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[OnAPP] Start your cloud revolution! Join the demo on May 12th
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[OnAPP] Start your cloud revolution! Join the demo on May 12th

jmginerjmginer Member, Patron Provider

I've just received this email.

Life's getting tough for cloud providers. When you're faced with the scale, reach and product range of the megaclouds - companies like Amazon, Google and Microsoft - how can you possibly compete?

We'd like to show you how. We're bringing the world's cloud providers together, and enabling everyone to share resources, on demand.

When everyone has instant access to a global pool of cloud resources, anyone can compete with the megaclouds.

This is the cloud revolution. Join our demo on May 12th and be part of it. 

With thanks,
The OnApp team 

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Comments

  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited April 2015

    eh, so useless, they do not even have plans for legal issues with their "deploy on another customers infrastructure" idea...

  • ditlevditlev Member, Top Host, Host Rep
    edited April 2015

    @William said:
    eh, so useless, they do not even have plans for legal issues with their "deploy on another customers infrastructure" idea...

    Hi William :)

    Did you have legal concerns about our project you'd like to discuss?

    I'm at [email protected] << and I'd love to hear from you!

    We've really put in a lot of effort to the legal aspects of our federation projects. Both with our internal legal council, but also by investing heavily into external advice from industry legal experts and lawyers. However, I'd love to get your input - there may be scenarios we've not considered.

    :)

    D

    Thanked by 3MikePT Clouvider Dylan
  • MikePTMikePT Moderator, Patron Provider, Veteran

    @ditlev,

    Long time no see/talk, it's been a few years!

    Do you have any ETA for the new SolusVM version? We're looking forward to test it!

  • ditlevditlev Member, Top Host, Host Rep

    weeks ... weeks rather than months, Miguel :)

    Thanked by 2MikePT Clouvider
  • MikePTMikePT Moderator, Patron Provider, Veteran
    edited April 2015

    @ditlev said:
    weeks ... weeks rather than months, Miguel :)

    Ok, you just got me reaaaaaaally excited! I wake up and I always go to the SolusVM blog to see if you guys have released!

    Best luck with it, Ditlev, I'll surely do my best reporting bugs/feedback in general :-).

    Thank you for the fast answer!

    Thanked by 1ditlev
  • ditlevditlev Member, Top Host, Host Rep

    and Solus will also be part of the federation project btw...

    Thanked by 2MikePT Clouvider
  • ditlev said: I'm at [email protected] << and I'd love to hear from you!

    My question is simple:

    Customer A spins up VM at ISP A, Customer A now does something illegal and ISP A gets raided - As ISP A does not get any customer data from you he is liable (as he cannot claim provider privileges then), how is this solved without violating EU/US customer privacy laws (as customer data transfer to a/via company outside the EU is not legal without explicit customer consent (a ToS remark is not enough)?

    Thanked by 1vimalware
  • MikePTMikePT Moderator, Patron Provider, Veteran

    @ditlev said:
    and Solus will also be part of the federation project btw...

    Sounds great, I'd love to know more about it. :)

  • @William - there are a lot more issues than this and also where does liability start and where does it end. This is just one big legal minefield.

  • ditlevditlev Member, Top Host, Host Rep
    edited April 2015

    @William said: My question is simple:Customer A spins up VM at ISP A, Customer A now does something illegal and ISP A gets raided - As ISP A does not get any customer data from you he is liable (as he cannot claim provider privileges then), how is this solved without violating EU/US customer privacy laws (as customer data transfer to a/via company outside the EU is not legal without explicit customer consent (a ToS remark is not enough)?

    I am not sure I totally understand.

    How is this different from a datacenter (Interxion, equinix etc), or a bandwidth provider (Level3/Internap/etc) selling services to a hoster that is then providing that to clients of their own?

    Level3/InterXion has no direct client relationship (with the consumer, end user) and would have no way of mediating the direct contact to the actual potential culprit. They are 'just' providing a service that is repackaged and resold?

