Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Advertise on LowEndTalk.com
What's holding back the prophesied low-end price hike due to IPv4 exhaustion?
New on LowEndTalk? Please read our 'Community Rules' by clicking on it in the right menu!

What's holding back the prophesied low-end price hike due to IPv4 exhaustion?

sundaymousesundaymouse Member
edited September 24 in Providers

I remember a few years ago when the last ARIN and RIPE blocks were assigned, there were wide speculation here and elsewhere that the lowest of the low-end prices may become untenable within years. To date that doesn't seem to have happened, with $15-20 a year VPS with dedicated IPv4 on sale everywhere, and only a handful of providers are offering NAT servers as a mainstream product.

What's holding the inevitable back? Were the IP hoarder hosting companies really really good at collecting the last stash? Is the rising price of IP leases subsidising the cheap customers keeping the stock IPs in good, justifiable use?

Thanked by 1raindog308
«1

Comments

  • jarjar Provider
    edited September 24

    The last blocks being assigned was often exaggerated from reality. It was commonly referenced to stir a sense of panic to make you think "this is the end, there's no more, it's done." Yet, look at the ARIN waiting list:

    https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/ipv4/waiting_list/

    You'll notice that a /24 gets fulfilled pretty quickly. I'm on the list for a /22 right now so that'll take longer, but a /24 is like ~2 months.

    People are still getting IPv4, and the "black market" for IPv4 isn't doing poorly either.

    Thanked by 3PandaRain kkrajk rtsh

    MagicSpam blackmails providers into buying their software, and ServerHub is a professional spam organization.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Seeing how active and large "IP rental" market is, IPv4 is unlike to go away in our lifetime.

    There are two things that make Earth spin: Money and PMS.

  • oplinkoplink Member, Provider

    The problem with ipv4 for a long time was wasted IPs.

    I mean have you ever hear the phrase "IPV6 is awesome".

    Thanked by 2PHDan coreflux
  • UnbelievableUnbelievable Member
    edited September 24

    More industry consolidation. More client consolidation per machine. Equals more IPs available. I'm sure some of the feable attempts at cracking down on spammers also increases market liquidity for IPs.

    Nothing profound to say, so I'm on LET.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Moderator

    Because I was right when I said years ago that ipv4 exhaustion was overhyped.

    There's still tons of privately-owned blocks that can be internally renumbered and sold. As prices rise, it becomes attractive to those orgs and companies to do the work to renumber and sell, and then supply increases, so prices fall. Then when demand increases over supply, the cycle repeats.

    This process can't go on forever but I think we're still a long ways away from "exhaustion".

    Also, ipv6 is in wider use now, which drives down ipv4 demand.

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • I'm developing the new internet that does not use addresses. The network can send packets using their names. It can support infinite number of devices just like you can have infinite number of domain names.

  • Wait...I thought we are getting ipv4+?

    I swear to drunk Im not god

  • HosterlabsHosterlabs Member, Provider

    FYI congress in the us was supposed to force the DOD to sell 210 million IPv4 if I am not wrong.

    We are far form out of IPv4's. MIT Just sold a big chunk of their /8. The pricing of IPv4 going up is only encouraging companies to use it properly. I'd give it 10+ years of life.

    (ads)
    we even talk about it here: https://hosterlabs.net/ip-exhaustion-the-end-of-the-world/

    [Signature violates rules]

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    The only way for IP v4 to die is when the space age comes.

    That will be the point where IP v4 isn't just enough. Doubt IP v6 will replace it though. Something more fancy will come.

    There are two things that make Earth spin: Money and PMS.

  • HosterlabsHosterlabs Member, Provider

    And NAT's in Nat's are becoming more and more popular. My ISP gives me an IP with a NAT, which is then on a nat on my router level that delivers an ip to each machine I have. So if I had 30 devices, because IoT, and there were let's say 255 households connected to one IP, you are connecting 250*30 devices with a single IP. That is crazy efficient.

    Same goes for mobile networks, a cell tower might have only one IP but serves thousands of people.

    Thanked by 1saf31

    [Signature violates rules]

  • @Hosterlabs said:
    And NAT's in Nat's are becoming more and more popular. My ISP gives me an IP with a NAT, which is then on a nat on my router level that delivers an ip to each machine I have. So if I had 30 devices, because IoT, and there were let's say 255 households connected to one IP, you are connecting 250*30 devices with a single IP. That is crazy efficient.

