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Neon Server Control Panel For Websites & Administrators - Page 3
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Neon Server Control Panel For Websites & Administrators

13

Comments

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @Ishaq said: That's your second shameless bump :P

    He likes bumping.

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    I have no shame in bum ping

  • I'm fine with him bumping the thread.

  • concerto49concerto49 Member
    edited December 2012

    I see the problem as it's open source / free so it should stay that way. This is where donations come in.

    Commercial applications ask for a sum of money explicitly. I need $x for said milestones to be achieved. Looking at the kickstarter it is open source but needing money for features.

    The other thing is it is clearly stated this will be done eventually regardless. It's not a if you don't have money it won't be done thing. It is a moot point saying developers need to be fed since development won't stop.

    From the sounds of it, the project is already underway and as said won't be stopped. In comparison, I see most kickstarters as concepts that need money to grow rather than just want it to be a bit faster.

    If it was a commercial application I'd chip in to get a license. Right now, you have to pay the kickstarter and still pay for support. The pro edition isn't offered in the pledges. At least the wording isn't obvious.

  • HalfEatenPieHalfEatenPie Veteran
    edited December 2012

    @concerto49 said: From the sounds of it, the project is already underway and as said won't be stopped. In comparison, I see most kickstarters as concepts that need money to grow rather than just want it to be a bit faster.

    Well, the entire point of the Kickstarter is that the team coding it do have jobs and use that job to feed themselves and to work on the project. Now the reason why this Kickstarter exists is because the less they can focus on their job the more they can focus on the actual product (control panel). This also means more time they can invest into the control panel and into pushing Version 1 with more functions. Think of it this way, would you rather have the panel Now or in two years?

    @concerto49 said: If it was a commercial application I'd chip in to get a license. Right now, you have to pay the kickstarter and still pay for support. The pro edition isn't offered in the pledges. At least the wording isn't obvious.

    The pro-edition is offered in the pledge (its the 30 dollars and above pledges). And I will quote "Access to 1 professional license with additional features:..."

    Time = Money. More time they can invest in this the less money they make at their jobs. So to help them invest more time into this panel and to get it out faster, they started this Kickstarter.

  • I think @concerto49's point was the kickstarter comes off like it is selling a free product.

  • @mojeda said: I think @concerto49's point was the kickstarter comes off like it is selling a free product.

    Oh. Well I guess I could see that yes, but the same statement applies to some of the other posts on this topic.

  • @mojeda - While it's true the basic portion will be free it will get all of it's funding from the paid version. The kick starter ends with one goal in mind: the professional version. On all levels above $30 your getting a professional copy of the software so you are paying for it instead of just funding a free project.

    The reality is if the kickstarter fails I may end up putting everything behind the paywall and going that route.

  • erhwegesrgsrerhwegesrgsr Member
    edited December 2012

    It's quite common to have a pro version to support a free product.
    But then ALSO expect a big sum of money? Please stop making yourself look like a fool. @concerto49 has a valid point, you could better either do one of the following things:

    • pre-order it for 50% off
    • ask for donations

    This is not how free open source software is meant to be approached, you told me you want to earn money on less techy people by providing premium support, then why do you also expect money from us?! Your goal is a product that you can "sell" (as in support) to people who don't even know what open-source is.

    Sounds simply greedy to me, who says nobody else will also start providing support cheaper than you? I would drop the support idea, then kickstarter is reasonable (still don't see why you don't have a fucking donate button and just ser what comes in instead of money in advance)

    Code part 1 -> Pledge for money -> finish product, da fuq?
    Code in free time + accept donations

    Summary: DON'T TRY EARNING MONEY WITH OPEN SOURCE (facepalm) Open source is so everybody can contribute, don't abuse the term to earn money

    And for this reason I wanted @joepie91 to just lead this project because he doesn't try getting money for everything and does open source without expecting anything back for it (that's the idea of open source)

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    The whole idea of opensource = no money has often baffled me, I don't agree that just because something is open source it is free, it literally means in my eyes that the source code is open and available.

    RadHat make a fair bit of money from open source software, and while I agree that because @joepie91 is involved the goal probably is not one of profit that does not take away his right to eat.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @BronzeByte said: But then ALSO expect a big sum of money? Please stop making yourself look like a fool. @concerto49 has a valid point, you could better either do one of the following things:

    • pre-order it for 50% off

    Whoa, hold up one moment there. Pledges above $30 get a paid license, so I'm not sure how your suggestion to "pre-order it for 50% off" is any better.

    @BronzeByte said: This is not how free open source software is meant to be approached,

    Eh. Who are you to say how "open source software is meant to be approached"? While I personally prefer fully non-profit and donation-based projects (and I'll be working on the open-source part primarily here), that is still something that is up to personal choice. The point of open-source is freedom, and that includes freedom in how to approach things. I actually find your remark quite rude and disrespectful, as if you somehow hold the sole right to decide what is "acceptable" for open-source and what isn't.

