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About "Bad Customers"!
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About "Bad Customers"!

armindsarminds Member, Provider

I have faced many times when a customer has an issue with a VPS or doesn't like something related to our service, he directly files a dispute with the payment gateway or credit card company without even asking for refund through our help desk system.

Most providers know the headache of dealing with this issue, but when a customer prefers this over the easy "no questions asked refund policy", what can we call him?

Also, how do you differentiate a bad customer from a legitimate one from your point of view?

ARMINDS ... empowering people’s minds!
Affordable Fully Managed SSD Cached Xen VPS @ arminds.com

Comments

  • I'm not a provider but I know maxmind makes some scammers crazy

    Thanked by 1arminds
  • armindsarminds Member, Provider

    @ericls said:
    I'm not a provider but I know maxmind makes some scammers crazy

    Actually, our last order of this type passed maxmind! But still wasn't patient enough to ask for refund. He just filed a dispute with PayPal including all insults in the world :)

    ARMINDS ... empowering people’s minds!
    Affordable Fully Managed SSD Cached Xen VPS @ arminds.com

  • You can try FraudRecord which allows you to evaluate the history of your customers (contributed by other providers) when they sign up.

    Thanked by 1starservices
  • samblingsambling Member
    edited January 2016

    arminds said: I have faced many times when a customer has an issue with a VPS or doesn't like something related to our service, he directly files a dispute with the payment gateway or credit card company without even asking for refund through our help desk system.

    Are you sure you're providing a good service?? The vast majority of people we had requesting a refund asked first in the client area (which we honoured because of our money day back guarantee). Make sure you aren't leading customers to expect your service to be something that it is not. Make your marketing clear. Make your refund policy and process clear.

    Further to this: FraudRecord and Maxmind work very well in tandem. That will take out the vast majority of fraud if used correctly.

    https://o0.nz - A free and fast image host. Powered by a Bunny and a Pony!

  • jarjar Provider

    Despite how a lot of people here feel about it, this is exactly why I use fraudrecord. If another host that I trust (not just anyone out there) has reported a customer of unjustified chargebacks, I'll just refund and we'll part ways.

    On one hand you shouldn't have a lot of chargebacks if you don't make promises you can't keep, your product is good, and you have decent fraud prevention measures.

    On the other hand, you can't let your relationship with your payment gateway be dependent on a dice roll, you have to be proactive.

    Thanked by 1vpsGOD
  • armindsarminds Member, Provider

    Thanks guys for your feedback.

    @sambling , we have 30 days no questions asked money back guarantee as well. We show it every where on the homepage, pricing page and in the features page besides the refund policy page.

    For the quality of service, we don't market something that we don't have, we sell HDD and SSD Cached plans and not market for example SSD Cached as an SSD only service.

    Also, we have fully managed service provided for free, and most customers who face any issues ask for support and we help them happily :)

    @jarland , thanks a lot for the advice. However, please define proactive in this case. For example, we provide free full management, 30 days quick full refund guarantee and a nice WHMCS support system with quick response time. So, if there is anything else regarding disputes or charge backs we can do to be more proactive I appreciate if you can highlight it.

    ARMINDS ... empowering people’s minds!
    Affordable Fully Managed SSD Cached Xen VPS @ arminds.com

  • @arminds He wasn't meaning that your management or monitoring is not 'proactive' enough, he was referring to the amount of checks (be it manual or automatic) performed at the time of the order coming through, or being marked as paid.

    If your relationship with your payment gateway becomes rocky, your business is hanging on by a thread.

    Thanked by 2jar arminds

    AboveClouds • UK Company • UK Datacentre • UK Customer Support

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  • When it comes to bad customers its really hard to prevent it you just got to take it.

    Money can make people crazy sometimes.

    FraudRecord and strict reviewing of new customers could help alot in the long run.

    Typical guy alexneo.net

    Peering AS135103

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider
    edited January 2016

    Simply put, if a service is provided and they file a dispute/chargeback with the payment provider this is theft. No matter how you look at it the person just stole service from you and you should report them to both Maxmind and FraudRecord for doing so.

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need backup space? Check out BackupDragon
  • @KuJoe said:
    Simply put, if a service is provided and they file a dispute/chargeback with the payment provider this is theft. No matter how you look at it the person just stole service from you and you should report them to both Maxmind and FraudRecord for doing so.

    and then start opening threads here and there "scam stay away" ...

    is it worth it ?

