Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Advertise on LowEndTalk.com
Netherlands Privacy
New on LowEndTalk? Please read our 'Community Rules' by clicking on it in the right menu!

Netherlands Privacy

How exactly do privacy laws in Netherlands pan out?

I understand they control the world's largest internet exchange and there's a pretty good chance that the NSA is tapping the exchange in Amsterdam.

How exactly do NL privacy laws pan out for email services and VPS servers? Can I have a reasonable expectation of privacy under the jurisdiction of the Netherlands?

Comments

  • said: Can I have a reasonable expectation of privacy under the jurisdiction of the Netherlands?

    Yes, almost everywhere if you have good cryptography skills and sound aliases, the kind they can only track if they bring a subpoena to the bank.

    Extremist conservative user, I wish to preserve human and civil rights, free speech, freedom of the press and worship, rule of law, democracy, peace and prosperity, social mobility, etc. Now you can draw your guns.

  • @darknyan said:
    How exactly do privacy laws in Netherlands pan out?

    I understand they control the world's largest internet exchange and there's a pretty good chance that the NSA is tapping the exchange in Amsterdam.

    How exactly do NL privacy laws pan out for email services and VPS servers? Can I have a reasonable expectation of privacy under the jurisdiction of the Netherlands?

    Nope, if you do something illegal you are screwed.

    Servitor.io - Server and website monitoring. Free to use!

  • GunterGunter Member
    edited April 2014

    taronyu said: Nope, if you do something illegal you are screwed.

    Clearly I'm not doing anything illegal. I just meant how hard would it be for law enforcement to submit a subpoena? What level of cooperation exists between the Netherlands and the United States of America?

  • iceTwyiceTwy Member
    edited April 2014

    @darknyan said:

    The Dutch do cooperate with the NSA because they're "third-party partners".

    Plus, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Netherlands were helping out the NSA just like the Swedish do.

    Of course, the NL are still in the EU and there are, as such, official privacy laws. But spy agencies try to exploit loopholes in laws in every possible way, let alone the fact that they can go through secret courts to bypass these laws by receiving special exceptions (à la NSA really). There's no reason for the AIVD not to do so. The same can be said of Germany.

    As for servers in general - don't ever expect to have a secure server. If you want privacy, then you should use cryptography, but there's still one ultimate flaw; you don't have physical access over your server. If a spy agency requests any data from your server, there's hardly any chance they won't get it; both the hosting provider and the datacenter will be compelled to carry out the order.

    It's a piece of cake to retrieve sensitive data after that.

  • I think NL can be dangerous at times. Their fight against piracy suggests a certain tendency towards US cooperation. The exchange tap situation is possible. The privacy comes from some Dutch private companies' efforts I think. Some ISPs are more inclined towards their users' rights. Same goes for some DCs in my opinion.

    CEO, CTO, Technician, Network Specialist, Tech Support, Janitor @ Spring Break Worldwide Networks (Delaware) LLP, a subsidiary of Oversold Craphost Shelf Company (UK) LLC and Scriptkiddie International Telecommunications Pty Ltd (India)

  • @iceTwy said:
    It's a piece of cake to retrieve sensitive data after that.

    CyberBunker is probably the best option to go for if you are after the best possible privacy in the Netherlands...

  • said: pretty good chance that the NSA is tapping the exchange in Amsterdam

    The NSA is not as powerful as the news makes them seem. Use basic encryption (high-end encryption puts you on a list) and use crowed blending to appear normal and you're more than safe. How many people in the world - billions. How many people at the NSA what can perform any analysis - 20.

  • Actually, there is one thing for NSA to spy on you and quite another to know it is you without a court intervention. You can fight on both fronts, first by using encryption wisely, second by using a proxy they can't trace unless going to the bank with a subpoena and banks are not keen to be known as spy-friendly and it is also superbad legally speaking if they do. You can ask for huge damages and they will have to pay.

    Extremist conservative user, I wish to preserve human and civil rights, free speech, freedom of the press and worship, rule of law, democracy, peace and prosperity, social mobility, etc. Now you can draw your guns.

  • Norway has much superior internet privacy laws, if you are seriously concerned with privacy, look into hosting in Norway.

  • North Korea is a good option if you worry about privacy :)

  • tchentchen Member

    @darknyan said:

    >

    How exactly do NL privacy laws pan out for email services and VPS servers? Can I have a reasonable expectation of privacy under the jurisdiction of the Netherlands?