    Or different from really any other reseller account. Back when I ran UK2/100tb/etc around 30% of our revenue came from resellers. I had no idea who the actual end 'consumer' was, I only knew the reseller - and if I had issues (which I very rarely had across 27000 physical servers), I'd direct them at the reseller. This would be no different. Right?

    My point is that everyone in the industry are reselling something. No-one (like, almost none) are providing the full end to end service only using fully owned infrastructure. Ie. service providers are typically not building their own power plants, their own private networks, ISP's, Datacenters, etc etc. And the suppliers of those services have no control of the consumers.

    We have systems in place to allow sellers to rate buyers though. So, IF this were to happen the seller could leave a bad review to warn other sellers (and us), which would eventually kick out the hosting company as a supplier all together.

    The OnApp federation is an attempt at automating this whole process - making it super easy for any service provider to spin up infrastructure at any scale, in any location, at any time. With no upfront payments (CAPEX).

    AND - it's a way for you to sell your spare capacity to other service providers looking for infrastructure in your location.

    We think this is the only way for us - as an industry - to compete with the megahosters. Just like AirBnB is giving Hilton a hard time, together we could give AWS a hard time :)

    :)

    D

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited April 2015

    I am not sure I totally understand. How is this different from a datacenter (Interxion, equinox etc), or a bandwidth provider (Level3/Internap/etc) selling services to a hoster that is then providing that to clients of their own?

    The DC HAS their customers data and can hand it out, the DC is likely also located in the same jurisdiction. Police would ask the transit provider (IP/AS owner) for the data, he would either hand it out or refer to his customer which then has data to give out.

    With you on the other hand i rent ressources from lets say Online - Online does not get my customer data as you are the point of sale, now i rape it and run something illegal.

    Police will go to Online (IP owner), Online has no customer data (only yours) and can't give them anything - As they have no data they are possibly liable (KYC laws) for the issue now (not sure in France but this applies 100% in Germany, Austria and most of the EU, see Telemediengesetz/DE).

    Now if you give the Police (which is NOT in your jurisdiction) customer data you violate EU directives for data protection (migration of data across non-EU borders if foreign agency, personal data protection if EU) unless the customer explicitely allowed it, this gets only more and more complicated when customer is in country A, you in B, ISP in C and the Datacenter in D.

  • ditlevditlev Member, Top Host, Host Rep
    edited April 2015

    @William said:The DC HAS their customers data and can hand it out (...)

    No they dont? If a hosting provider buys rackspace/power at InterXion and builds services that it resells to their clientbase. InterXion would not have a direct relationship with the actual consumers - only the hostingprovider (ie. the reseller). This is no different from a legal standpoint.
    This is the same legal scenario as any other reseller (which, I am guessing, is like 30% of the industry, and 90% of LET) situation.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • No they dont? If a hosting provider buys rackspace/power at InterXion and builds services that it resells to their clientbase.

    You wot m8? Why would the police go to the DC at all? This is 100% irrelevant.

    This is no different from a legal standpoint. This is the same legal sitation as any other reseller (which, I am guessing, is like 30% of the industry, and 90% of LET) situation.

    No it is not, read my post again and ask your legal counsel.
    As Mark said this is a legal minefield alone with the crossing of possibly 5 or more jurisdictions.

  • William

    In this case the provider also has the customer's data, the customer is OnApp, the contractual agreement is between the provider and us.

    Following that, in case of abuse regular legal procedure is to follow, this is no different that a channel or reseller chain, from a legal standpoint, this is nothing new.

  • ditlevditlev Member, Top Host, Host Rep
    edited April 2015

    @William said:

    I totally get your point William. Though, let's just play through this.

    Like, when HostGator (EIG) sells http://www.hostgator.com/resellers to other hosters they have no control of who the actual consumers of infrastructure is - we agree so far, right?

    The hoster is effectively the mediator between a consumer looking for infrastructure services, and someone (Hostgator in this case) that has build and offer services.

    Hostgator would only have a direct relationship with the reseller. So when the police comes knocking, that's where HostGator would send them ... to the reseller, who then would have to deal with it.

    So, what I am failing to make clear here I guess is .... this is the same situation.