    Same goes for mobile networks, a cell tower might have only one IP but serves thousands of people.

    My GF have public IPv4 in her phone. I know not too many people have on their phone but exists.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Yeah, not many have real world GF nowadays. It's gone all virtual.

    There are two things that make Earth spin: Money and PMS.

  • Can we just slap a few extra zeros and call it a day?

    Like,
    192.168.60.13.37.1

    Marginally better than v6 I guess.

    I repeat, RAID is not backup | Looking for a developer for your next project? - Hire me

  • DataIdeas-JoshDataIdeas-Josh Member, Provider

    @sdglhm said:
    Can we just slap a few extra zeros and call it a day?

    Like,
    192.168.60.13.37.1

    Marginally better than v6 I guess.

    I agree

    Alien Data: VPS and Colo Based In Texas, Unmetered Bandwidth.
    RPIServers: Dedicated Micro Servers. Unmeterd Bandwidth

  • xmsxms Member

    @sdglhm said:
    Can we just slap a few extra zeros and call it a day?

    Like,
    192.168.60.13.37.1

    Marginally better than v6 I guess.

    lol. Isn't IPv6 doing basically that, adding more bits(zeros). under the hood its just binary.

    If you really(really) want you can use decimal notation for v6 as well. >:)

  • @xms said:

    @sdglhm said:
    Can we just slap a few extra zeros and call it a day?

    Like,
    192.168.60.13.37.1

    Marginally better than v6 I guess.

    lol. Isn't IPv6 doing basically that, adding more bits(zeros). under the hood its just binary.

    If you really(really) want you can use decimal notation for v6 as well. >:)

    Care to demonstrate? Because so far v6 looks like a MAC address and is certainly not appealing to me one bit. I’d rather stick with NAT IPv4 than try to work with IPv6

  • HosterlabsHosterlabs Member, Provider
    edited September 25

    Well it is easy, ipv4 has 32 bits and ipv6 has 128 bits. The main difference I guess is that ipv6 is hexadecimal, so it translates binary to hexadecimal, where ipv4 translates binary to the decimal system ish.

    Check it here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6_address#/media/File:Ipv6_address_leading_zeros.svg

    You see ipv6 as strange and difficult because we are not used to handling an hexadecimal system. Where have yo seen that ever?

    At the end of the day it is 96 zeros and ones extra. I guess the main difference is how this zeros are translated.

    If you wanted to extend IPv6 with numbers instead of hexadecimals, the highest number would be 2^16 in the each section. So in decimal it would look like this:

    65536.65536.65536.65536.65536.65536.65536.65536

    But I guess the creators of IPv6 chose the hexadecimal instead of decimal for convenience. As you can shorten IPv6's easily, they are more "user friendly" and faster to compute.

    Maybe I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

    Thanked by 1maverickp

    [Signature violates rules]

  • Well, ipv6 looks ugly, its ugly to use etc.

    Hell, I can ssh into my servers without even opening some file to remember the IP's. Try doing that with v6.

    I swear to drunk Im not god

  • xmsxms Member

    @Pwner said:

    @xms said:

    @sdglhm said:
    Can we just slap a few extra zeros and call it a day?

    Like,
    192.168.60.13.37.1

    Marginally better than v6 I guess.

    lol. Isn't IPv6 doing basically that, adding more bits(zeros). under the hood its just binary.

    If you really(really) want you can use decimal notation for v6 as well. >:)

    Care to demonstrate?

    ::ffff:192.0.8.1

    Because so far v6 looks like a MAC address and is certainly not appealing to me one bit.

    It can look like a mac address sometimes because it uses it. (EUI-64)

    Even though v6 has 128 bits, it reality good ISPs provide the first 64bits, which the other half you can configure your self.

    So it can have address like below.

    2001:db8:203:188d::
    2001:db8:480:1aa1::1
    2001:db8:480:1aa1::b
    2001:db8:480:1aa1::1000

    I’d rather stick with NAT IPv4 than try to work with IPv6

    when trying v6, do not compare it with v4 at all. Think of your addressing scheme in a new way and you like it a whole lot better.

    Thanked by 1maverickp
  • hzrhzr Member, Moderator

    @serv_ee said: Hell, I can ssh into my servers without even opening some file to remember the IP's. Try doing that with v6.

    I already do that with v6

  • @hzr said:

    @serv_ee said: Hell, I can ssh into my servers without even opening some file to remember the IP's. Try doing that with v6.

