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PayPal disputes and virtual goods
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PayPal disputes and virtual goods

gsrdgrdghdgsrdgrdghd Member
edited November 2011 in General

Hello
I have read a lot of posts recently where Paypal didn't refund money from fraudsters such as UptimeVPS because a VPS is a virtual good.
Does it actually state explicitly in the Paypal TOS that VPSses are virtual goods?
Or do they just claim that? And if so, would a dedicated server not fall under this category?

Comments

  • jhjh Member
    edited November 2011

    Yes hosting is considered a virtual good over at Paypal.

  • Hmmm, probably any hosting service is virtual :S

    But sometimes Paypal refunds you. I don't know under what circumstances but it works (enscloud in my case).

  • jhjh Member

    If the vendor doesn't respond they'll likely refund you. The vendor actually has to step in and mention very clearly that it's a virtual good.

  • @jtodd said: The vendor actually has to step in and mention very clearly that it's a virtual good.

    I guess that is the idea

    The westnetsouth guy was dead

  • I was refunded by PayPal for a shared hosting account never activated.

    @yomero said: Hmmm, probably any hosting service is virtual

    Sorry, little off-topic: dedicated servers are tangible items, aren't they?

  • @Zero said: tangible items

    tan·gi·ble
    adjective

    capable of being touched; discernible by the touch; material or substantial.

    real or actual, rather than imaginary or visionary: the tangible benefits of sunshine.

    definite; not vague or elusive: no tangible grounds for suspicion.

    (of an asset) having actual physical existence, as real estate or chattels, and therefore capable of being assigned a value in monetary terms.

    When PayPal says tangible, it is aan item shipped to you and the seller provides proof via a tracking number with the shipper used, so no, dedicated servers are not tabgile.

    Thanked by 1kylix
    Hostigation High Resource Hosting - SolusVM KVM VPS / Proxmox OpenVZ VPS- Low Cost Comodo SSL Certificates
  • ZeroZero Member
    edited November 2011

    Sorry, I meant that a dedicated server isn't virtual but physical.

    Alternatives to PayPal with a better "refund policy" ? :p

  • Yes, isn't virtual, but you don't receive it in your home u_u

  • @Zero said: Alternatives to PayPal with a better "refund policy" ? :p

    Your Credit card company.

  • cleonardcleonard Member
    edited November 2011

    I guess that what matters is if the entities email address is still working. If it is still up, they can say "virtual good" and then PayPal denies the refund. So I'd say the strategy is to wait until the VPS provider is good and dead. Then wait a bit more. You are hoping that the email that they used for PayPal no longer works when you apply to PayPal for your money back.

    So don't ask for a refund in the zombie period. Give it a bit of time so they pass from the walking dead phase into the great beyond. Don't forget the PayPal dispute policy has time limits though.

  • So don't ask for a refund in the zombie period. Give it a bit of time so they pass from the walking dead phase into the great beyond. Don't forget the PayPal dispute policy has time limits though.

    45 days :X I wonder if they doesn't have any sort of "acceptable" margins for refunding virtual goods and especially things as common as different types of payed hosting/online services.

    I've never went with full Paypal dispute, since either my case is solved before the dispute is over and it's closed. Or, I already passed the time for a dispute especially that I don't prefer paying month to month but annually/semi annually/quarterly.

    But if Paypal is that loose, I seriously will have to switch to something else, which I don't have a clue yet what it can be.

    ☻☻ VPS ☺ as of now:- 384-256-128-512x2 ☺☺

  • @Zero said: I was refunded by PayPal for a shared hosting account never activated.

    That's when we hear that they refund. If the service has never been provided seems like you can argue your case and get a refund.

    I think I mentioned a server that I leased once that was allocated with the wrong driver or a mislabeled network card (I don't even remember anymore.) that Paypal found for the provider because the server had actually been delivered.

  • SimplyfastSimplyfast Member
    edited November 2011

    I strongly believe that VPS are not virtual goods.

    You rent da damn hardware!

    Next time try credit card or google checkout.

    Try to dispute "Computer Hardware" with paypal.

    Go with reliable providers!

