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Asia Demand In EU/UK and vice versa?

KenshinKenshin Member
edited January 2013 in General

Yet another market research thread in LET! :)

Jokes aside, poking around for feedback on strengthening our SG-EU link. Right now with the mix I have latency is still relatively hit/miss with EU/UK, occasionally via US instead (300-500ms). Bandwidth can be pretty horrible (150KB/sec) to 2MB/sec. Targeting 200-300ms latency, and stable 100mbps bandwidth speeds (ideally).

I'm looking for feedback from both EU/UK users connecting to SG and also Asia users connecting to EU/UK. I'm aware there's a lot of content in EU due to the cheap hosting providers there (OVH/Hetzner), so the Asia<->OAH<->EU for VPN/proxy purposes would be interesting as well. Is this something that EU/UK/Asia customers will possibly want?

In case anyone is interested in the math, just base it off my current pricing. I don't plan to increase pricing even if I introduce this. :)

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Comments

  • MelitaMelita Member, Host Rep
    edited January 2013

    I think you've already got two decent upstreams in your mix, namely DTAG and StarHub (which is using TeliaSonera). It's just that most of the time when I try tracerouting EU IP, it gets routed via HE instead (or the incoming processed through USA, be it NTT, HE). I noticed this last time 2 weeks ago (on my VPS bought from you), haven't tried again lately.

    You should aim for 150ms ~ 250ms latency btw :)

  • NekkiNekki Veteran

    I'd definitely be interested - I already purchased one of your plans to test it's suitability for VPN usage, but the latency isn't really good enough - I'm generally getting 300+ms because Virgin Media routes via HE instead of StarHub (I did some testing for you if you remember).

    200ms or below would be perfect, I get about 175ms to the West Coast of the US and that's perfectly usable for VPN from my perspective.

    On terms of download speed, I haven't done extensive testing, but on a couple of occasions I've got a solid 3MB/s over VPN.

  • rds100rds100 Member
    edited January 2013

    @Nekki he could probably influence only the route from SG to UK. VirginMedia choosing a braindead (or the rather - the cheapest for them) route from UK to SG is not something you would be able to change easily.

  • JacobJacob Member
    edited January 2013

    @Kenshin I know the DC we use have NTT Mix, and that helps greatly I see 220ms all the time. <--- if this is the answer you wanted...

  • KenshinKenshin Member

    @Melita said: You should aim for 150ms ~ 250ms latency btw :)

    @Nekki said: 200ms or below would be perfect, I get about 175ms to the West Coast of the US and that's perfectly usable for VPN from my perspective.

    <200ms is not possible, fiber distance mandates it'll be at least 200ms and above.

    @Nekki said: I'd definitely be interested - I already purchased one of your plans to test it's suitability for VPN usage, but the latency isn't really good enough - I'm generally getting 300+ms because Virgin Media routes via HE instead of StarHub (I did some testing for you if you remember).

    Yes I remember, sadly it's a pain to adjust incoming routes when every other ISP in asia loves USA bound routes. Though my question would be, how many more people in UK would be like yourself and interested in Asia bound routes, that's my major worry, since I really don't know how much Asia can offer EU, and EU can offer Asia.

    @Nekki said: On terms of download speed, I haven't done extensive testing, but on a couple of occasions I've got a solid 3MB/s over VPN.

    Ideally I'm targeting 2MB/sec at least constantly, which is quite achievable in USA but somehow to/from EU can't stablized at 2MB/sec.

    @Jacob said: I know the DC we use have NTT Mix, and that helps greatly I see 220ms all the time. <--- if this is the answer you wanted...

    Nope, I'm doing market research on demand from both EU and Asia, not latency checks.