    I already do that with v6

    Like saved putty sessions or similar or actually just typing in v6 addresses from your memory?

    I swear to drunk Im not god

  • who remembers IPs?

    ^-^!

  • hzrhzr Member, Moderator
    edited September 25

    @serv_ee said: Like saved putty sessions or similar or actually just typing in v6 addresses from your memory?

    typing v6 addresses from memory. i remember them just like v4; it's really only 7-8 characters to remember, shorter than a full v4 addr. but i don't randomly generate full xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:..etc.

    if i am doing anything like that (full automation), it will be doing dns resolution automatically, like in kubernetes, so i can just access a service like "webapp.namespace.svc.local" from anything else in the cluster.

  • @hzr Gotta say thats impressive. I cant seem to remember v6-s at all even tho v4-s are no issue to remember.

    I swear to drunk Im not god

  • hzrhzr Member, Moderator
    edited September 25

    @serv_ee said: @hzr Gotta say thats impressive. I cant seem to remember v6-s at all even tho v4-s are no issue to remember.

    Yeah, but that being said - I think you would have a easier time with something like 2001:db8::8:e or similar rather than 2001:0db8:18d7:poop:69:420:1:yes or 249.120.4.188 (or maybe it's easier for you because you are possibly used to numeric phone number memorisation? my generation did not grow up needing to know or remember phone numbers -- I'm actually curious if this might partially explain why because it feels a lot easier to remember, say, battlenetusername#2001 rather than a set of 7-14 numbers.)

    I have very few v4 that I've remembered, since working in Enterprise Cloud means all I see is RFC1918 space and load balancers everywhere

  • alwyzonalwyzon Member, Provider

    @serv_ee said:
    Well, ipv6 looks ugly, its ugly to use etc.

    Hell, I can ssh into my servers without even opening some file to remember the IP's. Try doing that with v6.

    That‘s what DNS is designed for anyways. Also, IPv6 can be short too, as you can skip 0s. For example, that‘s the IPv6 of our Looking Glass: 2a0d:f300::4

    If your provider assigns you a /64 you can always skip half of the address and just go with ::1 as suffix.

    alwyzon - KVM Virtual Servers in NL starting at 1,80 €/month (excl. VAT)

  • serv_eeserv_ee Member
    edited September 25

    @hzr said:

    @serv_ee said: @hzr Gotta say thats impressive. I cant seem to remember v6-s at all even tho v4-s are no issue to remember.

    Yeah, but that being said - I think you would have a easier time with something like 2001:db8::8:e or similar rather than 2001:0db8:18d7:poop:69:420:1:yes or 249.120.4.188 (or maybe it's easier for you because you are possibly used to numeric phone number memorisation? my generation did not grow up needing to know or remember phone numbers -- I'm actually curious if this might partially explain why because it feels a lot easier to remember, say, battlenetusername#2001 rather than a set of 7-14 numbers.)

    I have very few v4 that I've remembered, since working in Enterprise Cloud means all I see is RFC1918 space and load balancers everywhere

    You actually might be on to something here about the phone numbers etc.

    I've always had to remember phone nr-s in 6-7 digit and my actual social security code which is 11 digits. (I even know my wifes and mothers if that makes any sense lol)

    Or just the fact that I already hated it enough when they mixed letters into numbers in math at school lol

    Long story short for some unknown reason v6 just doesnt make any sense to me compared to v4

    @alwyzon

    "For example, that‘s the IPv6 of our Looking Glass: 2a0d:f300::4"

    I mean..if youd have to actually tell someone that (not write) which would make more sense? That thing or just saying "uh yeah its 144.76.xx.x"

    Maybe im just overthinking this.

    I swear to drunk Im not god

  • @xms said: lol. Isn't IPv6 doing basically that, adding more bits(zeros). under the hood its just binary.

    Yes. But they forgot to stop adding Zeroes and went like crazy. Let's dial it down a notch and keep it simple for a while.

    I repeat, RAID is not backup | Looking for a developer for your next project? - Hire me

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited September 25

    @sdglhm said:
    Can we just slap a few extra zeros and call it a day?

    Like,
    192.168.60.13.37.1

    Marginally better than v6 I guess.

    Something like what I call IPv5. 64 bits so about 4 billion times todays IPv4 address space plus much less demanding on routers, switches, etc. than IPv6.

