Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Subscribe to our newsletter

Advertise on LowEndTalk.com

Latest LowEndBox Offers

    Providers 180 Days PayPal risk of refund request from clients. How to protect against it ?
    New on LowEndTalk? Please read our 'Community Rules' by clicking on it in the right menu!

    Providers 180 Days PayPal risk of refund request from clients. How to protect against it ?

    anthony1anthony1 Member
    edited January 2016 in General

    Hello,

    I have recently received $600 order from one single client. He made the paypal payment and I start working to provide the servers. It took me 2 days to fully provide the order. 5 days later he placed another identical order and made another $600 payment. Minutes later PayPal blocked both first and last $600 payments (total $1200) for this reason:

    "You have received a payment that we believe may not have been authorized by
    the PayPal account holder. Here are the details of the transaction we are
    investigating(...)"

    I have looked over the client details and paypal account and they are totally different (name,address,email,etc). The client told me that paypal account belongs to his sister and he got his account limited due to some dispute and the problem will be solved in a few days. Later on the client asked me to refund the 2 x $600 payments because he rather use different payment method which I didn't because I need to see what paypal have to say. I have tried to contact the paypal account owner using the paypal email used for the payment but its not responding.

    I have provided all the details asked by paypal. Now I'm waiting for PayPal response.

    I need to know how VPS providers are protected against such situations or in general against 180 Days PayPal Dispute Filing Window. As I know intangible goods and services PayPal disputes are the most high risk products and they rarely in the favor of VPS providers. I wonder how big providers protect themselves against similar situations ? I should not provide any services to the clients that paypal / client area details didn't match ? Should I ask for proof of ID ? If so, all this will actually really help and PayPal will indeed close the case in my favor ? All I know is that when I initially ordered one dedicated server on my provider he didn't provide the server until I send them my scanned ID and paypal email/name to match the their website registered email/name. More then this when I have used another paypal account to make a payment they didn't accept the payment and I had to call them to explain them what's with the new paypal account payment. The question is all this really help as proofs to win the paypal dispute ?

    Thanked by 1rokok
    «1

    Comments

    • HostingSpecialistsHostingSpecialists Member, Provider

      Are you using Maxmind or any fraud prevention in WHMCS?

    • AFAIK,there's no way

      my handsomeness will long last until the apocalypse

    • Shouldn't have believed that weak sister excuse

      Thanked by 1ATHK
    • @HostingSpecialists said:
      Are you using Maxmind or any fraud prevention in WHMCS?

      Yes I do but its set very high as I never though will ever help.

    • WSCallumWSCallum Member, Provider

      Providers protect themselves by not processing such order until you have ran checks, most providers will usually ask for proof of ID if details don't add up, that's something you should of done and checked before processing those orders.

      WebSound - Affordable, reliable hosting solutions
      UK SSD Web & Reseller Hosting

    • @classy said:
      Shouldn't have believed that weak sister excuse

      Are you saying that the client is using stolen paypal account ? With 5 days consecutive payments never seen by the paypal account owner ?

    • "You have received a payment that we believe may not have been authorized by the PayPal account holder. Here are the details of the transaction we are investigating(...)"

      Perhaps proxy detection can help? That way it'll show they're making the payment via their home ISP.

      Thanked by 1linuxthefish
    • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Top Provider

      You need to employ multiple factors, never trust what maxmind tells you in isolation, apply common sense, if something feels wrong it probably is.

      Even then you cant protect yourself 100%, it is just not possible, when you do get a charge back PLEASE make the first thing you do calling paypal and talking to someone.

      Thanked by 1mpkossen

      Had enough of the scams on lowendbox, lowendtalk is now being infiltrated by corruption so I have chosen to make an low end exit #lexit for now - you can find me HERE

    • anthony1anthony1 Member
      edited January 2016

      @WSCallum said:
      Providers protect themselves by not processing such order until you have ran checks, most providers will usually ask for proof of ID if details don't add up, that's something you should of done and checked before processing those orders.

      This client already made a smaller($300) card payment order few days ago and it passed the card processor fraud checks. He used the same name/surname for CC as the one used for paypal payment.

    • HostingSpecialistsHostingSpecialists Member, Provider

      @AnthonySmith said:
      You need to employ multiple factors, never trust what maxmind tells you in isolation, apply common sense, if something feels wrong it probably is.

      Even then you cant protect yourself 100%, it is just not possible, when you do get a charge back PLEASE make the first thing you do calling paypal and talking to someone.