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    @Caster said:
    is it worth it ?

    Posting it on a public forum can be against the law in certain countries which is why I recommended reporting it to Maxmind and FraudRecord so other hosts can be aware of it without having to worry about privacy concerns.

    Thanked by 1linuxthefish
    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need backup space? Check out BackupDragon
  • @KuJoe said:
    Posting it on a public forum can be against the law in certain countries which is why I recommended reporting it to Maxmind and FraudRecord so other hosts can be aware of it without having to worry about privacy concerns.

    yep but overall it **does affect ** somehow your reputation to a extent and 99% doesn't give a crap about law.

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    @Caster said:
    yep but overall it **does affect ** somehow your reputation to a extent and 99% doesn't give a crap about law.

    If a host publicly posted client info on the forum they would be ridiculed pretty badly here and lose rep, maybe even more-so than the client.

    Thanked by 2Clouvider arminds
    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need backup space? Check out BackupDragon
  • @KuJoe said:
    If a host publicly posted client info on the forum they would be ridiculed pretty badly here and lose rep, maybe even more-so than the client.

    I don't mean it like that way. well say the client fakes some stuff about the provider and posts on wht and etc . people unknowingly thinks the op is telling the truth as they have no idea of reality .

    and as usual the why thread gets the providers comments and all drama but ultimately the thread is not renamed or deleted which does affect a reputation.

    say when you want to buy a stuff from a website you do research some stuff about it before making the call and if you see threads like this in your search result 99% time you don't bother even opening the thread to look into it and search for another website. ultimately losing future clients.

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    @Caster most legitimate forums will change the thread subject if there's lack of proof or proof contradicting the subject.

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need backup space? Check out BackupDragon
  • @KuJoe said:
    Caster most legitimate forums will change the thread subject if there's lack of proof or proof contradicting the subject.

    not everyone is let with good mods.

  • Am I too paranoid for saying this is an advertisement disguised as a complaint?

    arminds said: @sambling , we have 30 days no questions asked money back guarantee as well. We show it every where on the homepage, pricing page and in the features page besides the refund policy page.

    For the quality of service, we don't market something that we don't have, we sell HDD and SSD Cached plans and not market for example SSD Cached as an SSD only service.

    Also, we have fully managed service provided for free, and most customers who face any issues ask for support and we help them happily :)

    @jarland , thanks a lot for the advice. However, please define proactive in this case. For example, we provide free full management, 30 days quick full refund guarantee and a nice WHMCS support system with quick response time. So, if there is anything else regarding disputes or charge backs we can do to be more proactive I appreciate if you can highlight it.

    Go give Vultr(referral) a try. | GNU/Linux http://debian.org

  • Mahfuz_SS_EHLMahfuz_SS_EHL Member, Provider

    Requesting a Refund & Filling a Dispute - these two things are different prospects ! The First one is polite manner & second was impolite. Whoever chooses the second & gets a report in FraudRecord, I would of course keep a distance from him.

    AlphaSSL Revocation Issue is being investigated.

  • raindog308raindog308 Moderator
    edited January 2016

    Anyone who opens a PP dispute without first trying to resolve via ticket is a scammer by definition.

    If the host doesn't respond, denies (and it's a legitimate request), etc. then proceeding to PP is fine, but you have to ticket first.

    PP should really require that step - i.e., if the subscriber didn't try to resolve with the merchant first, they should require that step. I'm not a provider and have never opened a hosting-related PP dispute, so I don't know if they do.

    Thanked by 3GM2015 miTgiB arminds

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • WebProjectWebProject Member, Provider
    edited January 2016

    We had one of them customers from Australia, passed all verification without ID we let him in to our node, never had a single downtime or abuse and issue as we make a special service for him by asking if he wish to have some technical support in unmanaged environment. After 8 months suddenly he filed chargeback through his cc company, as he made all payments through doppy Stripe and they simply ignored all our proof of the service has been delivered (or communication) and they completely ignored that he made payments for 8 months in row and managed to get refund for 6 months (180 days under CC protection) only as we pointed out.

    We have reported such lovely customer to FraudRecord.

    Thanked by 1arminds
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  • @raindog308 said:
    Anyone who opens a PP dispute without first trying to resolve via ticket is a scammer by definition.

