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What happened to the REAL Low End Boxes
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What happened to the REAL Low End Boxes

Just having a bit of a rant.. but still.. thought it was relevant to here..

seriously just wondering.. what happened to the REAL Low end boxes..
These days it seems to be all about the most you can get for under $7. what if people only do want the ol' < 128mb vps' with 2gb space etc?
like i do know that it isn't 2008 anymore but i do miss seeing these offers...

That's why i applaud @AnthonySmith and @Oliver for their work on Lowendspirit (Oliver only recently) but i am sure im not the only one that likes seeing offers like this...

In all Honesty (and i don't mean flood the market) but.. in the case of LES.

3€ x 256
-----------------
=768 €
-----------------
768 / 12
-----------------
=64 € /m ($88/m)
-----------------

Now, seriously how many Dedicated Servers can you find for less then $90 a month?.. i can list 100 off the top of my head.

Yes i do know that time isn't free but i see it as if you want to do something with the community and get a EXCELLENT Reputation like the LES Crew.
I'm not saying Everyone Copy LES but.... instead of seeing 8 Core, 16GB RAM, 500GB HDD unmetered 10gbit offers for $7 why not see more of the LOW end stuff again..

/rant

Thanked by 2black Rami
«134

Comments

  • Software got BIGGER

    Thanked by 1darkshire
  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep
    edited June 2014

    Our most popular plans were our 32MB plans (we lowered our 64MB plans to the same price as the old 32MB plans though so we discontinued them). People would buy them in bulk to have DNS servers with geographic redundancy. :)

    I think our 64MB plans will be more appealing when people can migrate them to different data centers so they can move their VPNs to suit their needs.

  • rds100rds100 Member

    @AutoSnipe so why don't you start your own provider and start offering these plans?

  • blackblack Member
    edited June 2014

    @texteditor said:
    Software got BIGGER

    More like hardware got cheaper.

    I agree with you 100% AutoSnipe. The low end spirit is diminishing. It's a race to oversell and push profits instead of pushing the limits on what someone can host on a 128 MB system. I'm focusing on redundancy with LEBs for my new projects because I don't like to put all my eggs in 1 basket.

    Thanked by 2AutoSnipe mpkossen
  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited June 2014

    said: why not see more of the LOW end stuff again

    • RAM became cheaper and you can now have 128-384GB of RAM (or even more) in one server;
    • HDD space became ridiculously cheaper;
    • ...at the same time, IPv4 are now scarce and expensive.

    The first two are exactly what's happening in desktop computers too. Now every machine comes with at least 4 GB of RAM (and 8-16 GB is not that expensive to get) and 500-1000GB HDD. So I suppose you would also complain, why so much, where are the true low end desktop PCs with 128-256 MB of RAM and a 20GB hard drive?

    Thanked by 1Dylan
  • rds100rds100 Member

    rm_ said: RAM became cheaper and you can now have 128-384GB of RAM (or even more) in one server;

    Nope. RAM is now more expensive than one or two years ago.

    Thanked by 1AnthonySmith
  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran

    rds100 said: Nope. RAM is now more expensive than one or two years ago.

    Still perhaps an order of magnitude cheaper than in 2008.

  • AutoSnipeAutoSnipe Member
    edited June 2014

    @rds100
    i'm seriously considering it some days.. but i see it as the only thing i wouldn't do is offer services where others are doing the same already, ie. LES (JP, NL etc)

    I'm not saying you need a Duel E5 to do it.. for example.. LES NL is hosted on a X3330.. any complaints heard? nup

    it's entirely possible to make a suitable offer like this using clearance bin servers.. or one off ebay for $40. i'm just saying why doesn't it happen often anymore..

    @rm_ but i don't see why people don't offer IPv4 as NAT that often, it's not like the world NEEDS an ipv4 for EVERY vm.. it's nice sometimes but not an absolute necessity.

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran

    AutoSnipe said: but i don't see why people don't offer IPv4 as NAT that often, it's not like the world NEEDS an ipv4 for EVERY vm.. it's nice sometimes but not an absolute necessity.