    Get cheap/newbies providers for sandboxes only.

    GETALIFE!

  • @Simplyfast said: I strongly believe that VPS are not virtual goods.

    You rent da damn hardware!

    No you don't. What you rent are allocated ressouces on some hardware. You get allocated ressouces. The hardware is not itself the part of your contract. Th hardware is just needed for the provider to provide the allocated ressources.

    You also don't buy the table when you order an architect to make a construction of a house. Even though the architect needs the table to draw your house.

  • SimplyfastSimplyfast Member
    edited November 2011

    @kylix:

    50 gb HD = hardware

    512MB ram = hardware

    2 core cpu = hardware



    cpanel = software



    An architect example was not.... suitable

  • kylixkylix Member
    edited November 2011

    @Simplyfast said: 50 gb HD = hardware

    512MB ram = hardware
    2 core cpu = hardware

    You get an allocated ressource of a dedicated disk. You don't get a 50GB harddisk you can take with you. You get 512MB RAM allocated from the overall RAM of a machine. You don't get the RAM brick you can take away. You get 2 virtual cores. You are neither put exclusively on 2 cores of the CPU nor do you get 2 cores of a CPU in a shippable form.

    The point is that it is intangible as the word is meant. You simply can't touch the ressources that are allocated because they do not exist physically on their own. They are just virtually distinct from the ther allocations.

    intangible

    Cpanel is considered as being software. That is right so far. But that wasn't the problem here.

  • No disrespect to you @Simplyfast but it doesn't matter what you think. You're not Paypal.

    Sucks, doesn't it?

  • I really don't see how people keep having issues with this.

    Thanked by 1kylix
  • Um @Aldryic we still have people signing up for ipap and UptimeVPS around here.

    Do you mean having issues as in not understanding what makes a virtual good order or an issue in not being able to get a refund or something else?

  • I'm pretty sure that refund policy would break laws in my country.

    Thanked by 1tux

    You can spam me with any yearly shared hosting deal.

  • @drmike No, I mean issues in not having the situation fairly resolved. In two years, I've lost as many PayPal disputes simply by being well prepared and providing sufficient information on the case.

    From the buyer standpoint, about the same ratio. There are times that, if the seller has already 'taken the money and run', PayPal will decline reimbursement on the claim that there is nothing to reimburse with. I learned my lesson about trustworthiness and moved on.

  • They probably don't do business in your country. Whatever it is. There's a number of countries that they don't do business in.

  • @Aldryic I don't know what crawled up your butt recently but you've been attacking me recently. After your recent bigoted remark towards me, I'm just going to ignore you.

  • I'm sorry, what? For starters, my current location is in the US. So that renders country null and void.

    If I weren't in the US, how would that affect matters at all? If anything, it seems like it would be the reverse ("We specifically don't service your country, you're breaking our rules by using our service, you automatically lose, etc etc")

  • @drmike said: I don't know what crawled up your butt recently but you've been attacking me recently. After your recent bigoted remark towards me, I'm just going to ignore you.

    That's your choice, nobody is forced to listen to me. But if you're going to pull an /ignore, be a man and don't try to insult someone while you get your 'last word'.

  • Ding ding, Aldryic VS DrMike - Place your bets!

    You can spam me with any yearly shared hosting deal.

  • No contest. It's going to be a one sided pity fest, and I simply don't feel like stomaching that much crying tonight. He can have his 'win'.

  • SpiritSpirit Disabled
    edited November 2011

    Recently me and my friend (also from LEB) opened dispute with paypal for non recieved service. Exactly same matter with same proofs. He won it and I didn't. Funny, a? Only difference which come to my mind is his native english and location.

    I don't want to spread potentially false rumours but I got impression like North American/Canadian residents have bigger chances to win dispute with paypal than some.. eastern european or asian as example.

  • It's not so much a rumour as you may think, Spirit. PayPal uses a system very similar to MaxMind, where ethnic and regional statistics ARE taken highly into consideration.

    Another factor is things such as, say, use of a proxy/VPN. If you are in communication with PayPal from your home ISP, and all of your information on file with them is correct, you have a much higher chance of winning your dispute or claim. Conversely, if you are using a proxy service, signed up under the name "Some Gameserver, LLC", you can pretty much give it up.