    If the host doesn't respond, denies (and it's a legitimate request), etc. then proceeding to PP is fine, but you have to ticket first.

    PP should really require that step - i.e., if the subscriber didn't try to resolve with the merchant first, they should require that step. I'm not a provider and have never opened a hosting-related PP dispute, so I don't know if they do.

    Never tried FortaTrust before? They're the only provider that I've had to chargeback on. . ($450 on a dedicated server that I never ordered)

  • raindog308 said: PP should really require that step - i.e., if the subscriber didn't try to resolve with the merchant first, they should require that step. I'm not a provider and have never opened a hosting-related PP dispute, so I don't know if they do.

    No they do not, but this sounds very reasonable, and also easy to automate, so PP will never do anything making life easier for anyone.

    Thanked by 2GM2015 arminds
    Hostigation High Resource Hosting - SolusVM KVM VPS / Proxmox OpenVZ VPS- Low Cost Comodo SSL Certificates
  • @KuJoe said:
    Simply put, if a service is provided and they file a dispute/chargeback with the payment provider this is theft. No matter how you look at it the person just stole service from you and you should report them to both Maxmind and FraudRecord for doing so.

    I also call that fraud as when the last customer did that and tried to claim they didn't get the service when they did I consider that also fraud as for a real life example if you submit a false or "fraudulent" which is what fraud means false/untrue police report the police will take you to jail for filing that false/fraudulent police report as it is basically saying something that isn't true is true when it is not.

    Thanked by 2KuJoe arminds

    CubeData FraudRecord Module: https://cubedata.net/fraudrecord OpenNebula module: https://cubedata.net/opennebula now for blesta & whmcs

  • armindsarminds Member, Provider

    @GM2015 said:
    Am I too paranoid for saying this is an advertisement disguised as a complaint?

    We don't need to do that. We regularly use our LET provider privileges to post our own ads bi weekly :) don't worry.

    ARMINDS ... empowering people’s minds!
    Affordable Fully Managed SSD Cached Xen VPS @ arminds.com

  • armindsarminds Member, Provider

    @KuJoe said:
    Posting it on a public forum can be against the law in certain countries which is why I recommended reporting it to Maxmind and FraudRecord so other hosts can be aware of it without having to worry about privacy concerns.

    Also for @caster , we don't even post client info or details publicly. I am just discussing cases and behaviors anonymously.

    ARMINDS ... empowering people’s minds!
    Affordable Fully Managed SSD Cached Xen VPS @ arminds.com

  • armindsarminds Member, Provider

    @raindog308 said:
    Anyone who opens a PP dispute without first trying to resolve via ticket is a scammer by definition.

    If the host doesn't respond, denies (and it's a legitimate request), etc. then proceeding to PP is fine, but you have to ticket first.

    PP should really require that step - i.e., if the subscriber didn't try to resolve with the merchant first, they should require that step. I'm not a provider and have never opened a hosting-related PP dispute, so I don't know if they do.

    No they don't.

    They hold the paid amount till the disputed transaction is refunded or resolved.

    Most disputes of intangible products goes in favor of the customer. "Unfortunately!"

    So we simply honor our money back guarantee after blaming the customer on the same dispute for not opening a ticket first.

    ARMINDS ... empowering people’s minds!
    Affordable Fully Managed SSD Cached Xen VPS @ arminds.com

  • @arminds you should note that in every business the customer is always right. In the customer's viewpoint you are a bad provider. :) And since you start a post with "bad customers" instead of: "How to make a better support" or "how to be more customer friendly", it seems that you're not customer oriented. Please note, that if they ask for refund it is 80% because of you or your doingness, and 20% of times because he is a scammer.

    If they file a dispute, something is broken with your service. You may did not provide what they wanted. Or your knowledge base is not easily accessible / searchable.

    You may not using transactional / followup emails.

    The less communication you're in with your customers the more likely they avoid communication with you, and you more likely become a bad provider in their eye.

    So make better PR with your customers. I am not in the VPS industry but in the VPN. In the last year I only had one dispute, because of the mentioned reasons. I had to introduce the followup emails.

    Actually I'm personally write those welcome emails to them. So what? you get 40 registration (or order a day). How much time does it take to send out 40 personal emails? :)

    I'm sending out something like this:

    Hi Joey! (I always call them by nickname, so my e-mail instantly become authentic)

    >

    It is so great to have you on board!
    I see that you're registered from Germany.