    Ask @AnthonySmith, as far as I know an IPv6-only VM even with IPv4 NAT is still far from being a widely understood and accepted product.

  • AutoSnipeAutoSnipe Member
    edited June 2014

    rm_ said: So I suppose you would also complain, why so much

    Give me a break.. i'm using a Laptop with lower specs then the 14euro kimsufi server... and have been for years..

    I honestly don't see why this wouldnt be an accepted product.. with everyone going ipv4 crazy.. i think it is a acceptable product especially for the transition over, Datacentre's all over the place still don't have IPv6 CC (if they haven't added it already but doubtful)

    and i see it as quite a excellent use for the 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 IPv6 addresses that come with a lot of servers...

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    Maybe when IPv4 is exhausted and can't be had for pennies a year, then IPv4 NAT will be more common. I've personally switched over to IPv6 for the majority of my daily internet usage (except at work, where they aren't planning on supporting IPv6).

    Thanked by 1mpkossen
  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited June 2014

    AutoSnipe said: Give me a break.. i'm using a Laptop with lower specs then the 14euro kimsufi server... and have been for years..

    But you don't go and ask on hardware forums, why new laptops with the same specs are not offered anymore.

    AutoSnipe said: and i see it as quite a excellent use for the 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 IPv6 addresses that come with a lot of servers...

    As a side note, that shows you are not familiar with IPv6 enough yet; the number of IPs in a /64 is really not a figure that's worthy of being thrown around or impressed of; it's just one subnet, and the best practices demand that you allocate one such subnet per end-user, if not for anything else (e.g. IPv6 VPN with SLAAC), then for isolation of customers from each other from the point of view of spam filters and other blocklists.

    An example of what happens when you stuff all customers into the same /64:
    http://s.lowendshare.com/5/1404128040.152.2014-06-12T160017Z-google.png
    and that's about the lightest of the problems to arise.

    Thanked by 1Pwner
  • i know what you mean and i do understand it the same way, but im saying that you could use them for a better use..

  • ATHKATHK Member

    @Oliver is only low end because everything over here in Australia is so damn expensive....

    :P he does run a top notch service.

    Thanked by 10xdragon
  • Mark_RMark_R Member

    I still cannot believe that you complain about getting more resources than you need. If it is such a problem for you then ask your current provider to reduce the vps specs I'm pretty sure that they dont mind giving you less for what you pay.

  • AutoSnipeAutoSnipe Member
    edited June 2014

    @ATHK Agreed.. have you seen how much Micron21 charges!.. i nearly fell off my chair...
    and he does do it quite well..

    @Mark_R .. it's beside the point in reality.. it's no fun asking a host going oii give me 64mb.. they will sit there and laugh at you.. where as if it's offered, people will more then likely go for it.. put it like the reaction to LES JP and AU.. i guarantee at least 50% of the people that read that thread had their eyes light up..

  • AutoSnipe said: why not see more of the LOW end stuff again.

    I think the primary reason is that the audience has changed. Old school (do-the-most-with-the-least) users are in a tiny minority these days. Most new users are focused on grabbing the most resources for the least expense. So the market evolves to satisfy them.

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    desktop ram is pretty cheap but ram is more expensive than I can remember for servers for a long time, not only that but servers that can take the 128 - 384GB Ram are about 4 x the price of the E3's with only 32GB Ram.

    @AutoSnipe honestly as someone who pushed that agenda a lot in the last few years, frankly the bottom fell out of the real low end market and to focus only on that is commercial suicide these days.

    The race to the bottom started (visibly) around 2 years ago, a lot of the old hats here have talked about it privately, most of us are playing it safe while playing the waiting game.

    The 'race' IMO is in its final stages now, that is why you are seeing so many hosts dead pooling right now (even burstnet), it started with cvps offering 2GB OpenVZ nodes, everyone was a bit taken back, so many people thought it was to good to be true and bought them, and you know what, they were fine!