  • gbshousegbshouse Member, Host Rep
    edited January 2013

    Better work thru AP-EU link via Russia/Middle East (like Tata) and enable possibility of setting up BGP sessions/peerings :)

  • ErawanArifNugrohoErawanArifNugroho Member

    From Indonesia to Singapore, I can get 40ms. Very nice.
    So, if there's an Asian provider with good support like you, I will surely add them to my top list :)

  • KenshinKenshin Member

    @ErawanArifNugroho said: From Indonesia to Singapore, I can get 40ms. Very nice.

    So, if there's an Asian provider with good support like you, I will surely add them to my top list :)

    Lol, thanks. But the question is for you, do Indonesian users need good ID to EU bandwidth/routes?

  • ErawanArifNugrohoErawanArifNugroho Member

    Some of Indonesian, don't even care about where they accessing the server :D
    Not much of Indonesian have the knowledge about routing, so, as long as they can access a website fast and eye catching, that's enough.

    While for me, I get a great routing from Indonesia ( Bandung and Tasikmalaya ) to Italy ( Prometeus ), which is usually less than 225ms :)

  • MelitaMelita Member, Host Rep
    edited January 2013

    Just now I tried to ping these targets (get these after quick reading offers thread):

    • MaidStone Studios, UK
    • Fast IT, Germany
    • OVH Roubaix, France
    • Ecatel, Netherlands
    • Ghostnet, Germany

    All of these gives around 180 ~190ms from Singapore. The problem is some of these routed through wrong outgoing upstreams in your network (going to USA), or you need to pull some upstream routes in order to get a desired incoming paths. Yes, all of these is possible with your network :)

    And 150ms is possible. I remember got one Germany player connected to my server with 150ms latency. And I can tell certainly there's a demand of EU players connecting to Singapore servers (in this case, a game server which I deploy using your VPS). Also, I got some of my friends using my private VPN from your VPS to play in EU servers.

    @Erawan, I got 40ms too (from Bali :) )

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran

    @Kenshin said: do Indonesian users need good ID to EU bandwidth/routes?

    I'd say users -- yes, servers -- not so much.

  • KenshinKenshin Member

    @rm_ said: I'd say users -- yes, servers -- not so much.

    I'm guessing that EU users want servers in Asia, and Asia users want content in EU. Very balanced usage. :D

  • gsrdgrdghdgsrdgrdghd Member

    @Melita said: I remember got one Germany player connected to my server with 150ms latency

    The ingame ping display is not always accurate.

    I get 16ms to the DTAG DECIX router and then 180ms more to SG, so 180ms could be theoretically possible.

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited January 2013

    @Kenshin said: EU users want servers in Asia

    Do they? On what are you basing this opinion?

  • DalCompDalComp Member
    edited January 2013

    @ErawanArifNugroho said: Some of Indonesian, don't even care about where they accessing the server :D

    This. +1

    @ErawanArifNugroho said: While for me, I get a great routing from Indonesia ( Bandung and Tasikmalaya ) to Italy ( Prometeus ), which is usually less than 225ms :)

    Sadly, pinging Prometeus test IP gives me >350ms (Jakarta). USB stick - wireless connection does matter, I suppose?

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited January 2013

    @DalComp said: Wireless connection does matter, I suppose?

    You mean GPRS/3G or WiFi? If former, then absolutely, with 3G it is common to have 50-100ms ping before even getting to the first router at your mobile provider.

  • KenshinKenshin Member

    @rm_ said: Do they? On what are you basing this opinion?

    Have a few corporate clients whose main business in EU are expanding to SG. SingTel/Starhub quoted them an arm and a leg for latency optimized EU routing cause they'll be hosting servers for local staff, and EU staff will pull from SG. If there's enough demand in the market I'm considering buying more capacity than what the customer needs.

    @DalComp said: Sadly, pinging Prometeus test IP gives me >350ms (Jakarta). Wireless connection does matter, I suppose?

    Do a traceroute and deduct the latency from your first hop (to wireless router).