    >

    If you're trying to watch TV but you require [country] IP address for that, then you're at the right place! :)
    Or If you're just upset about GEMA, I can feel with you. I also hate censorship.

    >

    Can you tell me about what are you trying to solve with the VPN?

    >

    Best wishes,
    signature

    Sometimes I have to send out 40 of this. It takes me 3 minutes to write one. (lookup IP, is it a home connection? he may want to solve the two mentioned problems. Is it a college address? He may want to get thru the port limitations.)

    40x3 minutes = 2 hours
    With a 2 hours * 50 USD hourly rate it is 100 USD. Usually I pay 3 dollar for a registration (for Facebook Ads, AdWords etc...), who is not yet a paying customer just someone who is interested in getting a VPN. Another 2.5 USD / registration to ensure that they become a paying customer is not that much. :)
    Before that I had to spent an average of 10 dollar / getting paying customer, who pays 5 USD monthly for the service.

    Thanked by 1colingpt
  • hoczaj said: (I always call them by nickname, so my e-mail instantly become authentic)

    And creepy ...

    hoczaj said: It is so great to have you on board!

    Sounds like they just got a job at your company, not just a VPN.

    hoczaj said: If you're trying to watch TV but you require [country] IP address for that, then you're at the right place! :)

    Supposing the customer isn't though, that makes them wonder if they're still in the right place though, doesn't it?

    hoczaj said: Can you tell me about what are you trying to solve with the VPN?

    No!

  • hoczajhoczaj Member
    edited January 2016

    @singsing this is your sole opinion, and shows that you're not my targeted audience.

    My customers find it nice, and almost always thanks for showing interest.

    I promote my VPN service for home people, and for college students.

    They just have a limitation problem they want to solve. So my marketing targeting them, not those creepy want-to-anonymous guys who want to hide some nasty stuffs going on. :)

    So yeah, obviously these kind of approach wouldn't work on those guys, but they also know what they're looking for, and they wouldn't click on my ads.

    But I assume that the OP isn't looking for shady guys but legitimate customers, so this kind of approach could work, like it is working for a lot of cool startups, like, hubstaff, pusher, etc.

    And also since I use tracking I usually know why they have registered. (Because if he clicked on the AD that gives a solution for watching netflix then usually thats why they are here, and there will be no wondering)
    And since it was just a sample mail that I wrote in few minutes, as I said it is not a template. ;)

  • @hoczaj said:
    arminds you should note that in every business the customer is always right.

    in every business there are always customers who are out to take advantage of you. they are not always right.

    Thanked by 2doughmanes arminds
  • hoczajhoczaj Member
    edited January 2016

    @seaeagle said:
    in every business there are always customers who are out to take advantage of you. they are not always right.

    The customer is someone who pays for your service. Scammers and thieves usually not considered "as your customers". :) (or should not considered as customers. As you do not consider crawler bots as website visitors too)

    So a customer is always right. but once you start spending your time on fighting thieves, you lose focus on your main goal: giving service for customers.

    Look at those services, where you always have to type a captcha, without ever "failing at login". Throttling is acceptable if necessary like on multiple failed login attempts, but messing with your customers is not. :)

  • armindsarminds Member, Provider

    @hoczaj you have a point. But you weren't fair assuming that we provide bad customer service or not communicating with our customers. If we do so then how can we provide fully managed service?

    The case I referred to is totally a "bad customer", either he is a scammer or just an annoying impatient customer. Both are so welcomed to cancel and request refund.

    But opening a dispute with complaints about our service without even requesting support through our help desk system, is really annoying!

    ARMINDS ... empowering people’s minds!
    Affordable Fully Managed SSD Cached Xen VPS @ arminds.com

  • hoczaj said: My customers find it nice, and almost always thanks for showing interest.

    Reaching out to new signups to say hello is a classy move and I would actually be more likely to stay with a provider who did that. In a world of faceless, generic providers, things like this make you stand out.

    Thanked by 1arminds

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • hoczajhoczaj Member
    edited January 2016

    @arminds said:
    hoczaj you have a point. But you weren't fair assuming that we provide bad customer service or not communicating with our customers. If we do so then how can we provide fully managed service?

    The case I referred to is totally a "bad customer", either he is a scammer or just an annoying impatient customer. Both are so welcomed to cancel and request refund.