      Yes, talking to PayPal via the phone increases your chances a lot. Don't really understand why but I've won several fake unauthorised chargebacks by calling them.

    • anthony1anthony1 Member
      edited January 2016

      @HostingSpecialists said:
      Yes, talking to PayPal via the phone increases your chances a lot. Don't really understand why but I've won several fake unauthorised chargebacks by calling them.

      With what arguments, I think its difficult for intangible goods/ services. What have you said to them ? I need some tips to use it when I call them tomorrow. Things like "I already provide the servers to the client" with server deploy email screenshoots proofs, etc ?

    • HostingSpecialistsHostingSpecialists Member, Provider

      @anthony1 said:
      With what arguments, I think its difficult for intangible goods/ services. What have you said to them ? I need some tips to use it when I call them tomorrow. Things like "I already provide the servers to the client" with server deploy email screenshoots proofs, etc ?

      Yeah, well generally calling them and explaining the story helps a lot. I guess they will take your side more often if you physically talk to them on the phone instead of via email. It has more of an authentic feel.

      On the phone, offer to send them email screenshots, include the timestamp that the "New dedicated server information" was sent etc.

      Explain to the person that if PayPal refunds the buyer, you've lost X amount of money because theres no way to get the money back etc.

      Some of this may do nothing to change their mind but it's worth a shot.

      Thanked by 1Mridul
    • WHTWHT Member

      You could not be 100% protected. Everyone can make a chargeback from his bank and paypal will take your money. This is not fair but there is "still" not a good alternative of paypal.

      On the end of all the provider will louse and not the asshole who have typed his password to a hacker.

    • Not surprising providers like bitcoin...

      Thanked by 2linuxthefish Mathias

      For LET support, please visit the interim support desk.

    • Follow this next time when you process order >500$:

      1. Check manually the entered address, look up in map or possible land mark. If this doesnt exist avoid at all cost.

      2. Check the host ip . Check for residential ip.

      3. Send the invoice manually. If the name to the sender doesnt matches. Cancel it.

      4. Do a Phone verification. Call them not SMS. Search the phone no. on directory for possible detection of buy-to-use no.'s.

    • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider
      edited January 2016

      For high dollar orders like that a lot of providers request a copy of the credit card (front and back) along with photo ID. If they will not or cannot provide those things than refund their payments and move on. If they do a chargeback on the credit card, you will most likely lose unless you have a copy of the credit card or a signature (which they signed in person).

      -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
      Need backup space? Check out BackupDragon
    • KuJoe said: For high dollar orders like that a lot of providers request a copy of the credit card

      As long as the WHMCS attachments folder isn't open to the public like GVH!

      Thanked by 1raindog308
    • Don't get too hung up on it, some orders will just turn out to be fraud and will have to be refunded or will get disputed. You can always use the IP address and node space for another client, so try not to concentrate too much on how much PayPal's policies suck, as hard as it is.

      FraudRecord, @black's proxy detection and checking all the details manually after each order will cut out 99% of this crap. Try not to accept orders that you know are not good, for it seems as soon as you accept one order that "might not be 100% legit", all the fraudsters friend soon sign up as they know they can get away with it!

      I always requested proof of address and scan of the CC for orders my CC processor accepted but I thought were fraudulent, deleting it after the 2nd successful payment. Maybe I should have kept this information for longer considering @KuJoe's advice, and that most disputes happened like 4 or 5 months later - I guess people don't check their card statements.

    • adxnadxn Member, Provider

      Stolen pp accounts for sure! I would have refunded the whole amount and reported him to Fraudrecord and move on with my life because paypal is a cunt!

      Sincerely,

      Shubhankar From Wuugly

    • Best one I've had with PP is the EU money laundering law. Lock my account at €2500. I can pay bills get chargebacks and they wonder why. Hmmmmm cleaver

      Different.

    • VirMachVirMach Member, Provider, Top Provider

      First off, this isn't a PayPal thing. A lot of times PayPal will actually end up preventing a chargeback from happening by facilitating good communication through disputes and cases and they handle it before it reaches an unauthorized claim.

      There's honestly no way in certain situations for virtual goods. You just have to trust in your customers to not be assholes. There's even certain situations where it's definitely not fraud, but you'll lose anyway.

      I had a customer once that we did some design work for - a few thousand dollars worth. Also did hosting for him, etc. Then exact 6 months later a few days before the last day to chargeback, he had filed a dispute for all the payments. He used multiple cards, so he had different companies and such. He did travel a lot as well so it definitely didn't look good on our end. However, American Express decided in our favor for the largest $1000 payment. Visa and Mastercard completely ignored all the details, I assume, since we lost a bunch of the smaller payments on those. We had the same amount of evidence on all the payments. Maybe they pay more attention to larger payments?

