a complicated thing. There's one reason and one reason alone I think it's bad... it puts EU companies at a disadvantage against non-EU competition.

  • @Licensecart said:
    Find more on twitter. Even though on their website they have WHMCS Ltd. But hey who cares :D

    Cant be. Am still paying VAT. I like blesta to :)

  • aglodekaglodek Member
    edited February 2016

    @ricardo said: Seen that earlier today. Seems like they took a lot of time and consideration to reach this point and inevitably it's going to be "oh well, the EU can't enforce their laws over there". Which is fine, until they want to talk about respecting the law.

    Many voice their concerns about the possibility of EU enforcing their laws outside EU (read: outside EU's jurisdiction). This is perfectly understandable. The PATRIOT Act… FATCA… the US Government has shown the way by successfully bullying foreign banks and even governments to "respect" such abominations. Also understandably, EU is following suit trying to get a piece of the action. This is bad enough. But when uninformed people start believing in and advocating the need to "respect" such "laws", that's when things really get out of hand. Check the meaning of jurisdiction first, before taking part in any sort of discussion of respect for the law, please!

  • aglodek said: please!

    Wait until the US gov and friends have their way with insane copyright and IP laws.

    Thinking about backing up your software will be made illegal soon(TM).

    Thanked by 1aglodek
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    GM2015 said: Thinking about backing up your software will be made illegal soon(TM).

    Yeah but look at who you said will be responsible:

    GM2015 said: US gov

    Our government launched a huge health care bill and then built the website, designed to house tons of private data and help people find insurance, with Wordpress.

    I think we're safe.

  • sends chicken rice to virtual address

  • ricardoricardo Member
    edited February 2016

    aglodek said: Many voice their concerns about the possibility of EU enforcing their laws outside EU (read: outside EU's jurisdiction). This is perfectly understandable. The PATRIOT Act… FATCA… the US Government has shown the way by successfully bullying foreign banks and even governments to "respect" such abominations. Also understandably, EU is following suit trying to get a piece of the action. This is bad enough. But when uninformed people start believing in and advocating the need to "respect" such "laws", that's when things really get out of hand. Check the meaning of jurisdiction first, before taking part in any sort of discussion of respect for the law, please!

    Thanks for your condescending post (idiot).

    The context here is the link in the OP and whether you pay VAT MOSS because that's what the EU wants you do to, to do business with people in the EU.

    Talking about the patriot act.... next you'll be invoking hitler. It's not about the illuminati, your poopy pants views on the world order, etc. :)

  • I don't really care as long as they not drop the ghost open source development lol

    Thanked by 1BeardyUnixGuy
  • GM2015GM2015 Member
    edited February 2016

    rokok said: I don't really care as long as they not drop the ghost open source development lol

    I've tried it on digitalocean sometime ago and didn't like it.

    And I really really dislike javascript.

    Facebook and Google trends made me dislike it. And all the other javascript heavy pages and tin-foil wrapped articles.

  • @GM2015 said:

    My personal blog running ghost 2 years since early version 0.4. The updates getting improve, you should try now :)

    Must say yes its quite "heavy" for javascript powered, but look very very nice on front-end and the markdown just make my world simple :)

  • @rokok said:
    Must say yes its quite "heavy" for javascript powered, but look very very nice on front-end and the markdown just make my world simple :)

    It was a big shock when I moved from a provider to another and I updated it on the way without looking at any changelogs, thought I just lost all my data lmao. I must say it's great, too!

  • Lost once when updating to 0.5 if i remember correctly hehe, after that never happened. I'm running manual updates since then and already change provider twice. Never had any issue.

  • LeeLee Veteran

    jarland said: Does Singapore have a tax treaty for it?

    Makes no difference where you are, the rules for supplying services to people in the EU are the same.

    Whether you agree or disagree is not the point. For many of us in the EU who want to operate within the laws without risk of future penalty we need to comply.

    The more we are expected/forced to comply the more there becomes a need to have a solution that prevents me having to pay and others not.

    Thanked by 2GM2015 aglodek
  • @ricardo said: Thanks for your condescending post (idiot).

    Wut?

    The context here is the link in the OP and whether you pay VAT MOSS because that's what the EU wants you do to, to do business with people in the EU.

    Oh, boy! I was kidding! I was just making a point. I never expected you really have no inkling of what jurisdiction is!

    Talking about the patriot act.... next you'll be invoking hitler. It's not about the illuminati, your poopy pants views on the world order, etc. :)

    Learn to read with comprehension, then you'll be a partner for an intelligent conversation… maybe… Okay, now, that's real condescending for ya! ;)

  • A 2nd helping of low-ball insults and trash talk? very good sir!

    The EU wants you to respect the fact they want companies to charge and collect VAT to European consumers. It's really that simple. Don't bother respecting the laws of countries where you do business, if you like. Typically, I've found people who take this indifferent view to societies constructs the kind of folk who sit in a basement and smell their own farts all day, pretending what they do on a PC is important.

    :)

  • LeeLee Veteran
    edited February 2016

    ricardo said: I don't think VATMOSS is a complicated thing. There's one reason and one reason alone I think it's bad... it puts EU companies at a disadvantage against non-EU competition.

    And this is what it comes right down to.

    And whilst Ghost run off to their virtual office in Singapore happy at evading MOSS they are though quite happy to have their hosted platform sitting in the EU...

    Thanked by 1ricardo
  • @Lee said:
    And whilst Ghost run off to their virtual office in Singapore happy at evading MOSS they are though quite happy to have their hosted platform sitting in the EU...

    They don't seem to have been terribly well advised. Moving the company out of the EU (albeit only legaly) doesn't mean they don't have to account for VAT for EU customers (just look at DigitalOcean, Vultr, etc, etc)

    Thanked by 1Lee
  • aglodekaglodek Member
    edited February 2016

    @ricardo said: A 2nd helping of low-ball insults and trash talk? very good sir!

    We aim to please, sir ;)

    The EU wants you to respect the fact they want companies to charge and collect VAT to European consumers. It's really that simple. Don't bother respecting the laws of countries where you do business, if you like.

    Like I said: the keyword in this here dispute is jurisdiction! Where you do business is where your company is registered (read: resident of), not where you sell to. You should be aware of and comply with the laws of your jurisdiction. Period. With tens of thousands of pages of new regulations being produced daily on a global scale and in 100+ languages to boot, anything else would amount to legal anarchy!

    By all means, let EU impose laws on its residents and compel them to follow them (e.g. pay VAT on any purchase made online). Same with the US with respect to its own residents. Same with China, Russia et al. Once you start vomiting "laws" you deem to apply to other jurisdictions, others will follow suit, which is the case in point. It's only a matter of time now when China or Iran or Saudi Arabia adds a stipulation that their regulations apply worlwide and you may find yourself subject to hard time, if not death penalty, for saying something pretty innocent in public in your own country that those governments deem offensive to their respective people. Are you sure this is the world you want to live in?

  • aglodek said: Where you do business is where your company is registered

    Yes, but try telling this to the local tax authorities if you live here (or elsewhere in the EU). They will have their own opinion and will try to tax you to death.

    Thanked by 1aglodek
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