    @all

    No surprise that there still is plenty IP4. After all this is a deal driven world and when something gets scarce its price rises which again make some players sell. Plus IMO IPv6 helps a lot because those who take that train free up valuable IP4s.

    Plus there still are some untapped and very rich reserves. To name one example: to introduce a new 'A+' DNS record which would be a normal A record plus a port number attached to finally allow us to stop the wasteful idiocy of fixed ports (e.g. http = 80).

    My guess is that IPv6 will continue to crouch and to not get much love and that some day the internet org morons see the light and introduce something like IPv5 that is, an extended version of IP4 that also largely looks and feels like IP4 and hence finds rapid uptake.

    Side note: there should be a world wide rule that nobody except providers gets more than IP4 /24. If whole countries can live with NAT then so can american colleges or german corporations.

    Thanks no.

  • @sdglhm said:
    Can we just slap a few extra zeros and call it a day?

    Like,
    192.168.60.13.37.1

    Marginally better than v6 I guess.

    VirMach will prefer to do this instead of IPv6.

  • @serv_ee said:

    @hzr said:

    "For example, that‘s the IPv6 of our Looking Glass: 2a0d:f300::4"

    I mean..if youd have to actually tell someone that (not write) which would make more sense? That thing or just saying "uh yeah its 144.76.xx.x"

    Maybe im just overthinking this.

    Is it really that much harder to say
    "two, a, oh, d, f, threehundred, four"
    then to say something like
    "one hundred forty four, seventysix, twentytwo, one hundred seven"?

  • @rcy026 said:

    @serv_ee said:

    @hzr said:

    "For example, that‘s the IPv6 of our Looking Glass: 2a0d:f300::4"

    I mean..if youd have to actually tell someone that (not write) which would make more sense? That thing or just saying "uh yeah its 144.76.xx.x"

    Maybe im just overthinking this.

    Is it really that much harder to say
    "two, a, oh, d, f, threehundred, four"
    then to say something like
    "one hundred forty four, seventysix, twentytwo, one hundred seven"?

    Not harder at all but just more complicated compared to v4. Just my personal opinion.

    I swear to drunk Im not god

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited September 25

    @rcy026 said:
    Is it really that much harder to say
    "two, a, oh, d, f, threehundred, four"
    then to say something like
    "one hundred forty four, seventysix, twentytwo, one hundred seven"?

    It makes no sense to focus just one issue.

    IPv6 has a new notation -and- way too many addresses -and- at an unreasonably high cost -and- has tried to change significant parts of how things works (e.g. DHCP).

    Had IPv6 only extended the address space it would highly likely enjoy by far more acceptance. Had it also done that sensibly that is to "only" 64 bits and keeping the notation, we'd all use it by now IMO.
    But that's not what happened. What happened is that some morons changed way too much on too many levels in order to achieve wet dream goals that virtually nobody shared. TL;DR: very bad deal in a very unattractive package plus very significantly increased cost.

    The result: very low and very slow uptake even though they used dirty tricks like fear mongering.

    Thanks no.

  • oplinkoplink Member, Provider

    Curious.. Do you guys feel IPV6 is a must have when buying/selling VPS/ded in 2020?

    To this day I still dont think its being used as much as the HYPE about IPV4's death.

    It seems like the standard is to hand off a /64. Is there a really a need for that many IPs to a vps?

  • AC_FanAC_Fan Member
    edited September 25

    @oplink said:
    Curious.. Do you guys feel IPV6 is a must have when buying/selling VPS/ded in 2020?

    To this day I still dont think its being used as much as the HYPE about IPV4's death.

    It seems like the standard is to hand off a /64. Is there a really a need for that many IPs to a vps?

    Not a must have, but it's a nice item to check off.

    Not a need per se, but I believe the specifications dictate that a minimum of /64 should be provided per unique device, which is why most providers stick to that.

  • jsgjsg Member

    @oplink said:
    Curious.. Do you guys feel IPV6 is a must have when buying/selling VPS/ded in 2020?

    To this day I still dont think its being used as much as the HYPE about IPV4's death.

    It seems like the standard is to hand off a /64. Is there a really a need for that many IPs to a vps?

    No, of course not. But what do you do when you have but one item that might be potentially attractive (and also addresses the "more is better" attitude of many)?

    Well, you offer that one item and put it to the shop window front.

    Thanks no.

  • HosterlabsHosterlabs Member, Provider

    @jsg said:
    No, of course not. But what do you do when you have but one item that might be potentially attractive (and also addresses the "more is better" attitude of many)?

