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LeaseWeb Deutschland takes my case to court in Amsterdam. Advise needed. - Page 3
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LeaseWeb Deutschland takes my case to court in Amsterdam. Advise needed.

135

Comments

  • rotkivrotkiv Member
    edited January 2021

    LW sold their debt to collectors. It is very common practice in Europe. You just minimize your losses. Read paper again, it is not "on behalf of leaseweb..." it is "you owe us some money mate...".

    By reading the letter I'm not that sure that the debt has been sold.
    https://www.docdroid.net/r1KYA4N/

    "Client: Leaseweb Deutschland GmbH"

    "The client has therefore requested me to initiate legal proceedings"

    If the debt was sold I guess the client would be the company that bought the debt?

    Another thing I find wierd is that the debt to Leaseweb in Deutschland "will" be handled by a court in Netherlands (and not Deutschland) according to the letter.

    Can a company choose freely in which country a matter should be handled in court. Hmm.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    It's been sold. I can guarantee that.

    And they probably don't expect you to pay. They don't even want you to pay right now. Not much of a profit when you settle your debt so early.

    They will wait.

  • @rotkiv said:

    LW sold their debt to collectors. It is very common practice in Europe. You just minimize your losses. Read paper again, it is not "on behalf of leaseweb..." it is "you owe us some money mate...".

    By reading the letter I'm not that sure that the debt has been sold.
    https://www.docdroid.net/r1KYA4N/

    "Client: Leaseweb Deutschland GmbH"

    "The client has therefore requested me to initiate legal proceedings"

    If the debt was sold I guess the client would be the company that bought the debt?

    Another thing I find wierd is that the debt to Leaseweb in Deutschland "will" be handled by a court in Netherlands (and not Deutschland) according to the letter.

    Can a company choose freely in which country a matter should be handled in court. Hmm.

    Looks like you won't be able to sleep in peace tonight too :smile:

    Type out a few sentences, show your payment made to leaseweb, sign on it, send out registered mail to both leaseweb and the collection company. Are you expecting the mail to cost you 200 euros?!?!

    I think the others' guesses are right, and most likely you now have 600 euro credit with leaseweb but still the same debt with the collection company.

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @rotkiv said:

    Another thing I find wierd is that the debt to Leaseweb in Deutschland "will" be handled by a court in Netherlands (and not Deutschland) according to the letter.

    Can a company choose freely in which country a matter should be handled in court.

    Their headquarters must be in Netherlands, so they handle all procedures from there. And they have local collectors there. And courts. Where shouldn't be much of a deal, but yes, you can raise this question to your benefit also :) To be completely correct, they should sue you in your country, but again, there might be something we have missed in last 22 years :)

    Place, where disputes are solved, should have been mentioned in the contract.

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    Man, calm down and don't read anything in this thread anymore, looks like some forum members want you to commit suicide.

  • They would sue in the name of LeaseWeb because that's who your original contract is with.

    Leaseweb is not in the business of collections, they will will try with a few letters and hope for a response they punt it off if usually after 6 months.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    And you are beginning to have PMS. Calm down. It is not your debt.

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @deank said:
    And you are beginning to have PMS. Calm down.

    I was sure you went through this, thanks for support.

    It is not your debt.

    No, it's just my advice.

  • HosterlabsHosterlabs Member
    edited January 2021

    I received one of those from online.net after they offered a terrible service and I disputed all charges because they ignored consumer laws. But for 5 euros so I just ignored it.

    This is a mental game against you. Get away from the computer and relax! I've been threatened with worse and I know what it feels like. They want you to panic and break. If I were you I would sue back and contact a lawyer. This could be also seen as emotional distress they are purposely inflicting on you. If they do not file the lawsuit, well then is that a threat? You can not proceed until they actually take you to court. They might be bluffing or not. And to take you to court they need to notify you or your business IN PERSON (at least in the US, Mexico and Canada) You can even hide on your home and not open them the door and they will not be able to notify you. You also know it is a bluff because it is the 27th of January. No way a court can see you this soon with covid, they must be flooded with work.

    Also, how could they pay to pass a debt that should not be there. I would go all the way to court depending on how personal this is to you and how much spare cash you have.

    If you care about justice and what is right, read terms of service and contact a lawyer. If you are in the wrong, just pay. But if you are right, I would not.

    I believe you clearly expressed so in your e-mail to them, although not in regulation with their ToS. But ask yourself: How much above are ToS than the law? Does it state in the law that a contract might be terminated otherwise? Why are they suing you in the Netherlands? Is there a legal basis to do so?

    Also check their ToS back then as they might have changed them!