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran

    @Kenshin said: a few corporate clients

    !=

    @Kenshin said: EU users want

  • ErawanArifNugrohoErawanArifNugroho Member
    edited January 2013

    Using Speedy, I can get 225ms to Italy
    And using Three usb modem, I can get 240ms to my blog
    Using Telkomsel, it's 300ms :|

  • DalCompDalComp Member
    edited January 2013

    @rm_ said: You mean GPRS/3G or WiFi?

    3G

    @Kenshin said: Do a traceroute and deduct the latency from your first hop (to wireless router).

    That comes to 300ms.

    @ErawanArifNugroho said: Using Speedy, I can get 225ms to Italy

    And using Three usb modem, I can get 240ms to my blog
    Using Telkomsel, it's 300ms :|

    With AHA/Esia.
    51ms to first hop, totalling 351ms to Prometeus.

  • KenshinKenshin Member

    @rm_ said: !=

    Thus why I created this thread to get confirmation from the people who actually are in EU and know the scene, :)

  • gsrdgrdghdgsrdgrdghd Member
    edited January 2013

    @DalComp said: totalling 351ms to Prometeus.

    Is that from a OAH VPS? I get 200ms from Prometeus to the test IP:

    HOST: it1                         Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
  1.|-- 194.14.179.252             0.0%    10    0.1   0.1   0.1   0.1   0.0
  2.|-- gw-cdlan-2.prometeus.cdla  0.0%    10    0.3   0.4   0.3   0.5   0.1
  3.|-- te3-1-350.milano52.mil.se  0.0%    10    0.5   0.6   0.5   1.0   0.2
  4.|-- 62.157.251.53              0.0%    10   18.4  20.0  18.4  21.5   1.0
  5.|-- 217.239.38.30              0.0%    10  237.2 241.7 237.2 245.5   2.3
  6.|-- 80.157.130.186             0.0%    10  189.8 189.6 189.6 189.8   0.1
  7.|-- core-2.v33.ntp.sg.gs       0.0%    10  187.8 188.0 186.7 189.7   1.0
  8.|-- ovz-01.oneasiahost.com     0.0%    10  187.4 187.5 187.3 188.6   0.4
  9.|-- dns1.oneasiahost.com      10.0%    10  188.5 188.6 188.5 188.7   0.1

    170ms total latency via DTAG

  • KenshinKenshin Member

    @gsrdgrdghd said: Is that from a OAH VPS? I get 200ms from Prometeus to the test IP:

    I think he's referring to his ID connection directly, not us.

  • DalCompDalComp Member
    edited January 2013

    @gsrdgrdghd said: Is that from a OAH VPS?

    @Kenshin said: I think he's referring to his ID connection directly, not us.

    Direct Indonesian connection. Sorry if it causes confusion to OAH services.

  • KenshinKenshin Member

    I just remembered another reason I had the idea why EU users would want servers. Asia doesn't have much content so I didn't think EU users would pull content so I assume it would be hosting servers instead to serve Asia user base.

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited January 2013

    @Kenshin said: I just remembered another reason I had the idea why EU users would want servers. Asia doesn't have much content so I didn't think EU users would pull content so I assume it would be hosting servers instead to serve Asia user base.

    Well duh congratulations on remembering the single most important reason anyone abroad even buys your service. :) Yeah, EU content providers/publishers want to purchase Asia servers to serve their Asia user base. But I thought this thread was about whether or not EU users want low ping to Asia servers?

    Asia home user connections <=> EU DCs
    This needs low ping, sure; a lot of websites which are popular worldwide are hosted in those EU DCs.

    but

    Asia DCs <=> EU home user connections
    Does this need low ping? really? While nice, not a necessity. No one will host their worldwide-popular website in an Asia DC, not if they need to target EU and US users.

  • KenshinKenshin Member

    s/users/customers/ my bad I'm a provider so my users was refering to my customers not just eyeballs. Usage in my mind for EU customers was more of hosting than vpn due to content location.

