What do you guys think if these KVM plans?

zachfedora

We're deploying a new node in the next few days and I was just wondering what the community thought about our KVM plans.

First off, I'll give you guys some info about the node:

• Intel Core i7 processor
• 24GB DDR3 RAM
• 4x1TB drives/RAID10
• 1x1TB drive backup (+ offsite backups to a different location)

I'll be sure to upgrade the RAM as needed.

Now the packages:

"vdAlpha"

• 1GB RAM
• 1 Core
• 60GB Disk
• 2TB Bandwidth
• 100Mbit port
• $9.00/m

"vdBeta"

• 2GB RAM
• 2 Cores
• 120GB Disk
• 4TB Bandwidth
• 150Mbit port
• $15.00/m

"vdGamma"

• 4GB RAM
• 4 Cores
• 240GB Disk
• 200Mbit port
• $28.00/m

Any recommendations/criticisms/feedback? I know you guys can't test the network or anything yet, but I just wanted your opinion on our pricing/package structure.

Note: I know these plans aren't LEB priced, I just wanted your guys' opinions on them. Not an offer thread.

Thanks

HalfEatenPie

@zachfedora said: Intel Core i7 processor

This I find probably the biggest problem. Personally, I don't think a desktop core is good for server use. (I'd rather use E3s)

@zachfedora said: 24GB DDR3 RAM

Is this ECC?

Pricing wise, fit whatever price you think you need, although do understand this is LET and people will complain about the price.

zachfedora

@HalfEatenPie I figured that the i7 would bother some as well. The server doesn't have ECC ram, it didn't fit into the budget to get all new server hardware, though we do plan to buy some more servers once business picks up a bit.

I also made note that the plans aren't LEB, I just wanted a few opinions. I will be doing some LEB KVM specials, however.

Thanks

Also, what SPLA reseller do you guys use?

HalfEatenPie

@zachfedora said: The server doesn't have ECC ram

CPU and the RAM is the biggest turn off personally for me. I honestly would have spent that money on used hardware then (you can get cheap E3s for like 600/700 used).

zachfedora

@HalfEatenPie I figured that'd be the case. We've had this server for a while, hasn't been doing much so I figured I'd just rack it. The hardware is definitely solid though, great I/O too.

Here's a test I took a while back

root@ [~]# dd if=/dev/zero of=test bs=64k count=16k conv=fdatasync
16384+0 records in
16384+0 records out
1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB) copied, 2.65409 s, 405 MB/s

Taz

Desktop grade hardware? Seriously?

zachfedora

@Taz Knew I'd get some flak for that, oh well, it's not like we're the only ones anyway. It's actually very good hardware to be honest. We've just had the server for a while and just wanted to see what it could do in a datacenter.

Maounique

It might not do the trick for 24 GB ram, even 16 will be a bit iffy, at that price ppl would expect stellar performance, KVM is asking a lot from CPU...
Heck, our 1 GB ram windows 2008 server, with 2 cores of 24 logical E5 cores on 64 gb ram server and SAS2 storage, 1 gb port (tho only 32 gb space) is much cheaper...

Taz

Show me one who is successful and using desktops.

zachfedora

@Taz I never said successful

@Maounique Thanks for the feedback! The prices aren't set in stone, we're actually pretty flexible with pricing. Given the hardware, what would you recommend?

HalfEatenPie

@zachfedora: Good luck with that then. Definitely would like to see how it goes!

Personally though, as much as I love dd, the CPU and RAM (ECC or not) is probably the most important for me. Actually...

The Important List for HalfEatenPie
1. CPU
2. RAM (ECC or not)
3. Network
4. I/O
5. Amount of RAM
6. Number of Cores (plus what speed)
7. Hard Drive Space

Pricing wise, I'd put it much lower (due to the desktop grade hardware).

zachfedora

@HalfEatenPie Yeah I'll definitely be lowering the price, I'll try to figure out a pricing structure and post it here.

Thanks

HalfEatenPie

@zachfedora said: Yeah I'll definitely be lowering the price, I'll try to figure out a pricing structure and post it here.

Yeah good luck. If it was hardware grade (ECC RAM and awesome CPU) then yeah totally I'd be fine with that!

Maounique

@zachfedora said: Given the hardware, what would you recommend?

That is a problem, if you go too low with pricing you will need to make more small VPSes and that will further put strain on HW.
7 $ is the most i would pay, even so other ppl will have a lower price for it on better hardware.
If you already had the server, fine, put it up, compute the power and bw+spare parts, do a budget, multiply with 2 for extra costs, and you have a base price.

zachfedora

@HalfEatenPie Well since the server has paid for itself already, if I can cover the colo costs, I should be fine. Thanks for the help.

@Maounique yeah, pretty much stuck between a rock and a hard place with the hardware haha

I'd be more than happy to give out test servers once it's all setup, just shoot me a PM to test out the network, hardware, etc.

EricCubixCloud

You do realize the possibility of failure of ECC RAM compared to "desktop RAM" is not very different?

Nick_A

Upgrading the RAM as in taking the node offline periodically as you add more clients?