    @BronzeByte said: you told me you want to earn money on less techy people by providing premium support, then why do you also expect money from us?!

    For the same reason other commercial projects are started on Kickstarter: for initial funding.

    @BronzeByte said: Your goal is a product that you can "sell" (as in support) to people who don't even know what open-source is.

    I very strongly doubt that. Open-source is, by now, a pretty commonly known concept.

    @BronzeByte said: (still don't see why you don't have a fucking donate button and just ser what comes in instead of money in advance)

    Probably because people are far less inclined to donate to things up-front, than when they can already use the finished software (this is something I have noticed as well). If anything, the Kickstarter resembles a donation button that will only actually charge you if the project goes ahead as planned. I don't really see your issue with it.

    @BronzeByte said: Summary: DON'T TRY EARNING MONEY WITH OPEN SOURCE (facepalm)

    Calm down.

    @BronzeByte said: Open source is so everybody can contribute, don't abuse the term to earn money

    Apart from "everybody can contribute" and "earning money" not being mutually exclusive, I have the idea that you're missing some crucial history of the open-source movement. Otherwise, you'd know that the primary goal of open-source is the ability to share code/software (or source materials, rather), and not "having everything for free" - and it has been this way pretty much since the inception of GNU. While I very strongly believe in non-profit projects, your perception of what open-source is, is simply incorrect.

  • @joepie91

    Stop breaking down my post, rather just take a look at this:

    @BlueVM said: The reality is if the kickstarter fails I may end up putting everything behind the paywall and going that route.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider
    edited December 2012

    @BronzeByte said: Stop breaking down my post, rather just take a look at this:

    @BlueVM said: The reality is if the kickstarter fails I may end up putting everything behind the paywall and going that route.

    If he chooses to make it closed-source, and abandon both the Kickstarter and the open-source version, that is his choice.

    And instead of complaining about me breaking down your post, maybe you should consider the points raised.

  • The only problem I see with the OpenSource model for this project is the fact that it is open souce so what keeps somebody from taking your work that you plan to make money off such as a plugin or module that you offer as a paid addon and creating their own? it just doesn't make sense to me.

  • twaintwain Member
    edited December 2012

    What is the pricing model for the pro license..? eg would a $30 pledge give you a pro license for one year or is it lifetime?

  • HalfEatenPieHalfEatenPie Veteran
    edited December 2012

    @BronzeByte said: Stop breaking down my post,

    This is probably the most ridiculous statement I have read in a while. If you write a large post that many individuals would want to comment on, then you should expect it to be broken down.

    Seriously, please take a look at it from their perspective.

    • You're investing time in a panel/software that you believe others can use and hopefully become the next big solution to everyone's problems.
    • When you initially started you thought it'd be a simple job, but later turned into a major time consumer (even when you've finished a decent chunk of it).
    • Believing there's a time constraint (If we get it faster, we can use it earlier), they started a kickstarter to help speed things up
    • They're going ahead with what they had planned, but the Kickstarter will basically overhaul the process by 5x (or however much).
    • As per Kickstarter recommendations, they add the additional tiers (the additional OS, Apache, etc.) to try and raise as much funds as they could (and probably go off of it for a long time as well)

    I see it as this way:
    You're angry because you see it as a way for an "open-source" project to make money when its "already almost done". Its not almost done. What they showed was what's currently done, but there are still a ton left to do. Also, they never said they won't support those (other tiers) ever, but if they do hit that level they'd make sure to place that "development" at a higher level.

    I don't understand your issue with this, and personally I do find you quite rude in your posts.

    @twain said: would a $30 pledge give you a pro license for one year or is it lifetime?

    It should be lifetime (to my knowledge).

    @24khost said: The only problem I see with the OpenSource model for this project is the fact that it is open souce so what keeps somebody from taking your work that you plan to make money off such as a plugin or module that you offer as a paid addon and creating their own? it just doesn't make sense to me.

    There's no stopping them (if I understood your question properly). But the benefit they have is that they created the panel and therefore have the best knowledge on how it works. They're not trying to make money off of this (to my knowledge, just get initial funding to get everything they need kicked into high-gear and invest more time into it), and by releasing the panel Open Source once they're done (and even during development), other people can take the panel and make their own software out of it and hopefully improve upon it.

    @AnthonySmith said: The whole idea of opensource = no money has often baffled me, I don't agree that just because something is open source it is free, it literally means in my eyes that the source code is open and available.

    Personally, I don't really know exactly how Red Hat makes their profits, but I'm sure they make their money through Training (Red Hat products and software), Corporate Partnership, Support, Server Management, Their Software, etc. But Red Hat's software are MUCH more integrated into the Enterprise world and honestly, I see its position (especially with the Open Source world) as quite unique.