    Thanked by 1rotkiv
  • FalzoFalzo Member
    edited January 2021

    @rotkiv just my opinion here:

    a.) that debt has not been sold but the collection agency acts on behalf of Leaseweb, just like a lawyer would do. therefore you of course can also pay to leaseweb directly and they cannot just put this into credit or whatever but have to (and probably will anyway) use it do settle the (direct) debt.

    b.) the collection fees and such are what the collection agency would get and even if you settled the main debt, those highly likely will remain open and create a debt on their own. leaseweb itself indeed will not care about that anymore then, but it will be up to that tkb incasso if they follow up on it seperately or not.

    c.) despite all arguments about service not being as expected and lack of communication I think the main issue here is, that the cancellation for that service wasn't send in properly in the first place.
    you already stated on your own, that you did not go through the options in the control panel and therefore most likely don't have any confirmation of that cancellation, which would support your dispute.
    your mail and statement about the invoice etc. probably is not clear enough about a specific contract to be cancelled as well... and as Leaseweb does not care about you using the service or not but only about the contract going on, of course they'll continue issuing invoices until it is properly cancelled.

    no offense meant and I really don't want to put the blame on you. for sure and especially with better comms from @LeaseWeb part, this could have been avoided or settled in a better way.

    I would recomment in such cases to clearly perform a dedicated cancellation of contract in a provable way, probably control panel (which you give a confirmation mail) plus a written letter. FAX or snail mail might be considered old and outdated, yet it will be really helpful later on, to prove lawfully you were done with them...

    as I understood you are a business yourself, so the laws more likely have much less mercy with you as what would apply to a consumer. maybe sometimes unfair, but that's how it is.

    if I were in your shoes I'd still send letters via postal office to both parties right now, declaring that you paid the invoice (along with a printout) and that you again cancel any open services that there could be. ask for a confirmation and a list, if there would be any.
    also spend the few bucks to send it as a traceable letter, so you have solid proof of sending it and when they received it.

    Thanked by 2NoComment Zerpy
  • @Hosterlabs said: I would go all the way to court depending on how personal this is to you and how much spare cash you have.

    Travelling overseas for small claims court and during covid?

    @Hosterlabs said: I believe you clearly expressed so in your e-mail to them

    The time for emailing was long over. Only registered mail now.

    @rotkiv Listen to falzo especially since you already "wasted" 600 euros. Send registered mail. I've lost count of how many times I've said it in this thread.

  • DPDP Administrator, The Domain Guy

    Just reply to LeaseWeb and say, after consulting the LowEndLawyers, $7 is the max you're willing to pay.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Don't forget to include a dick picure.

    Thanked by 1RIYAD
  • rotkivrotkiv Member
    edited January 2021

    @rotkiv Listen to falzo especially since you already "wasted" 600 euros. Send registered mail. I've lost count of how many times I've said it in this thread.

    Yeah. Falzos post was great.

    Although I think it might be a good idea to send a registered letter with text, my thought is that this will just be a lengthy process.

    I have taken into account what everyone has said and will reserve tomorrow to call around and try to get hold of someone with a higher position on leaseweb where we can come to an agreement.

  • stefemanstefeman Member
    edited January 2021

    If you answer the collection company with a (signed and scanned) reclamation paper saying that the invoice is baseless, they are (usually) forced to halt the collection process and take it back to the leasewebs for additional confirmations. If you ignore it, they will proceed with standard procedures. Even better if you can explain why its baseless.

    I know this cause the company I work for at my day job does the same thing. It employs another company called XXXXX for collections and we're literally hoping that people would ignore those letters so we can get default. As soon as the customer responds, XXXXX sends the claim back to us and asks for our confirmation and thats when it goes beyond the billing department to some supervisor which checks if its worth the trouble, and usually it gets dropped then if we are at fault or the collection would not be worth it.

    Reputable collection agencies do not want to touch troublesome and potentially wrongful collections cause if the client goes public, its super bad press for the collection agency and could result into some external investigation depending on the country and its public sector financial supervisor entities. Therefore in unclear situations, they usually check from the main company for more info if the client protests.

    Our company does only B2B trade, so this applies even to sales to another business.

    But this is just in Finland. I don't know how they act in NL or central europe.

    Thanked by 1rotkiv
  • rotkivrotkiv Member
    edited January 2021

    @stefeman said: If you answer the collection company with a reclamation letter saying that the invoice is baseless, they are (usually) forced to halt the collection process and take it back to the leasewebs for additional confirmations. If you ignore it, they will proceed with standard procedures.

    @stefeman said: But this is just in Finland. I don't know how they act in NL or central europe.

    Yeah. It's the same process in Sweden, so the dispute if often solved before the debt
    collector have to send a second letter.