    Well, you offer that one item and put it to the shop window front.

    But I think we might be going to the same place as with IPv4, wasting IP's. I think the attractiveness of that is the shortness of the IP. For a 64 bit block, you would only need to remember half of the address. So it is a lot lot shorter.

    But it Is just plain waste like they did when IPv4 started. When it started no one thought it could be use fully, we believe the same of IPv6 and we are waisting thousands of blocks. Maybe history will repeat itself?

    [Signature violates rules]

  • @Hosterlabs said:

    @jsg said:
    No, of course not. But what do you do when you have but one item that might be potentially attractive (and also addresses the "more is better" attitude of many)?

    Well, you offer that one item and put it to the shop window front.

    But I think we might be going to the same place as with IPv4, wasting IP's. I think the attractiveness of that is the shortness of the IP. For a 64 bit block, you would only need to remember half of the address. So it is a lot lot shorter.

    But it Is just plain waste like they did when IPv4 started. When it started no one thought it could be use fully, we believe the same of IPv6 and we are waisting thousands of blocks. Maybe history will repeat itself?

    See the size of the IPv6 range. Even with a /64 per person, we won't exhaust a significant portion of it.

    Thanked by 1raindog308
  • jsgjsg Member

    @AC_Fan said:
    See the size of the IPv6 range. Even with a /64 per person, we won't exhaust a significant portion of it.

    And with something like IP4 but extended to 64 bit addresses each and every person on this planet could have far more than their own /16 which should be more than plenty sufficient.

    Thanked by 1raindog308

    Thanks no.

  • @jsg said:

    @AC_Fan said:
    See the size of the IPv6 range. Even with a /64 per person, we won't exhaust a significant portion of it.

    And with something like IP4 but extended to 64 bit addresses each and every person on this planet could have far more than their own /16 which should be more than plenty sufficient.

    I was just answering his doubt, I can assure you that I have no special place in my heart for IPv6 (mostly because it's numbers and letters combined; school made me hate that).

    Thanked by 1jsg
  • We'll run out of petrol before IPv4.

    :D Cyclothymic :disappointed:

  • @hzr said:

    @serv_ee said: Like saved putty sessions or similar or actually just typing in v6 addresses from your memory?

    typing v6 addresses from memory. i remember them just like v4; it's really only 7-8 characters to remember, shorter than a full v4 addr. but i don't randomly generate full xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:..etc.

    if i am doing anything like that (full automation), it will be doing dns resolution automatically, like in kubernetes, so i can just access a service like "webapp.namespace.svc.local" from anything else in the cluster.

    The double colons are an endless source of typos.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Provider

    @sundaymouse said: To date that doesn't seem to have happened, with $15-20 a year VPS with dedicated IPv4 on sale everywhere,

    If it wasn't for Micfo going under the waiting list would be +400 more entries deep.

    You don't see a lot of those deals outside of places that had large stashes of IP's though. Colocrossing hosts, someone that got some holdings before hand, maybe some companies that are sitting on a bunch.

    There was plenty of hosts that got blocks that everyone knows they couldn't justify. One provider got a 15 one month, and then a /14 a month later. A couple months after that they leased the whole damn /14 to GVH for spammer hosting. I mean, colocrossing got a /14 at the end and that thing hit Spamhaus wicked fast. It sat on there for a year.

    There's still very large buys/transfers going. Since things have run out Amazon has bought an entire /8+ with all the other cloud providers buying as much as they can. Microsoft has bought tons, OVH gets fairly large blocks.

    Cogent is now charging $0.50/IP month+ for all of their IP's and providers like Zayo and Cox are $2 - $3/month per IP.

    Lets not forget the handful of providers abusing AFRINIC for ranges too.

    Francisco

    BuyVM - Free DirectAdmin, Softaculous, & Blesta! / Anycast Support! / Windows 2008, 2012, & 2016! / Unmetered Bandwidth!
    BuyShared - Shared & Reseller Hosting / cPanel + Softaculous + CloudLinux / Pure SSD! / Free Dedicated IP Address
  • @jsg said:

    @rcy026 said:
    Is it really that much harder to say
    "two, a, oh, d, f, threehundred, four"
    then to say something like
    "one hundred forty four, seventysix, twentytwo, one hundred seven"?

    It makes no sense to focus just one issue.