    But opening a dispute with complaints about our service without even requesting support through our help desk system, is really annoying!

    @Arminds sorry if I upset you. What I wanted to tell, that from that and those clients' viewpoint you are a bad provider, because of [random fact that upset them]. I did not want to say that you really are.

    But let's say. A customer expects some kind of interaction when he signs up. He did not receive it. Then he continues his journey, but unfamiliar with the control panel and couldn't find a video tutorial about how to use your service.
    For him, you are a bad provider. But hey, he is maybe not your audience then, or you're not giving enough information or interaction. :)

    But give it a twist. Let's say you welcomed him with a letter that seems authentic (or really authentic). Then you will become a "real person" for him, not just "another giant company that gives a fck about their tiny client".

    So he may be more willingly comply with your rules, that he just should send a ticket for a refund, not just go and file a dispute.

    How much dispute happening by the way? (You don't have to say exact numbers, but: 2 of 100 orders or something like that)

    It could be an indicator, that some kind of false marketing or wrong targeting happening. If the marketing/targeting is right, then maybe this audience expects more. Just dive into it, find it out and that will reduce the number of rude actions.

    Thanked by 1arminds
  • You will be surprised once you find out what your customers wants. It is usually never that you were thinking about and focusing on. :)

    When I did a survey I found out that:

    • they want friendly and quick support and
    • tutorial video on how to setup an openVPN client... well... I was like what the... for just downloading a file, starting installation next->next->next->next then unzip and copy paste a config.zip to the Program Files/openVPN/config... Does it really need a video tutorial?
      Yes, they want it, they need it. They are kids at college stuck with heavy port limitations, and know nothing about that "You need to run the application as administrator".
      Or worst, they are just housewives stuck in a foreign country and cannot watch their home country's IP TV from a german or UK or US ip address... :) They do really need these kind of support.
    Thanked by 2arminds colingpt
  • starservicesstarservices Member, Provider

    Have to admit I been pretty lucky with my customers, but when I started I learnt the hard way. Had a massive order carried it out 2 months later got a charge back. I always ask for proof of ID and address on orders over £140 now and ofc maxmind I am going to look into that fraudrecord some of you speak of to which sounds interesting.

    Thanked by 1arminds
  • armindsarminds Member, Provider

    Thanks a lot @hoczaj for the valuable information and advises. We will take that into consideration for sure. :)

    ARMINDS ... empowering people’s minds!
    Affordable Fully Managed SSD Cached Xen VPS @ arminds.com

  • aubertaubert Member
    edited January 2016

    @ericls said:
    I'm not a provider but I know maxmind makes some scammers crazy

    im not a provider but i know maxmind makes them lost some buyer which actually want to get anually plan or atleast monthly plan while they'd wanted to pay with bitcoin

    my handsomeness will long last until the apocalypse

  • aubert said: im not a provider but i know maxmind makes them lost some buyer which actually want to get anually plan or atleast monthly plan while they'd wanted to pay with bitcoin

    Paying with bitcoin only makes the client chargeback proof, not fraud proof. Open a ticket with the provider, communication is the key to success always.

    Thanked by 1arminds
    Hostigation High Resource Hosting - SolusVM KVM VPS / Proxmox OpenVZ VPS- Low Cost Comodo SSL Certificates
  • Problem is that the customer that signed up may not have actually owned that CC. If that is the case the real owner and their bank probably charged back to quite a few people. Have had that happen more than once, have even seen people send in fake IDs to try and be the person they are claiming to be.

    Maxmind and the other fraud companies help a lot, but even those aren't scam proof. When you get 20+ scam orders a week it creates a lot of extra work to try and sort the good from the bad, it is a NEVER ending process as a provider.

    Thanked by 1arminds
  • armindsarminds Member, Provider

    By the way, we found the customer on fraud record. Did almost the same with another provider :) FraudRecord is awesome :)

    ARMINDS ... empowering people’s minds!
    Affordable Fully Managed SSD Cached Xen VPS @ arminds.com

  • You cannot stop bad customers from coming in and you cannot stop the customers if you are asking for a refund if they qualify for a refund. Just make your refund policy very clear and strict to avoid such issues.

    Also, try embedding Maxmind, that would help you to weed out a lot of scammers.

    Thanked by 1arminds

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