    We have disputed the amount and asked them to send documentation / original invoices as to what the fees are, but they have not even been able to reply to this. Instead, they sent a more "threatening" letter via regular mail a month later.

    Now that we received the third letter via regular mail where they also wrote with a date when the case is sent to court, I felt that what the hell is this and what is LeaseWeb doing that hires such shady companies.

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @stefeman said:
    But this is just in Finland. I don't know how they act in NL or central europe.

    Perhaps you have heard about the most popular scammers in EU - "European business registry". They invite you to list your company in some registry like for free and in small small letters you can find written down 995EUR fee. They also use debt agencies to threaten companies which don't pay them. Some s**t pants and actually pay.. Superb business plan. And guess where are they from?

    https://docdro.id/01V1fcU

    Thanked by 1rustelekom
  • rotkivrotkiv Member
    edited January 2021

    @vero said:

    @stefeman said:
    But this is just in Finland. I don't know how they act in NL or central europe.

    Perhaps you have heard about the most popular scammers in EU - "European business registry". They invite you to list your company in some registry like for free and in small small letters you can find written down 995EUR fee. They also use debt agencies to threaten companies which don't pay them. Some s**t pants and actually pay.. Superb business plan. And guess where are they from?

    https://docdro.id/01V1fcU

    Amazing

    What a great business idea. Especially if people react like I did yesterday.

    The courts in the Netherlands must be fully booked until 2035

  • rotkivrotkiv Member
    edited January 2021

    LeaseWeb sure has some interesting Terms:

    "Leaseweb is entitled to require Customer to make free of charge payment by means of Direct Debit as standard default method of payment for any Order.

    Leaseweb will be entitled to charge an administrative Fee of fivehundred Euros(€500,00--)to Customer, if: (i) Customer has cancelled the Direct Debit authorization during the Sales Contract Term; or (ii) payment to Leaseweb has been reversed or denied."

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @rotkiv said:
    LeaseWeb sure has some interesting Terms:

    "Leaseweb will be entitled to charge an administrative Fee of fivehundred Euros(€500,00--)to Customer, if: (i) Customer has cancelled the Direct Debit authorization during the Sales Contract Term; or (ii) payment to Leaseweb has been reversed or denied."

    The most bizarre condition I've ever met.

    So close to "European business registry" terms (are they related/are they all related in NL?):

    I HEREBY ORDER A SUBSCRIPTION WITH THE SERVICE PROVIDER EU BUSINESS SERVICES LTD. “EU BUSINESS REGISTER”. I WILL HAVE AN INSERTION INTO ITS DATABASE FOR THREE YEARS. THE PRICE PER YEAR IS EURO 995. THE SUBSCRIPTION WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY EXTENDED EVERY YEAR FOR ANOTHER YEAR, UNLESS SPECIFIC WRITTEN NOTICE IS RECEIVED BY THE SERVICE PROVIDER OR THE SUBSCRIBER TWO MONTHS BEFORE THE EXPIRATION OF THE SUBSCRIPTION. YOUR DATA WILL BE RECORDED. THE PLACE OF JURISDICTION IN ANY DISPUTE ARISING IS THE SERVICE PROVIDER’S ADDRESS.

  • @vero said:

    I HEREBY ORDER A SUBSCRIPTION WITH THE SERVICE PROVIDER EU BUSINESS SERVICES LTD. “EU BUSINESS REGISTER”. I WILL HAVE AN INSERTION INTO ITS DATABASE FOR THREE YEARS. THE PRICE PER YEAR IS EURO 995. THE SUBSCRIPTION WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY EXTENDED EVERY YEAR FOR ANOTHER YEAR, UNLESS SPECIFIC WRITTEN NOTICE IS RECEIVED BY THE SERVICE PROVIDER OR THE SUBSCRIBER TWO MONTHS BEFORE THE EXPIRATION OF THE SUBSCRIPTION. YOUR DATA WILL BE RECORDED. THE PLACE OF JURISDICTION IN ANY DISPUTE ARISING IS THE SERVICE PROVIDER’S ADDRESS.

    What Leaseweb and "European business registry" have in common is quite clear that no one would have had any customers if people actually read through the terms. Which one unfortunately usually do only after you sit in the shit.

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @rotkiv said:
    Which one unfortunately usually do only after you sit in the shit.

    You are not. They just did pretty good job to make you feel like this. That's basically a fraud, which is unthinkable in developed countries.

  • PoiPoi Member

    I have a legal background in the Netherlands and I have to say that this topic was quite an interesting read !