    Now, I'll admit the entire Red Hat company's structure and how they function I am oblivious to, but this just my opinion (and if I'm wrong then definitely let me know).

    Hell I could be wrong on some statements above, but personally I have a large amount of faith in the team behind Neon (especially since I actually know all of the developers).

  • @Zen it is more of an issue of wrapping my head around opensource and the premium version setup. So are the premium extra's closed source? Protected by ioncube or some obfuscation? What keeps somebody from cloning everything for free and taking all your profit? It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

  • HalfEatenPieHalfEatenPie Veteran
    edited December 2012

    @24khost said: So are the premium extra's closed source? Protected by ioncube or some obfuscation? What keeps somebody from cloning everything for free and taking all your profit? It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

    I'd say no obfuscation (to my knowledge atleast I don't know). I know for a fact that @joepie91 hates all the "code obfuscation". I'd say the thing protecting them from "taking all the profit" is continued support, probably a license system, and faster updates.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider
    edited December 2012

    @24khost said: So are the premium extra's closed source?

    I would imagine so, yes.

    @24khost said: Protected by ioncube or some obfuscation? What keeps somebody from cloning everything for free and taking all your profit?

    The same thing that keeps you from cloning some random other unobfuscated thing, and the same thing that keeps you from decompiling Microsoft Office and selling it under your own name: the fact that you don't have a license for distribution. I don't get why people suddenly raise this as a problem whenever the topic of "Ioncube" and the perceived need for it comes into the discussion, whereas everyone just assumes that noone will take the legal risk in every other situation. It's really not any different.

    @24khost said: It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

    It doesn't make sense from your perspective. Presenting your personal perspective as a supposedly factual "business perspective" is misleading.

  • @joepie91 I just can't see puting the code at risk to be taken with out at least trying to protect it. We all know people who use pirated software. people will always find away but I think it keeps the honest man, honest. I know people hate that wording but, there is temptation in pirating. Hey I can save a buck here, or save a buck there, but if you make it harder to steal it does take away some of the people who would have did it only to save a buck even though they are normally honest.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @24khost said: I just can't see puting the code at risk to be taken with out at least trying to protect it.

    Yes, I believe that's what the Copyright Act was for (or your local equivalent).

  • 24khost24khost Member
    edited December 2012

    But @joepie91 it is ineffective. That is why code obfuscation came about.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @24khost said: But @joepie91 it is ineffective.

    Sources for that?

    @24khost said: That is why code obfuscation came about.

    No. Code obfuscation came about because certain people realized that they could scare others into thinking all their stuff was at risk, and they could sell things to allegedly "solve" that problem to people, and make a fuckload of money.

    Not unlike the business model of malware companies.

  • I think the bottom line is $10,000 is way too much, it's never going to get funded...

  • Copyright in general is ineffective.

    Unless you want to spend countless hours chasing people and spending money on court cases to get nothing. Unless your a multi-million dollar company who has funds to burn on these types of things, you just don't acknowledge them or obfuscate code cause it is cheaper.

  • Ewww....

    1) Not using blowfish. Using SHA-256, really? ( https://github.com/BlueVM/Neon/blob/master/includes/functions/users.inc.php#L50 )

    2) You shouldn't be echo'ing anything. Let templates handle that, pass variables to the templates.

    3) Why cphp, and not a mature tested framework?

    4) This is mostly on cphp, why aren't you using an autoloader? There's no need to include every single class on every page load.

    I'll look more indef later, but just from a quick glance that's what came to mind.

  • 24khost24khost Member
    edited December 2012

    @jopie91

    just one copyright infringer costs.

    File a case in MN in Wright County where I live $320.00 (must be filed in the county where the crime took place).

    I don't show up.

    Assignment of judgement $5.00

    Transcript of judgement $40.00

    subpeona $14.00

    Your total out of pocket 379.00

    Great you have a judgement, now you have to collect it. So now you can report it to my credit report. You either do the credit collection yourself or pay someone else to do it. Those things will cost your money. Not sure how much but, at this point it is not worth it.

    Plus whatever you lost by my infringing on your copyright infringment.

  • $199 dollars for ioncube sounds better to me!

  • @24khost - The hosting industry is self regulating. Any time a new hosting company pops up on here people check the SolusVM and WHMCS licenses to make sure they're legit. The same thing will happen in the professional edition of the software. It will be "oh you can't afford the professional edition?" or "you pirated the professional edition?" --> dead pool in a month.

  • @BlueVM that is not my point. My point is more of the protection part. I can see the opensource part but when you start adding things to it that are going to be premium then why would you not want them protected some how? This isn't the only place people sell, WJunction and other places have hosts with pirated software. It is all just about protection of the product. Jo brought up the copyright but I brought up the part that makes punishing copyright infingers pointless.

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