    What Chris did was quite clever, as a decent sized host with a fair bit of competition in the LE Arena he put out what back then was considered an insane package, because it was OpenVZ he managed this by simply doubling the oversell ratio to (best guess) 8:1 which OpenVZ can handle with no problem.

    A few hosts followed until it became normal, after that the final nail in the coffin was when uncle Sal (I assume he & Mao recognized what was going on) duplicated what CVPS had done a year earlier (ish) by launching overzold giving people about 5GB Ram (iirc) for under $7.

    Because humans are well.... human, they did not really care about the fact it was designed as a low support, purposely oversold model and lapped it up with the same expectations as enterprise grade anyway.

    By this time it was no longer uncommon to see huge ram deals, it was clear that is what people wanted, now people are launching in to the market knowingly with at a loss products in the hope of up sell, look at all these dead pools in recent weeks offering 100GB SSD and 2GB Ram for $7 etc, unless it is fully owned end to end you will not make any money at that and if it is fully owned end to end you probably would not be in the LE Arena to begin with.

    The equation is simple (I found this because of LES) offer lots for less and you get lots of praise and thanks and promotion that self perpetuates in to more praise and thanks and obviously sales, then you end up jumping up the ranks in the provider voting contest (Inception went from obscurity to low 20's late teens to number 7 straight after LES got known) which again leads to more self perpetuating sales.

    So in essence no one offers real LEB's any more because most people don't want them, for those that do LES and a select few others fills that gap.

    Not quite as simple numbers wise as you have typed though, for every €3.00 after fee's you get €2.55.

    €2.55 x 254 = €647

    €647 / 12 = 53.97

    €55.97 - solusvm license = €46.97

    NL LES Node cost = €52.00 p/month :)

    And all of that is based on 100% sell from day 1, that simply does not happen, some nodes have more than 254 containers as well, best estimates each node will just about move in to tiny profit after 18 months of service, NL node is around 13 months in now (and the most densely populated one) I think.

    And for anyone wondering:

    # free -m
                 total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
    Mem:          7851       7385        465          0        746       3333
    -/+ buffers/cache:       3305       4545
    Swap:         4095       1339       2756
    
    
    # vzlist | grep 192.168 | wc -l
    432
    
    /dev/sda:
     Timing cached reads:   3070 MB in  2.00 seconds = 1534.96 MB/sec
     Timing buffered disk reads: 266 MB in  3.01 seconds =  88.23 MB/sec
    
    Tasks: 5192 total,   3 running, 5186 sleeping,   0 stopped,   3 zombie
    Cpu(s): 34.1%us, 31.6%sy,  0.0%ni, 30.6%id,  0.9%wa,  0.1%hi,  2.8%si,  0.0%st
    
    

    And for all those containers see how a 64mb one functions on that node running a LLMP stack http://forum.lowendspirit.com

    Some people like to do more with less, other people like to take the american big gulp approach of I am thirsty so I will buy a 2 gallon drink just in case I want more than 4oz/ 330cl, (sorry Americans I could not think of a better example, and yes I know it is a stereotype)

    Everyone is different, I doubt the real LEB market will ever settle back at the 64/128mb range again and that is in part due to the dwindling IPv4 pools, I dont know when this final phase will be over, best guess 12 - 18 months from now a more stable market in terms of mb/$ will emerge, in the mean time if you see that KVM offer that is to good to be true or even on the borderline of that then please.... keep backups.

    HOLY EPIC RESPONSE!

    Sorry, I get overly mentally intangled in this particular topic :p

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    @rm_ said:
    Ask AnthonySmith, as far as I know an IPv6-only VM even with IPv4 NAT is still far from being a widely understood and accepted product.

    That is true yes, although I would say it is getting a little better (not much).