EricCubixCloud

And to add on to that: we have mixture of E3, E5 and i7 servers. No problems at all with the "desktop" hardware-- granted, the CPU loads never hit 50%.

zachfedora

@Nick_A No I figured I'd just download some more RAM... Kidding , but yeah, if there's a decent turn out to where I need to add RAM, I'll buy some more, ship it to the DC, and have the colo techs take it offline for a minute and install the RAM.

@EricCubixCloud Thanks for the input! I really don't see a huge issue with desktop hardware. But I do see where people are coming from when they expect server hardware.

Maounique

@zachfedora said: if there's a decent turn out to where I need to add RAM

imo, 24 gb for that cpu is a lot already, adding more and putting up more VPSes is asking for trouble, that is, if we dont consider the storage at all..
However, if it is stable and usage low, that can be done, but I doubt.

zachfedora

@Maounique The CPU (i7 2600) is actually pretty decent, comparable to some Xeon E3's

Again, if you guys want to test out a server, just send me a PM and I'll have one ready for you when the server is setup.

marcm

@zachfedora - what datacenter?

zachfedora

@marcm Datashack to get us started, then we'll migrate to, most likely, Steadfast Networks in Chicago.

marcm

@zachfedora - Well since you wanted our opinion, I will ask you this:

• Do you have any kind of business plan? Do you have a long term plan for this business that is sustainable?
• Have you calculated your margins, and if so, what are they?
• What kind of ROI (return on investment) do you anticipate?
• Do you have any kind of capital to start with?
• Do you have a contingency plan in case that you drive the business into the ground?
• How do you plan to advertise? What is your advertising budget?
• Are you going to do this full time or part time?
• Do you poses the knowledge to properly administer and secure the servers and provide proper and knowledgeable technical support?
• The most important question: Why do you want to do this?

zachfedora

@marcm I only was looking for opinions on the packages, I have already thought out my business goals and plans. But thank you, good questions to revisit every once in a while.

marcm

@zachfedora - Apparently you haven't thought hard enough because you haven't started yet and you are already trying to compete by price. You have to first grow a little bit before you can try and compete by lowering prices, otherwise your business will never take off. Or think about it this way: customers who purchase 4GB or larger KVM VPS servers, or Xen for that matter, usually run an online business, and their livelihood depends on it. They will not care if they save a couple of bucks a month, or even $10, $20 or $50 dollars if it means that their server is always going to be online and well taken care of. So no, if I was in the market for a VPS to run a business that my livelihood depended on I would be looking for reliability first, time in business, some reviews ... pricing would be the last thing on my mind. No, I wouldn't blindly throw money at it, but by no means would pricing be the most important factor. So if competing by pricing yourself as low as possible is your only plan, then I wish you the best of luck with it, as you won't get very far.

zachfedora

@marcm I have actually started, the turn out has been decent, not as much as I expected, but it is sustainable. Am I making a large profit? No.

But I do completely agree with your point of getting into a market and trying to lower prices right away, not a good business practice.

marcm

@zachfedora - This December on the 15th I'll have a year in this business. When I started out it was called drupalcentric.com. I have been playing with virtualization since the late 90's (1997) and throughout the 2000's. Anyway, as much as I wanted to build servers using desktop hardware, and as tempting as it was because of lower prices, I can tell you that I have always resisted that temptation because I have always considered reliability, and I don't regret it. I can honestly tell you that in one year I never had a kernel panic or a node crash (running KVM or Xen). ECC RAM has its purpose, so don't ignore it. Lower prices will bring in more clients short term, but if the enterprise reliability isn't there and the frustration compounds in your customers then it can be very damaging to your reputation. Another factor to consider is how fast will your data center (Datashack in this case) replace your hardware if it goes bad and how responsive they are when it comes to providing you with KVMIP or IPMI (that would be nice) when needed. Unfortunately all of these factors have to be considered. Everyone wants everything as cheap as possible, including me, but ultimately if I am frustrated with a product/service I just want my product or service fixed so I can work, no matter what it costs. If you think that you can make this work while maintaining excellent reliability and up-time then go for it, otherwise increase prices and get better hardware and go to a bigger data center. Datashack is good for what it is, but it was never meant for hosting providers.

zachfedora

@marcm When I said "I already have started" I meant as in this month started. With that said, we all have to start somewhere, and I feel that this is a perfect starting point for me to build off of. I'm not targeting the enterprise market, I'm trying to target casual clients and maybe some small businesses - the clients that don't go absolutely insane if I am using desktop hardware. I need to grow as a company first, and I feel Datashack is a great company to grow with.

I appreciate your help, but I am more than capable of running and growing my own business.

Maounique

I will point out what will or might happen now:
1. Abuse reports will reach the datacenter;
2. The datacenter will put pressure on you;
3. you will terminate the abusers;
4. they will chargeback on you and some negative (scam) posts on various hosting forums;
5. You will realize most ppl you host are abusers (if you didnt started with those you know);
6. You will see that the money you thought you earned are going on chargeback fees and/or overages/abuse fees from the datacenter;
7. If, by now, the dc didnt kick you already, the threat might still loom and the second month fees are coming.
Question is, will you pay up or drop the towel ?
You need to prepare for these events.
If you are selling at high prices, that is not very likely, but at low/medium prices is almost certain.
Dont want to scare you, just help prepare.

rsk

@Maounique said: If you are selling at high prices, that is not very likely, but at low/medium prices is almost certain.

This is the most true statement I have read. Take is as advice