      Moral of the story is to just build the chargeback costs into your business model, and if you can't afford to lose it, don't accept it through PayPal/CC when it's a large portion of your income from one person.

      Thanked by 1Mridul
    • Have any orders over $100 require picture ID.

      Works pretty damn well.

      Thanked by 1doughmanes

      wget https://s.flamz.pw/dl/bench.sh && bash bench.sh

      curl https://s.flamz.pw/analytics/bench/stats.php

    • anthony1anthony1 Member
      edited January 2016

      Try not to accept orders that you know are not good, for it seems as soon as you accept one order that "might not be 100% legit", all the fraudsters friend soon sign up as they know they can get away with it!

      I just checked the last months bulk order payments and they all come from Bangladesh clients using totally different US paypal account to pay their invoices. I have around 4-5 clients like this with total invoice values over 5K. Maybe I just need to withdraw everything and close the paypal account because dark days may come..

    • cociucociu Member, Provider

      anthony1 said: Maybe I just need to withdraw everything and close the paypal account because dark days may come..

      lol this is not a solution , finnaly you will be with a negative balance and verry difficult to have in the future a new account with paypal (not imposible)

    • @cociu said:
      finnaly you will be with a negative balance and verry difficult to have in the future a new account with paypal

      I have paid alot of $$ for dedicated servers/IPs to make those VPSs. Datacenters will never refund my payments. It would be a financial disaster, I will not have the amount to cover the big loses.

    • cociucociu Member, Provider
      edited January 2016

      anthony1 said: I have paid alot of $$ for dedicated servers/IPs to make those VPSs. Datacenters will never refund my payments. It would be a financial disaster, I will not have the amount to cover the big loses.

      really understand your situation , BUT way you have not thinck in this when you have started to sell to all idiots ? All we like $$$$ but somethimes is better to sleap !

      Finnaly you will have a negative balance , paypal will sell your acount to a bussines wich is dedicated to recuperate this credits .... and finnaly you will pay , except if you are in a exotic county (romania was 5 years agoo a exotic country regarding paypal but now ... )

    • Resell the server. Profit !

      time wasters please dont comment as we are a serious buyer
      Programmer trying to do Logo Designs

    • cociucociu Member, Provider
      edited January 2016

      I will give you a truth example , i have a client from here wich is pay arrownd 2700$ /mo (if want this client to be public his nick name i am agree ) and hi have a good reputation in LET i know him about 1 year and until now i accept only banck transfer for all his payment . so if is agree to be public hi can confirm this . And this was to avoid any problems !!!

    • cociu said: I will give you a truth example , i have a client from here wich is pay arrownd 2700$ /mo (if want this client to be public his nick name i am agree ) and hi have a good reputation in LET i know him about 1 year and until now i accept only banck transfer for all his payment . so if is agree to be public hi can confirm this . And this was to avoid any problems !!!

      Same here. We asks for Bank transfers for anything over $250 here. ($250 is a big amount in Sri Lanka)

      time wasters please dont comment as we are a serious buyer
      Programmer trying to do Logo Designs

    • It's pretty standard to make bank transfer for UK companies. Internet payment gateways like paypal makes people lazy.

      Thanked by 2Nic_20TBSSD Jacob

      Go give Vultr(referral) a try. | GNU/Linux http://debian.org

    • I wonder if this type of single large transaction would be worth going through some sort of escrow service. The fees might be prohibitive, though.

    • JacobJacob Member
      edited January 2016

      For an order of this amount, you should have had verbal (face to face or telephone) communication with the customer, find out a bit more about him.. just to put any potential doubts at ease.

      AboveClouds • UK Company • UK Datacentre • UK Customer Support

      High Performance Pure SSD Cloud Hosting with a personal touch

    • tarek4webtarek4web Member
      edited January 2016

      100% sure that PayPal will cut the money from your account and refund the buyer

    • WebProjectWebProject Member, Provider

      @FlamesRunner said:
      Have any orders over $100 require picture ID.

      Works pretty damn well.

      It also upset a lot of customer, some scam people just don't bother to reply - I personally verify every order.