    I'll shed some light on this. Let's start with the facts.
    OP was using services of LeaseWeb, but was no longer satisfied and decided to cancel the services. However, OP did not cancel it the proper way.
    The agreement OP signed when making use of their services is legally binding and OP did not end it the way both parties agreed on.
    Furthermore, from your email, it is not clear that you want to end the contract. "We will not pay any of the invoices" , "You are free to cancel/disconnect". From a legal perspective, you do not mention any request for cancellation and there are no specific services mentioned. You only state that you are refusing to pay.
    This led to Leaseweb sending a collection agency on their behalf. The debt has not been sold.

    Currently the agency is informing you about the case and expecting an answer, like a lawful dispute, payment or any kind of response. The case is not brought up to court yet, however it would be in your best interest to communicate with the collection agency. You can still solve the problem without going to court.

    I don't know where OP is from, but as long as you are an EU citizen they have various ways to collect the debt from you, like the European Order for Payment Procedure or bringing it to court in your own country.

    To the people who saying the small amount and court costs are not worth it; the interest rate will increase over time and the costs for court are paid by the losing party. The longer you wait, the higher the costs.

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @Poi said:
    To the people who saying the small amount and court costs are not worth it; the interest rate will increase over time and the costs for court are paid by the losing party. The longer you wait, the higher the costs.

    Costs of court remain the same over time. Annual interest rate considered in legal processes is 8% max (if OP would lose unconditionally). There is nothing terrifying about these expenses.

  • rotkivrotkiv Member
    edited January 2021

    @Poi said:
    I have a legal background in the Netherlands and I have to say that this topic was quite an interesting read !

    Thank you for your informative post.

    I fully agree with you that that email mid-2019 does not meet the formal requirements for terminating the DE server. However, I had been in contact with leaseweb every day for over two weeks, both via hour-long phone calls and emails to get the problems resolved, and that email was the last I sent, and then our correspondence ended when I did not receive a reply.

    So for me in the middle of 2019, it was more like "going into a company that we work with and showing how disappointed we are and that we give up continued cooperation. We are so tired of all the problems you can end our services now. Do what you want with the prepaid amounts. I do not have any more energy to care."

    Here, of course, our contact person could have answered that if we want to cancel the server, we must go into the control panel and do so. He was well aware that we left them as a customer.

    The fee that Leaseweb now demands via court threats is a prepayment for another 12 months for a new period of mid-2020 to mid-2021.

    All other fees has been settled.

    That they can not agree to cancel this invoice is completely unreasonable to me when they know all our problems we had that we left them as a customer in mid-2019.

    But I can see that my explanation does not hold up in court.

    I was extremely upset by the knowledge that I needed to spend the next 2 weeks of my summer vacation migrating all the servers we had with leaseweb to another provider, so I did not act professionally in the end towards Leaseweb. I just wanted them out of my life as soon as possible and never look back.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll
    edited January 2021

    Consider your contract a marriage.

    You do not end your marriage simply because you are not happy with your woman. Both need to agree to terminate.

    You did not cancel your contract. You simply walked away, saying "Not happy, Cya".

    No, it won't hold up in a court.

    Thanked by 2rotkiv Tony40
  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @rotkiv said:
    But I can see that my explanation does not hold up in court.

    That's the conclusion you've made after reading some forum posts and never been to court yourself.. Sad. I see no reason to continue persuading you to hold the line. I have never lost in court yet, though I have made peace agreements few times - that's really good option if sides are not complete dicks. I find some missing pieces of information in other member posts, but that's their experience, their perspective also it can't be that only one person can be completely right. I just know how to do it myself and I know that it works. So, good luck and good night.

    Thanked by 1rotkiv
  • stefemanstefeman Member
    edited January 2021

    @deank said:
    Consider your contract a marriage.

    You do not end your marriage simply because you are not happy with your woman. Both need to agree to terminate.

    You did not cancel your contract. You simply walked away, saying "Not happy, Cya".

    No, it won't hold up in a court.

    Fuck the USA marriage law.. In EU you can just take an one sided divorce and argue later in court whats your part and whats her part. You don't need her consent and she doesen't need your consent to end the marriage.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Well, one can end one's marriage by force even in the country I live.

    But it is far less messier to end it mutually.

  • @deank said:
    Consider your contract a marriage.

    You do not end your marriage simply because you are not happy with your woman. Both need to agree to terminate.

    You did not cancel your contract. You simply walked away, saying "Not happy, Cya".

    No, it won't hold up in a court.

    No, Jesus Christ, stop trolling this poor guy. You're fucking useless. How about you go consult a fucking lawyer yourself and STFU.

    Read some fucking contracts, especially the "Termination" section that lays out how and when contracts can be terminated.

    Both don't need to agree to terminate contracts unless you specifically agreed to those terms. People are not signing contracts that can never be ended unless the other party agrees, that's fucking stupid.

    Thanked by 1serv_ee
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