    From the Netherlands entry in https://www.privacyinternational.org/blog/privacy-in-constitutions-the-data which has compiled a list of constitutional rights in privacy,

    Article 13 states, "(1) The privacy of correspondence shall not be violated except, in the cases laid down by Act of Parliament, by order of the courts. (2) The privacy of the telephone and telegraph shall not be violated except, in the cases laid down by Act of Parliament, by or with the authorization of those designated for the purpose by Act of Parliament."

    Interception of communications is regulated by the criminal code and requires a court order. In November 1997, XS4ALL, a Dutch ISP, refused to conduct a broad wiretap of electronic communications of one of their subscribers. **A bill to expand wiretapping powers to require that all telecommunications services make their systems wiretap capable was approved by the Lower Chamber of the Dutch Parliament in April 1998. A survey by the Dutch Ministry of Justice in 1996 found that police in the Netherlands intercept more telephone calls than their counterparts in the United States, Germany or Britain. **The Parliamentary Investigations Commission into police methods released a 4700 page report in 1996. The report was critical of legal controls on police surveillance and found that there was a failure among judges, prosecutors and other officials to limit police abuses.

    As for citizens, you are granted an explicit right to privacy under Article 10. It doesn't exclude gathering, but does lay out rules for notification.

    Constitutional rights aside, nothing excludes the international spying community from monitoring NL exchanges secretly other than being publicly caught. The NSA does not need to get permission from the Dutch court system - only the Dutch police does.

  • @Silvenga said:
    The NSA is not as powerful as the news makes them seem. Use basic encryption (high-end encryption puts you on a list)

    Then you're better off not using encryption at all, in the case you don't want to be "put on a list". If you won't take crypto seriously, it's no use trying.

    @Silvenga said:
    How many people at the NSA what can perform any analysis - 20.

    Have a look at this wonderful NSA hierarchy map. Would you really think that 20 analysts can run a whole agency? ;)

  • tchentchen Member

    1500 attendee records for the last NSA Sigint Development Conference :P

    http://defense.ge-ip.com/events/nsa-sigint-development-conference-2013/40

    The Conference
    This classified conference will focus on the preeminent intelligence issues facing those who are tasked with SIGINT as part of their mission. Over 1500 participants from the US intelligence community and throughout the world will attend this conference.

    And that's just the people not taking duty shifts.

  • SilvengaSilvenga Member
    edited April 2014

    @iceTwy said:
    Have a look at this wonderful NSA hierarchy map. Would you really think that 20 analysts can run a whole agency? ;)

    Only 20 people have the access of the data to perform analysis. Everyone else is on a need to know bases - very standard.

    iceTwy said: Then you're better off not using encryption at all, in the case you don't want to be "put on a list". If you won't take crypto seriously, it's no use trying.

    Certain encryptions look bad. Using basic encryption. This encryption can be broken but no government has the resources to decrypt everyone's daily data.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Member
    edited April 2014

    Silvenga said: Only 20 people have the access of the data to perform analysis.

    Seems they did a good job convincing you about that. They also said they are not spying on americans, nor on allies, do you think they informed the brazilian president or the german chancelor? And who decides who needs to know what? Even if that was the case? Is it some court? Is it some public hearing? Everyone knows everything, otherwise Snowden, which was not even an official worker there, wouldnt have had the opportunity to find out.
    And even if, officially, they wont be told, who stops agent joe from asking agent dick to wiretap his girlfriend or her friends, or some undesirables from the press? Who is appointing the chiefs of those organizations? Who makes sure they are not named there because they have certain desirable agendas or religious convictions? Would someone be refused just because the stupid constitution is in the way? Security uber alles!

    Silvenga said: Certain encryptions look bad. Using basic encryption. This encryption can be broken but no government has the resources to decrypt everyone's daily data.

    Correct. But they will do it when you become interesting. And you will become interesting as soon as you no longer kiss their ass.

    Extremist conservative user, I wish to preserve human and civil rights, free speech, freedom of the press and worship, rule of law, democracy, peace and prosperity, social mobility, etc. Now you can draw your guns.

  • So many pronouns this late at night.

    Maounique said: They also said they are not spying on americans

    When have they said that? I can't find a quote from any ranking official. Most of what everyone thinks is so hugely exaggerated by the media and other sovereign nations. I hear some things that are not technologically or financially possible. Things like the NSA has a quantum computers that works, or that they can break RSA. The United States does not have the money or natural resources to track every person's communication.

    Maounique said: Snowden

    He had very high security clearance - one of the tops. That is why the United States wanted him back - he knows way too many security protocols, if he was tortured he would be a huge risk.

    Maounique said: wiretap his girlfriend or her friends

    The EU has Directive 2006/24/EC. That is horrible. Mandatory wiretaps. This seems to be the same issue (worst?) - just less media coverage. The US does not require data to be recorded.