  • Go59954Go59954 Member
    edited November 2011

    @Simplyfast said: 50 gb HD = hardware

    512MB ram = hardware
    2 core cpu = hardware
    cpanel = software
    An architect example was not.... suitable

    If our VPS company is getting cleared and we can get 'our' node instead of our money, in that case I can divide lots of parts in its chassis that can be distributed among 30-40 clients, CPU, RAM sticks, HDDs, Chassis, PSU, Wires, Battery.. well. lol ..... forget it.

    But seriously, I believe it's no way right to not be able to receive money back for renting something online, and in a world that is basically virtual like Internet.

    ☻☻ VPS ☺ as of now:- 384-256-128-512x2 ☺☺

  • @drmike said: No disrespect to you @Simplyfast but it doesn't matter what you think. You're not Paypal.

    Sucks, doesn't it?

    You're absolutely right.

    @Go59954 , @kylix :

    As I've said, it's just my belief, that VPS is more like hardware (or part of it) lease, cause you lease real hardware resources.

  • Hi, Anything that cannot be tracked with a tracking ID will not be covered per PayPal's buyer complaint policies.

    Best,

    Kevin

  • @drmike said: No disrespect to you @Simplyfast but it doesn't matter what you think. You're not Paypal.

    Well but people could file a lawsuit against their decision to not refund VPSs (although i doubt that anyone would actually do that)

    @FTN_Kevin said: Hi, Anything that cannot be tracked with a tracking ID will not be covered per PayPal's buyer complaint policies.

    Hmm can we claim that the WHCMS order ID is the tracking ID? :D

  • Paypal refunded me for the case of eNetSouth.

  • @tonkla said: Paypal refunded me for the case of eNetSouth.

    Me too, but it seems that is because the owner just ignored all the paypal mails.

    Thanked by 1tonkla
  • @FTN_Kevin said: Hi, Anything that cannot be tracked with a tracking ID will not be covered per PayPal's buyer complaint policies.

    Yes it will. Shipping company: Other; Tracking Number: Virtual.

  • miTgiBmiTgiB Member
    edited November 2011

    @Aldryic said: Yes it will. Shipping company: Other; Tracking Number: Virtual.

    Why are you giving away our secrets? I escalate and do exactly that if they were not due a refund.

    Hostigation High Resource Hosting - SolusVM KVM VPS / Proxmox OpenVZ VPS- Low Cost Comodo SSL Certificates
  • Because I only gave away half of the secret, shame on them if they don't look up the rest of the necessary info on their own :3

  • It's pretty much hit and miss when it comes to Virtual Goods.

  • ztecztec Member
    edited November 2011

    Just wanted to tell that Paypal refunded all transactions made to UptimeVPS ( even those over 45 days a go ) to me.

    You can spam me with any yearly shared hosting deal.

  • This is why I thank paypal for locking my account forever: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7458554&posted=1#post7458554

    Tada: My account has been permanently locked with a balance of 0 USD,

    I'm looking for a sponsored KVM VPS, but I'm not in a hurry. Just want to hear what you might offer to me
  • paypal not refund for virtual item i am also victim of uptimevps

    so chargeback via your creditcard company or bank

    if you paid by paypal balance then it is tough to get back

  • The problem with that though is if you do a chargeback against Paypal, don't they lock you out of your paypal account?

    From my time here, seems like many folks when they have an issue with a provider, they go immediately to the chargeback level instead of just asking for a refund and cancellation.

  • For me PayPal is just awesome, I feel for the people in upcoming economies - but there's more out there for those people.

    You can spam me with any yearly shared hosting deal.

  • @ztec said: For me PayPal is just awesome,

    I fully agree on that. Paypal+prepaid-CC is the perfect combination.

    Thanked by 1drmike

    La parole nous a été donnée pour déguiser notre pensée.

  • @japon said: Paypal+prepaid-CC is the perfect combination.

    Heck, even I agree with that. That's probably how I'm paying for my new VPSes....

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