  • @AnthonySmith - Wow... Wow... i had to go get another coffee before reading that..

    but on that note, if BlueVM got IPv6 working on Feathur (unsure if it is as of yet) That very well could cancel out you're solusvm bill (except if you are using it for IH as well)

    but what i am saying is that there is still a market for these boxes.. i for one prefer a low spec box from a good company that i know is going to last rather then a 4GB vps from a Mazker or GVH wanna be brand for $2.50 with 12 ipv4 and IO of 1mb/s

    and noticing that i-83 has FR and BG one's i would absolutely get one of them too if they were still in stock of the BG ones at least.

    in all realism how often do people with their massive overkill oversold boxes use even 25% of resources allocated..

  • drserverdrserver Member, Host Rep

    Our new Ninjas will be true low end boxes. Prices will be 0.5 usd, 0.7 usd and 0.9 usd.
    all payable monthly with ipv6 and ipv4 as addon.

    http://demo.dirtcheap.ninja/

    more to come soon

    Thanked by 2netomx ihatetonyy
  • drserverdrserver Member, Host Rep

    @AnthonySmith my personal opinion is that you are making much more for this community with low end spirit than that you do for your self.

    You are running something bare profitable / unprofitable for better of community. There is no much ppl here who will do the same. Hat down.

  • blackblack Member

    For me it's not really about the price per VM and what not, it's the clever things a host does, from a technical perspective. Drawing some examples from BuyVM... from what I remember, they were the first to do SSD caching so people would get more IOPs. MySQL were probably one of the reasons for the slowness on their nodes so they offered MySQL offloading. They brought DDoS filtered IPs at a very affordable price. All these "features" surrounding their VM made things more attractive to me, personally.

    Meanwhile, a pretty knowledgeable community formed around it. DIY was sort of the norm. People made stuff and shared it, both providers and users. Software that's not "mainstream" gets posted here and people would discuss it.


    Now days, GVH thread 24x7, "500GB disk & 1Gbps unmetered where can I buy?", "Why doesn't this work, please give full ssh command so I can fix server", "blah blah blah specs, can you find server for me?" It's quite a noticeable difference in terms of content. The nerdy geeks from the basement have been replaced with shoppers that want to find a cheap deal and hosts that offers it. It's more of an advertising forum than it was a few years ago.

    Thanked by 2mike0000 ihatetonyy
  • NekkiNekki Veteran

    drserver said: Our new Ninjas will be true low end boxes. Prices will be 0.5 usd, 0.7 usd and 0.9 usd. all payable monthly with ipv6 and ipv4 as addon.
    http://demo.dirtcheap.ninja/

    You're nuts and I love you.

  • drserverdrserver Member, Host Rep

    @Nekki said:
    You're nuts and I love you.

    Awwww.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited June 2014

    The forum got bigger. The old ones are no longer living on cheap junk food and beer, they might have families to feed, houses to maintain, health insurance to pay, not to mention cars. Doing things for fun and community takes more and more of a backseat.
    The forum became commercial as well as LEB, it all adds up, but it does not really matter, it is still one of the quality forums where there are not many stiffs to tell you what you can say and what you cant, how you are tolerated as long as you agree with the admins and you are being done a favour for being allowed to be a member or to have a signature within the rules.
    I hate elitist, so I have to put up with lower quality too, freedom of speech is more important than being accepted among the "elites".
    And, low end box can be a 5 GB ram box, low end support, low end uptime (compared to our Xen servers, OVZ and especially OVerZold servers have an abismal uptime record, between 100-200 days uptime in average, not counting the planned maintenance and stuff). It also means a low end price, this is about what you can buy with 7 $ or less and it gives you full root access.
    I can have a low end house, big one, but not really well located or not really well maintained or not really well built and still be low end, east end vs west end if we are at the ending stuff.

  • wychwych Member

    I offered some, nobody bought them...

  • NekkiNekki Veteran

    wych said: I offered some, nobody bought them...

    TUN/TAP is important.

  • wychwych Member

    @Nekki said:
    TUN/TAP is important.

    They had TUN/TAP available... ;) Feathur was on that node not Proxmox.

  • NekkiNekki Veteran

    wych said: They had TUN/TAP available... ;) Feathur was on that node not Proxmox.

    I was never aware of these plans.

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