    Or what I think is worst: for example, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 in the UK. Mandatory disclosure of all encryption keys. The US court has defended citizens against this type of incriminate.

    The UK just has to ask for keys, at least the NSA can't force information out of the US public.

    Maounique said: ho makes sure they are not named there because they have certain desirable agendas or religious convictions

    The court system. The constitution. Every citizen has the ability to fight the orders of the NSA. Every ISP is able to deny the unlawful use of wiretaps. There are more DMCA notices written then wiretaps made.

    Let's say the NSA did not use the courts. What criminal action could they take? They would not have the ability to use any evidence that was taken without the court knowledge. The court will always favor the defendant - especially without proof, and even more so when the court is given information that was not obtained through the court.

    Maounique said: But they will do it when you become interesting

    The point is to not look interesting. That's what the whole i2p protocol is based around. Basic probability theory.

    Maounique said: And you will become interesting as soon as you no longer kiss their ass.

    Why the need for logical fallacies?

    Thanked by 1Nickk
  • MaouniqueMaounique Member
    edited April 2014

    Oh, boy, the americans that believe their court system is unbreakable... That checks and balances will always help you and all....

    Silvenga said: He had very high security clearance - one of the tops.

    So, a contractor has higher clearance and can do more than the regular guys there with a clear pedigree. You really believe that, or your are just spewing out propaganda?

    Silvenga said: Mandatory wiretaps.

    There is a big difference. Nobody is allowed to see those without a court order, while NSA can look and get the proof for a court order. They dont have to say how they got it, national security. They dont even need to go to courts, they can blackmail people or use it to force undesirables to quit, like Petraeus. They can blackmail judges and then they will get their court order, they can blackmail the elected officials and then they will get their laws, fuck the constitution. You are living in a dream world, reality is different.

    Silvenga said: The court system. The constitution. Every citizen has the ability to fight the orders of the NSA. Every ISP is able to deny the unlawful use of wiretaps.

    The same is in EU, even more, we have a court of human rights. Why would it be better in US? Here you can also afford litigation.

    Silvenga said: The point is to not look interesting.

    Really. So, since you use encryption, you have something to hide, therefore the police must take you as suspect and you need to prove their methods are illegal and their evidence should not be allowed in court.
    You cant afford that so you are automatically convicted. If not convicted you can be blackmailed. In communism (china, russia) they fabricate stuff, you said something bad, you must not be paying your taxes, or even mentally ill, the only way to escape is to stay put and take cover so you dont become interesting. No law will protect you even in US, McCarthy was a little kid compared to the arsenal the people have today to nail you, even if you did nothing wrong. they can get suspicious and throw you in guantanamo, fuck the international law, fuck the human rights, we can always kidnap people in the street when we dont have evidence, soon we will be able to disappear them and nobody will say anything because either the law will not allow to question national security or they know a few cases of people which did protest and nobody heard of since.

    And that is only the beginning, one day people will give false testimony just to be able to remain alive, luck will decide who lives and who doesnt, the best thing would be to stay low and not become interesting, but you will be, some police guy will want to get your house, your wife and even your rations or part of them. You do not want to be in that situation. Nobody should be in that situation, not event that cop.

    Extremist conservative user, I wish to preserve human and civil rights, free speech, freedom of the press and worship, rule of law, democracy, peace and prosperity, social mobility, etc. Now you can draw your guns.

  • tchentchen Member

    @Silvenga said:
    Use basic encryption (high-end encryption puts you on a list) and use crowed blending to appear normal and you're more than safe.

    I'm not going to go down Mao's rabbit hole. But out of curiosity, where's the distinction between basic encryption and high-end encryption? Examples?

  • MaouniqueMaounique Member
    edited April 2014

    Thank you for your kind words. He seems to know exactly what NSA can break with the current 20 staffers and what cant, so, probably he means use encryption which can be broken easily and you are off the hook, use encryption which takes a long time to break because they dont hve the natural resources to do it fast and you are a suspect.

    Extremist conservative user, I wish to preserve human and civil rights, free speech, freedom of the press and worship, rule of law, democracy, peace and prosperity, social mobility, etc. Now you can draw your guns.

  • perennateperennate Member, Provider
    edited April 2014

    Silvenga said: How many people at the NSA what can perform any analysis - 20.

    so, link to source? or do we just take your word for it?

    http://www.salon.com/2013/06/11/500000_contractors_can_access_nsa_data_hoards/

    @Silvenga said Every citizen has the ability to fight the orders of the NSA.

    Yes, and then case gets thrown out because the surveillance is secret.

Sign In or Register to comment.