    IPv6 has a new notation -and- way too many addresses -and- at an unreasonably high cost -and- has tried to change significant parts of how things works (e.g. DHCP).

    Had IPv6 only extended the address space it would highly likely enjoy by far more acceptance. Had it also done that sensibly that is to "only" 64 bits and keeping the notation, we'd all use it by now IMO.
    But that's not what happened. What happened is that some morons changed way too much on too many levels in order to achieve wet dream goals that virtually nobody shared. TL;DR: very bad deal in a very unattractive package plus very significantly increased cost.

    The result: very low and very slow uptake even though they used dirty tricks like fear mongering.

    Yet, you are only focusing on one issue. :smile:

    Address space is not the only issue with IPv4. Humongous routing tables, subnet sizes, addressing, configuration, encryption...the list goes on and on. And IPv6 solves all of them. The fact that you mention DHCP just shows that you do not fully understand IPv6, since there is no need for DHCP in IPv6.

    IPv6 is not a "IPv4 but with more addresses". It's a completely new way of addressing devices, designed for the networks of today and tomorrow. IPv4 was obsolete basically the day the internet was invented, we have simply adapted everything we do around the shortcomings of IPv4 since we have had no other alternatives. To simply extend IPv4 to 64 bits would only temporarily solve one of the issues. That would just be a whole lot of work for very little gain.

    The only increased cost of IPv6 is that you have to replace the "old school" people that cant or wont keep up with progress. Once you understand IPv6 and implement it correctly, everything is easier, and hence cheaper.
    The very slow uptake of IPv6 is simply because of these "old school" people that are unwilling (or unable) to learn something new.

    Thanked by 1TimboJones
  • jsgjsg Member

    @rcy026 said:
    [TL;DR Old school people are stupid and the culprits]

    Sorry, but pointing at some allegedly guilty party and blaming them is not gonna cut it nor is it a level I accept as basis of a discussion.

    You see, it's them "old school stupid" people who created the internet in the first place and the "obsolete from the beginning" IP4 is what kept the internet running for decades and still keeps it running.

    And YES, the problem (TM) is that we are going to need more addresses, albeit way less urgently than many seem to think.

    Have a nice day

    Thanks no.

  • @jsg said:
    Sorry, but pointing at some allegedly guilty party and blaming them is not gonna cut it nor is it a level I accept as basis of a discussion.

    You see, it's them "old school stupid" people who created the internet in the first place and the "obsolete from the beginning" IP4 is what kept the internet running for decades and still keeps it running.

    And YES, the problem (TM) is that we are going to need more addresses, albeit way less urgently than many seem to think.

    So you are free to claim slow adaption and slow uptake as major problems, but I am not allowed to point out the reason for that? That's a strange definition of the word "discussion". ;)

    I never said stupid. I said old school. I am one of them, calling myself stupid would be...well, stupid.
    And yes, we created the internet (I was about 10 years late so I take no credit for the creation, I just claim to be part of the "old school"). And yes, IPv4 is what the internet has been running since then. Like I said, there have been no alternatives. But trust me, if the creators of IPv4 could even have imagined the kind of networks we are looking at today, IPv4 would have looked a whole lot different.

    I understand where you are coming from. I hate IPv6 too. I have 30 years of experience in networking that is now basically obsolete and worth nothing. It sucks, but that's the way it is. But even if I hate IPv6, I fully understand and accept that it's coming. Roll with it or get left behind, simple as that. And even if I hate it, I cant just ignore that it is a far superior protocol, in every way. Trying to claim otherwise is just plain wrong.

    Yes, IPv4 was awesome. It has scaled to millions of times the size it was designed for. But that doesn't mean we should just keep using it forever. With that kind of mindset we would all still be running 386sx with 512KB of RAM, since that's what Windows started on. But software evolved, and so did hardware. It's time for networking to keep up.
    It's called progress, and it's inevitable.

    Thanked by 1TimboJones
  • stefemanstefeman Member
    edited September 28

    Just wait when Ford and other auto industry companies sell / are forced to sell their /8 blocks, and then we have ipv4 for years again.

    Thanked by 1jsg
  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Moderator

    @sdglhm said: Can we just slap a few extra zeros and call it a day?

    Computers do not think in decimal. If you stop looking at IP addresses as xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx and start looking at them as 32-bit binary numbers, things make more sense.

    @yoursunny said: I'm developing the new internet that does not use addresses. The network can send packets using their names. It can support infinite number of devices just like you can have infinite number of domain names.