    OnApp is effectively the reseller here. WE are the ones that would have to deal with the police, and if someone came knocking the door of any of our suppliers in the marketplace they'd have to point to us as WE are the ones buying it and WE would be legally liable.

    Obviously we have a whole bunch of legal agreements that goes all the way from the supplier to through to the buyer in the marketplace, but there is no doubt from our legal advice that this is how the liability flow would work, and it would be OUR problem to deal with - just like in any other reseller scenario in our industry.

    Makes sense? Or am I misunderstanding you here?

    :)

    D

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • What if the VM is deployed in a country that does not have provider liability protection laws (i.e. Korea and Hongkong) - The enduser for the local police is then OnApp, no matter if used by a customer of yours or not... again, with crossing that many jurisdictions it is far from clear what happens in an abuse case, i would lawyer up extremely before even thinking about running something like that.

  • ditlevditlev Member, Top Host, Host Rep
    edited April 2015

    @William said:
    What if the VM is deployed in a country that does not have provider liability protection laws (i.e. Korea and Hongkong) - The enduser for the local police is then OnApp, no matter if used by a customer of yours or not... again, with crossing that many jurisdictions it is far from clear what happens in an abuse case,

    Still not totally getting the issue.
    In any situation WE (OnApp) would be the one contracting to buy from the suppliers in the federation AND we're the ones contractually selling to the buyers in the federation.

    @William said: i would lawyer up extremely before even thinking about running something like that.

    We totally have. This has been a 3 year project for us to launch. I've literally invested millions into it and hopefully turned all major stones in the process - that being said, your input is appreciated and I'd love to get more of it.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • @ditlev said:
    and Solus will also be part of the federation project btw...

    I am sure new version of Solus will be good as you're trying your best to make it the best VPS control panel in the market. You've even doubled the development team but one thing which Solus has always missed is support for OVH servers with bare metal hypervisors i.e kvm & xen. Virtualizor has had this since 2012:

    http://www.virtualizor.com/wiki/Setup_OVH

    I think this is something you need to include for new version of Solus.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider
    edited April 2015

    @vpslegend you can do Custom Config in Solus?

    /Offtop/ this thread is about OnApp.

  • @ditlev is OnApp sending anyone to WHD in the USA in May? As the company I work with works with your platform it would be interesting to meet some of your people and put a name with a face.

    Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer my question.

    Cheers!

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @TheLinuxBug http://www.whd.global/cn/whd-usa.php - OnApp is not exhibiting WHD USA, they were exhibiting WHD Global this year.

  • ditlevditlev Member, Top Host, Host Rep
    edited April 2015

    hey :)

    We will have a few guys there from our SF office. And perhaps Ryan from our Utah office would come to WHD as well. They are still making plans.

    We are not exhibiting as mentioned above, we realised too late how cool a conference this will be, so simply did not have time to do it properly. Next year we will most likely go all in, like we do at WHD Global and HostingCon.

    :)

    D

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider
    edited April 2015

    @ditlev you are making me going for WHD USA next year then :).

    Thanked by 1ditlev
  • @ditlev Thanks for the update, hope to see you guys there :)

    Cheers!

    Thanked by 1ditlev
  • vpslegendvpslegend Member
    edited May 2015

    @Clouvider said:
    vpslegend you can do Custom Config in Solus?

    Sorry could not get what you are trying to say. Can you explain?

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    I meant that you can do custom config per VM in Solus that would most likely resolve the OVH issue - wasn't deploying it at OVH myself, so I can't say 1000%, but that's my educated guess :).

  • Any updates, we have been signed up in the Private Branch since it released several months ago and not a word from OnApp. Just keep hearing maybe June, but still not features lists or anything solid.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @kris1351 I would assume it should be released together with OnApp federation (since they have some connected feature set), but that's just my speculation :).

  • DeanDean Member

    What happened on 12th May?

    Thanked by 1Die_Quelle
  • I assume the release is going to be nothing more than beta at this point since no one has feature lists and the private invites didn't seem to go out.

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