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Is OpenVZ basically like shared hosting for grown ups :) ?
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Is OpenVZ basically like shared hosting for grown ups :) ?

sandrosandro Member
edited December 2012 in General

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been reading some differences between OVZ and Xen and it looks to me that OVZ has nothing different from shared hosting expect for root access when it comes to resources.

This came to my mind when I started reading some comments of good appealing offers on VPS's that became unresponsive/down because "a lot of people where benchmarking" (the host said).
What is the point of having of OpenVZ virtualization if you share resources with other containers and most importantly you get kicked out if you abuse resources YOU PAY FOR!
Isn't Xen (and others like it) the only real VPS in the end? I mean I want guaranteed resources, I want to use my resources till the last bit without affecting others (even though with disk I/O it's basically impossible to avoid) and not being worried I can get my space terminated -without notice-!
Does non-OpenVZ virtualization allow you to abuse your resources as much as you want without affecting others and keeping your slow, painful server performance for as long as you want without having the provider on your back? Example: I see that with Xen you get dedicated CPU power and no one can use it even if you don't, instead on OpenVZ offers I always read shared.

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Comments

  • Shared hosting is (usually) HTTP hosting. VPS hosting is full server hosting.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited December 2012

    It is not this easy, take a look here:
    http://board.prometeus.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=851&sid=a63349b9c6741864888785fb5e3f1284

    In a VPS you can install whatever webserver, whatever ftp client, use full root to even install your own hosting panel, youc an also install gameservers, monitoring software, VPN, almost everything (some things do not work well on OVZ).
    Regarding separation of resources, granted, OVZ is not the best, but can also scale up a bit if needed and the node is not oversold past the point when the resources can no longer be guaranteed.
    Xen is also of many kinds, and will get even more complicated with the latest version, practically Xen will have everything starting a bit above OVZ and ending with KVM/VMWare/Vbox/whatever other full virtualization hypervisor.

  • @sandro said: Does non-OpenVZ virtualization allow you to abuse your resources as much as you want without affecting others and keeping your slow, painful server performance for as long as you want without having the provider on your back?

    No, that's marketing. If you thrash resources on Xen or KVM you will still get booted, or scaled back/asked to stop.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    @ihatetonyy said: No, that's marketing. If you thrash resources on Xen or KVM you will still get booted, or scaled back/asked to stop.

    True, on our KVM plans there is always some memory leak/undersized vm which starts abusing swap and disk and the user hears from us if that is the case, most of the time the problem is corrected and our IOPS are undersold so we can take the beating for a while, i cant think of more than 2-3 cases where i had to reboot the VPS as an emergency and only one when I had to keep it down as the abuse would resume after reboot.
    In teh case of OVZ, tho, that happens much more often, but again, there are more ppl inclined to buy cheap and abuse it there.

  • @sandro said: What is the point of having of OpenVZ virtualization if you share resources with other containers and most importantly you get kicked out if you abuse resources YOU PAY FOR!

    That's when legal speak like "fair share" and TOS usually come in because some kid is converting video on a VPS node or running benchmarks constantly like some OCD freak

  • sandrosandro Member
    edited December 2012

    @Maounique i will read that long page, thanks :)
    EDIT: READ even though I don't see advantages and disadvantages on paravirtualization :)
    So basically there's no way to get a "fully" dedicated environment on a VPS at all? The only solution to have that kind of resource is only a dedicated server?

  • @bamn said: some kid is converting video on a VPS node or running benchmarks constantly like some OCD freak

    let's consider this case. Video encoding usually never puts stress on the disk i/o since the process is much much slower than what you would consider abuse, just a constant read/write at around 2-3MB/s. In this case if you have a core dedicated to your box ONLY and on Xen (where it can be done) would this have an effect on others even if ran 24/7?

  • @sandro said: Video encoding usually never puts stress on the disk i/o since the process is much much slower than what you would consider abuse, just a constant read/write at around 2-3MB/s.

    I can tell you're a customer

    A kid running Deluge and constantly seeding will eat disk I/O which is why.... (shocker) some providers prohibit torrents???

  • sandrosandro Member
    edited December 2012

    @bamn said: I can tell you're a customer

    what do you mean? :) Do some providers allow video transconding on VPS's?

  • Lets put this throught the bamn translator "I can tell your a customer"
    ............
    output->Basically put you don't understand the concept of cores when it comes to a vps. When you have a vps with these specs.

    1core
    1gb memory
    20gb space

    You don't have one full core dedicated to you. You have access to one full core in a burst. if you use over so much processor an hour your going to violate the tos most likley as your abusing the cpu.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @sandro said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been reading some differences between OVZ and Xen and it looks to me that OVZ has nothing different from shared hosting expect for root access when it comes to resources.

    OpenVZ has more in common with Xen, than with shared hosting. OpenVZ is basically a jail pretending to be virtualization, whereas Xen is actual virtualization (assuming HVM).

    @sandro said: What is the point of having of OpenVZ virtualization if you share resources with other containers

    Sharing resources is pretty much the point of virtualization.

    @sandro said: and most importantly you get kicked out if you abuse resources YOU PAY FOR!

    In nearly every case, you pay for your "fair share" of the shared resources (disk I/O, network, etc.). This is the case regardless of virtualization technology, and to a degree even the case for dedicated servers. If you wish to have 100% dedicated resources, you may as well give up, since you'd have to lay or rent your own fiber from point to point.

    @sandro said: Isn't Xen (and others like it) the only real VPS in the end?

    Xen has both real virtualization (HVM) and paravirtualization (PV). If you look at the purpose of a VPS (note: not the same as "Virtual Machine"!), I don't see why there would be any difference between virtualization technologies. If you can use it as a stand-alone server...