      VPS Price Match Guarantee on: All our range of DDOS protected XEN-HVM VPS Plans
      Are you looking for best price for self-managed VPS? See WebProVPS website for more details.
    • timnboystimnboys Member
      edited January 2016

      I actually won my paypal dispute recently by talking to paypal on the phone as to be honest when something like that happens I don't do email I talk to a human on the phone with paypal tell them all the info I have including sending screenshots of the whmcs billing panel and highlighting the entries using the snipping tool on win7 and above and also taking screenshots of the virtualizor control panel showing that in fact the vps's are there and highlighting the lines in the screenshots which belonged to the paypal fraudster and sending them to paypal as I asked the person on the phone with paypal does the highlighting work and they said yes it helps to prove that those are the paypal fraudster's vps and payment details etc(and it helps it stand out so paypal can see it better)
      so do this and you probably will win the case in your(seller's) favor when you have absolute proof backing up the goods/virtual services/intangible goods was in fact delivered. I did this and won the case in my favor because I gave paypal this information and giving screenshots proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that the goods was shipped/delivered. and I even got the bonus of paypal putting a "red flag" on the buyer's account for opening the cases or in essence basically committing fraud.
      and how I was able to do that is when I called paypal back after getting the screenshots & all evidence submitted I told them I wanted to counter the claims and wanted to chargeback on them for fraud(which like I said they did do since it was basically filing false reports/claims)

      Also my fraudrecord module has @black's api in it that it does both fraudrecord checks & @black's proxy checks api as well basically two in one fraud module that does this while automatically scanning/screening the orders.

      CubeData FraudRecord Module: https://cubedata.net/fraudrecord OpenNebula module: https://cubedata.net/opennebula now for blesta & whmcs

    • @timnboys said:
      I actually won my paypal dispute recently by talking to paypal on the phone as to be honest when something like that happens I don't do email I talk to a human on the phone with paypal tell them all the info I have including sending screenshots of the whmcs billing panel and highlighting the entries using the snipping tool on win7 and above and also taking screenshots of the virtualizor control panel showing that in fact the vps's are there and highlighting the lines in the screenshots which belonged to the paypal fraudster and sending them to paypal as I asked the person on the phone with paypal does the highlighting work and they said yes it helps to prove that those are the paypal fraudster's vps and payment details etc(and it helps it stand out so paypal can see it better)
      so do this and you probably will win the case in your(seller's) favor when you have absolute proof backing up the goods/virtual services/intangible goods was in fact delivered. I did this and won the case in my favor because I gave paypal this information and giving screenshots proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that the goods was shipped/delivered. and I even got the bonus of paypal putting a "red flag" on the buyer's account for opening the cases or in essence basically committing fraud.
      and how I was able to do that is when I called paypal back after getting the screenshots & all evidence submitted I told them I wanted to counter the claims and wanted to chargeback on them for fraud(which like I said they did do since it was basically filing false reports/claims)

      Also my fraudrecord module has black's api in it that it does both fraudrecord checks & black's proxy checks api as well basically two in one fraud module that does this while automatically scanning/screening the orders.

      I have loaded screenshots proofs on paypal case and called them to tell the story. I have told them a few things about it and the operator placed me on hold and then he told me that the case its going to be investigated by the appropriate department and should be solved in 1-2 hours. I'm waiting for the email response now.

    • MisterHost_NETMisterHost_NET Member, Provider

      The best way is to ask for ID and some kind of invoice. But, not always this helps. You should be ready to make loss sometimes to have a successful business.

    • anthony1anthony1 Member
      edited January 2016

      Some people that fail to pay with paypal or deny the order due to maxmind fraud module they are asking for skrill or neteller, why is that ? Its more easy to fraud with skrill/neteller ?

    • @anthony1 said:
      Some people that fail to pay with paypal or deny the order due to maxmind fraud module they are asking for skrill or neteller, why is that ? Its more easy to fraud with skrill/neteller ?

      nope. neteller is very good . sign up yourself and check how many documents and verification you have to go through.

      +1 for nt and net+ card >3

    • anthony1anthony1 Member
      edited January 2016

      Bangladesh orders are coming like crazy with stolen paypal accounts. Is any provider facing the same issue ? I'm thinking to totally block this country together with proxy IPs. What do you think ?

    • CasterCaster Member
      edited January 2016

      @anthony1 said:
      Bangladesh orders are coming like crazy with stolen paypal accounts. Is any provider facing the same issue ? I'm thinking to totally block this country together with proxy IPs. What do you think ?

      I too get many orders from Bangladesh and less that 1% of them are chargebackers 99.99℅ use fake pp .

      I asked a couple of guys why and they answered :
      "PayPal doesn't exists in our country but with PayPal you can buy 99% things in the internet."

      well I asked for their I'd and phone and they did passed all. except few which is refunded.

      if you really wanna blockz then start with Nigeria . 99% of country wants to host and email "ransomware" . god damn world.