    Great. Now just make it work as fast as IP-based systems and you're done. I loved this part of that web site:

    "Yet another dimension of scaling challenge is packet forwarding speed. Decades of research have proven it possible to engineer ASICs to forward IP packets at wire rate, even for the fastest wires. We think that much of that research plus some new techniques can be used to achieve wire rate forwarding of NDN’s longer and variable length data names."

    1. Invent new protocols

    2. Magic to solve the engineering issues

    3. Profit!

    Thanked by 2jsg yoursunny

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited September 28

    @rcy026 said:
    So you are free to claim slow adaption and slow uptake as major problems, but I am not allowed to point out the reason for that? That's a strange definition of the word "discussion". ;)

    No, you are of course free to point out the reason, but that's not what you did. What you did was to tell your hypothesis and in a way that seemed to make IPv6 opponents look like stupidity was their problem.

    I never said stupid. I said old school. I am one of them, calling myself stupid would be...well, stupid.

    ... you do not fully understand IPv6 ...
    ... "old school" people that cant or wont keep up with progress ...
    ... "old school" people that are unwilling (or unable) to learn something new ...

    I'll be fair and assume that it was not your intention to call us stupid but you should be fair enough to see that one could easily read it like that.

    But trust me, if the creators of IPv4 could even have imagined the kind of networks we are looking at today, IPv4 would have looked a whole lot different.

    Well, they seem to have imagined a need for an IP address space for (back then) almost the whole earth's population.

    I understand where you are coming from. I hate IPv6 too. I have 30 years of experience in networking that is now basically obsolete and worth nothing. It sucks, but that's the way it is. But even if I hate IPv6,

    For me that isn't even an important point because it largely boils down to using another data type. But then, my point isn't about me and my situation.

    I fully understand and accept that it's coming.

    That seems debatable. I've heard that it's coming and rolling over IP4 since more than a decade ...

    I cant just ignore that it is a far superior protocol, in every way. Trying to claim otherwise is just plain wrong.

    I'll politely refrain from commenting on that other than stating that many disagree.

    Yes, IPv4 was awesome. It has scaled to millions of times the size it was designed for. But that doesn't mean we should just keep using it forever. With that kind of mindset we would all still be running 386sx with 512KB of RAM, since that's what Windows started on. But software evolved, and so did hardware. It's time for networking to keep up.
    It's called progress, and it's inevitable.

    Pardon me but, NO, that's not progress. If it really were then the newer Windows (or linux) running newer applications on newer (and doubtlessly much faster) processors wouldn't feel roughly the same speed as back then.

    Fact is that we do have a working internet even with enough addresses and good enough to run pretty much everything on it, from government over companies to private households.

    Let me point you at 2 just real problems and culprits for increasing address scarcity: (a) extensive ignorant address waste due to relatively few entities (e.g. colleges, corporations) holding more IP4 addresses than whole (poorer) countries, and (b) a DNS system where A records only hold an address but no port (or the lack of an 'A+' record) which leads to massive IP4 waste for http servers (which are among the most heavily used programs).

    If those 2 issues, both of which could be solved without turning the internet upside down, are solved we'll be good for another 20 or 30 years, which should be enough time to push the IPv6 morons aside and to let some proper engineers design IP4+ (or as I call it IP5) which definitely is 64 bit based. Simple reason: that's the largest word size of common processors for a long time.

    Thanks no.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider
    edited September 28

    @raindog308 said:

    @yoursunny said: I'm developing the new internet that does not use addresses. The network can send packets using their names. It can support infinite number of devices just like you can have infinite number of domain names.

    Great. Now just make it work as fast as IP-based systems and you're done. I loved this part of that web site:

    "Yet another dimension of scaling challenge is packet forwarding speed. Decades of research have proven it possible to engineer ASICs to forward IP packets at wire rate, even for the fastest wires. We think that much of that research plus some new techniques can be used to achieve wire rate forwarding of NDN’s longer and variable length data names."

    .

    1. Invent new protocols

    2. Magic to solve the engineering issues

    3. Profit!

    :smile:

    Clouvider Limited - Leading Hosting & Connectivity Partner || Dedicated Server Sale from £39/m - Our Latest LET Offer

    Cloud Web Hosting | SSD & SAS HA OnApp VPS | US, UK, NL & DE Dedicated Servers | Network Services | Colocation | Managed Services

Sign In or Register to comment.