    In particular I was thinking that if my location could create balanced latency and speed regardless of location of the eyeballs with the addition of a good EU route I'll have something interesting for global reach.

  • jaakkajaakka Member

    Well, i play poker via HK EDIS VPS. Singapore is just too far from my perspective.
    But many EU poker players have vps in SG or HK.
    Just better margins.
    Advertise on poker player forums.

    I have the option to use two upstreams:

    First example:
    1 r9-ae2-0-Sln-Song-SE.linxtelecom.net (212.47.201.190) 5.899 ms 6.881 ms 6.009 ms
    MPLS Label=749253 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1
    2 r9-ae4-0-Sto-TC-SE.linxtelecom.net (212.47.201.193) 6.874 ms 5.955 ms 5.888 ms
    3 64.209.96.225 (64.209.96.225) 5.818 ms 12.816 ms 5.833 ms
    4 ae10.csr1.ARN3.gblx.net (67.17.74.41) [AS 3549] 5.971 ms * *
    5 po6-50G.ar4.LAX1.gblx.net (67.16.129.202) [AS 3549] 166.270 ms 166.704 ms 166.754 ms
    6 PCCW-GLOBAL-INC.TenGigabitEthernet8-1.1200.ar4.LAX1.gblx.net (64.211.83.226) [AS 3549] 162.227 ms 164.464 ms 163.282 ms
    7 TenGE13-3.br01.sin01.pccwbtn.net (63.218.162.165) [AS 3491] 350.834 ms 339.999 ms 340.645 ms
    8 63.216.152.187 (63.216.152.187) [AS 3491] 340.120 ms 340.189 ms 339.674 ms
    9 core-1.v33.ntp.sg.gs (203.175.175.37) [AS 24482] 354.611 ms 343.555 ms 340.031 ms
    10 oah-02.oneasiahost.com (116.251.208.251) [AS 24482] 339.373 ms 338.086 ms 368.789 ms
    11 cp.oneasiahost.com (116.251.208.203) [AS 24482] 339.401 ms 385.401 ms 340.872 ms

    Second option:

    5 5 ms 4 ms 4 ms kjj-sr2-xe-2-3-0-0.ee.estpak.ee [217.159.159.209
    ]
    6 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms noe-bb1-xe-10-1-1-0.ee.estpak.ee [90.190.134.196
    ]
    7 40 ms 40 ms 37 ms ams-bb1-xe-0-3-0-0.nl.estpak.ee [194.126.123.14]

    8 43 ms 41 ms 40 ms TenGE13-2.br02.ams01.pccwbtn.net [195.69.145.37]

    9 383 ms 383 ms 382 ms 63.216.152.186
    10 386 ms 385 ms 382 ms core-2.v33.ntp.sg.gs [203.175.175.38]
    11 379 ms 379 ms 379 ms oah-01.oneasiahost.com [116.251.208.250]
    12 382 ms 382 ms 382 ms dns1.oneasiahost.com [116.251.208.201]

  • unusedunused Member

    @jaakka - curious, shouldn't hong kong be further away for you? What does a trace to your edis look like?

  • jaakkajaakka Member

    No, it goes through TeliaSonera from Estonia(Tallinn)-FrankFurt-Paris-Singapore-HK

    7 prs-bb1-link.telia.net (80.91.246.156) 18.072 ms 18.060 ms prs-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.246.160) 16.805 ms
    8 snge-b1-link.telia.net (80.91.247.55) 274.702 ms snge-b1-link.telia.net (80.91.247.65) 280.826 ms snge-b1-link.telia.net (80.91.247.55) 284.180 ms
    9 hnk-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.149) 280.802 ms 280.850 ms hnk-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.151) 280.581 ms
    10 hostvirtual-ic-300085-hnk-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.66.102) 281.914 ms 279.190 ms 281.008 ms
    11 12-208-255-158.static.edis.at (158.255.208.12) 278.425 ms 278.411 ms 280.676 ms

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