    @sandro said: I mean I want guaranteed resources, I want to use my resources till the last bit without affecting others (even though with disk I/O it's basically impossible to avoid)

    Then get a dedicated server with your own dedicated link.

    @sandro said: and not being worried I can get my space terminated -without notice-!

    This is a problem with the host you are using, and has absolutely nothing to do with virtualization technology or type of service. A decent host will always contact you and try to solve the issue in a reasonable manner before taking any kind of action in the form of termination.

    @sandro said: Does non-OpenVZ virtualization allow you to abuse your resources as much as you want without affecting others and keeping your slow, painful server performance for as long as you want without having the provider on your back? Example: I see that with Xen you get dedicated CPU power and no one can use it even if you don't, instead on OpenVZ offers I always read shared.

    OpenVZ does in fact have CPU throttling, although this apparently does not work on all kernels. Similarly, it is, to my knowledge, technically possible to throttle disk I/O by using virtio.

    While I definitely don't like OpenVZ because of its "hackiness" (basically, everything seems duct-taped together), there really isn't such a difference between OpenVZ and other technologies as you seem to believe there is.

  • @bamn is that pretty accurate? Still working on the translator.

  • @24khost said: Basically put you don't understand the concept of cores when it comes to a vps

    That's why I said "one core dedicated to you only" which it can be done.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @bamn said: running Deluge and constantly seeding will eat disk I/O

    IO priority set to idle, CPU limit set to 5%, enjoy your "download" ;)

    Of course I only do that to the ones who think "unlimited" is a great setting for every value.

  • But it is not. A provider would most likley not be able to make a profit unless they are charging an arm and a leg for a dedicated core. a $7.00 vps with 1 dedicated core might barley make a profit of a dollar or 2 if each person had a dedicated core.

  • @sandro said: That's why I said "one core dedicated to you only" which it can be done.

    Yep, you being a customer is blatantly obvious to your "perfect world" scenarios

  • @joepie91 said: and to a degree even the case for dedicated servers.

    And why is that? They're gonna kick me out of the server used by me only ? :|

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited December 2012

    @sandro said: That's why I said "one core dedicated to you only" which it can be done.

    Sure, you just won't want to know what I'm going to charge you for that ;)
    I'm thinking $100/m off the top of my head, and you can get your own dedi for less.

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider
    edited December 2012

    @sandro said: And why is that? They're gonna kick me out of the server used by me only ? :|

    If you constantly max out your shared gbit port (and affect other users), then probably yes.

  • @jarland thank you. No thanks button yet!

  • sandrosandro Member
    edited December 2012

    I know that no one will ever allow that and no I wasn't suggesting I'm looking for one :) ( I already knew everything is shared).
    I'm just trying to learn how things work. Do you have to be rude and call me a "customer" apparently in a bad way :P ?
    I was saying: in a hypothetical situation like that would I be able to not bother other containers?

    Advise to @24khost. I noticed you keep having those "attitudes" in this forum. Being a provider I'm telling ya...it doesn't make you look good.

  • sandro: just limit you encoding with cpulimit to an acceptable rate (consult with staff) and you are good to go. Although i can say that encodes will be really slow, depending of course on the package you bought and the quality you want to achieve.
    If you are in a hurry (with encodes) buy a dedicated server, there are quite a few good deals out now, and i guess a few of them will come in the next two weeks (holiday deals, yay).

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited December 2012

    Commercial media dual L5420 is the best machine I've used for video encoding, for the price range. Blows any of kimsufi's line out of the water in processing power. If I recall, xvid full movie to H264 in about 15 minutes. My memory could be playing tricks on me, but it certainly felt that fast if it wasn't.

  • if you want to download with torrent, then limit the connection number to (for example) 10 (not 10/torrent, but 10/all torrent) and the speed for example 1000 kb/s - also read after "screen" and "rtorrent". Those two words could be your friends on lowend torrent boxes. (Also patience)

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @jarland said: Commercial media dual L5420 is the best machine I've used for video encoding, for the price range. Blows any of kimsufi's line out of the water in processing power. If I recall, xvid full movie to H264 in about 15 minutes. My memory could be playing tricks on me, but it certainly felt that fast if it wasn't.

    Hm, what were you paying for it?

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @joepie91 said: Hm, what were you paying for it?

    Was $45/m. Looks like they've gone up to $60, but an e-mail might change that. Had a 500GB HD and unmetered 100mbit. Not the best of bandwidth, no where near the worst.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    Xen is far from a container since you can run own kernel.
    We do allow video transcoding and many ppl do that using things like clipbucket. Sure it is not the regular blueray 3d, but something much more basic and it works on ovz too. Even things like Octopus do but need some 1 gb ram.
    Had a bitcoin miner and also some grid computers right now, they are nice'd and not creating much problems overall.
    In general, CPU gets abused from mistakes in configuring the services. A normal node will run out of IOPS before CPU even with SSD, our E3s are doing 16 GB ram without going past 30% CPU, even on non-biz plans. The rest of 70%, sure, is not really ready to go, but at least 30% more is possible. It does not mean that I dont shutdown containers with 700 load. Some ppl do go too far.

  • I read about people showing the CPU load from their container as proof someone else on the node is abusing the service...so my question is what i see as load on ovz box is not the load of my vps?

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited December 2012

    Yes and no. The load on your container is influenced by the load on the node. In the other type of container type VPS you will indeed see the load ont he node (vServer) but OVZ isolates more than that.
    The clearest example would be if the storage is out of IOPS it will take a long time to read/write data by your container and as such you will have long waits which will cause the CPU usage going high for doing nothing, basically, just waiting for the data.

  • Kind of..

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