    • FranciscoFrancisco Top Provider

      Caster said: I too get many orders from Bangladesh and less that 1% of them are chargebackers 99.99℅ use fake pp .

      What do you classify as 'fake'? Bad details? Stolen? Unverified?

      Francisco

      Thanked by 1doghouch
      BuyVM - Dedicated KVM Slices / Anycast Support! / Stallion Control Panel / Windows 2008, 2012, & 2016! / Unmetered Bandwidth!
      BuyShared - Shared & Reseller Hosting / cPanel + Softaculous + CloudLinux / Pure SSD! / Free Dedicated IP Address
    • @Caster said:
      I too get many orders from Bangladesh and less that 1% of them are chargebackers 99.99℅ use fake pp .
      well I asked for their I'd and phone and they did passed all. except few which is refunded.

      This looks like a good news in a way..
      You have payments older like 180 days.. ? how about big amounts order $200-$1000 per order ? Paypal email used for payments match the email used to register on your website ?

    • anthony1anthony1 Member
      edited January 2016

      @Francisco said:
      What do you classify as 'fake'? Bad details? Stolen? Unverified?

      Exactly > @Caster, What do you classify as 'fake'?

    • FranciscoFrancisco Top Provider

      @anthony1 said:

      No no, i'm asking, what do you classify as it, just so everyone is on the same page. 'fake' can make many things.

      Francisco

      BuyVM - Dedicated KVM Slices / Anycast Support! / Stallion Control Panel / Windows 2008, 2012, & 2016! / Unmetered Bandwidth!
      BuyShared - Shared & Reseller Hosting / cPanel + Softaculous + CloudLinux / Pure SSD! / Free Dedicated IP Address
    • @Francisco said:

      by fake I meant they open pp with fake details. probably with same name but us or Canada as country.

      As a provider we try to grow and help out our clienta but when they use kind of this stuff off we are taking risk. the best way is Id verification with phone .

      As from my personal experience I can say I had only 1 chargeback specially when dealing clients of this country.

    • I don't know if it's viable for your business in terms of volume or anything, but since PP asks for physical proof of items shipped even for e-goods I make the service a tangible good by shipping via first class + tracking a letter with just a thank you or welcome and user name and a link to retrieve their password or something. You can print everything out and just give it to the mail guy or arrange a pickup online. I know it costs like $1 each but so far every time I had a tracking w/info actually shipped I've won the a CB. Once you do that it shifts the burden to the buyer to prove it's not them and also it notifies the buyer if it's a stolen card. Either way seller protection will kick in and with a bit of indignation on the phone I've had it work quite a few times. I think it's worth the trouble because last time I had a CB it was for $1000 and it wrecked my account for a a bit and even though in my state legally I'm allowed to keep it as an unconditional gift by statute PP still charged back.

      You can buy postage and tracking stuff online for cheaper than going to the post office anyway. Overseas one are harder because they want not just first class but global priority or something, so compare with UPS and Fedex and see if anyone will give you international tracked anything for cheap, PP will take anything except the $1.20 international first class (and sometimes they'll take that too but sometimes they'll say there's no signature required on delivery, although domestic priority doesn't have signature either and they'll take it, very inconsistent especially as signing things in some places isn't as common as the US).

      Thanked by 2Mridul apidevlab

      Subversion? That's some sort of software, right?

    • @Caster said:
      if you really wanna blockz then start with Nigeria . 99% of country wants to host and email "ransomware" . god damn world.

      No you are wrong the Nigerian prince needs to send people billions in with a "cloud vps"

    • MHS_MarcMHS_Marc Member, Provider

      Yeah this is always fun to deal with.

      Provide a copy of the order details from WHMCS, I do it with a screen shot. Make sure it also shows their details they used when signing up and the transaction id. Once you have uploaded this to paypal give them a call. Each time I've called I get the money back. When you let the computer decide the outcome without talking to them you get screwed each time.

      If you get an order and the details don't match with the paypal account require id. I give them 24 hours to provide it and if they don't or reply with some bullcrap reason for the mismatched info I refund the money to the account and cancel the order.

      When first starting out your most likely to look past things that are out of place. It's not worth your account getting frozen. Use MindMax, FraudRecord etc. The amount of fraud with VPS and Dedicated Servers orders is unreal.

    • @Francisco said:

      Unverified as a starter, then most the time they sign up conflicting information email, address etc.

    Sign In or Register to comment.