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An effortless way to monetize your spare GPU(s) - Up to $310 monthly - FluidStack
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An effortless way to monetize your spare GPU(s) - Up to $310 monthly - FluidStack

lentrolentro Member, Provider
edited July 25 in General

Hello my fellow LETians!

I just joined the FluidStack team after being one of their providers for eight months. Thought I might give a shameless promo for you all to become FluidStack providers too.

What is FluidStack?

  • We are like an Airbnb but for GPU servers. You host your machine(s), we rent them, and our customers use them for machine learning, CAD rendering, etc.
  • We are backed by some original investors of SpaceX, Revolut, and Transferwise

Our virtual desktop platform is growing fast, and we need more providers!


How it works:

  1. Fill out a quick application form here to become a supplier
  2. Once approved, follow 5 minute setup instructions to give us access to your fully dedicated machine
  3. Sit back and relax. We rent the machine, and you get guaranteed monthly payouts even if it’s not always used!

Payouts

Payouts made at start of each month via PayPal. We solely pay for the GPU; we do not compensate for CPU/RAM/bandwidth. If I included rates for all supported GPUs, it would go on forever, so I'm just including two examples. Payout rates for your GPU can be seen after approved.

Current Per-GPU payout:
NIVIDA Tesla V100: $310/month
NVIDIA GeForce 2080 Ti: $90/month


Frequently Asked Questions

System Requirements?

  • Fully dedicated machine with 8+ GB of RAM, 200 GB of disk space, 5+ Mbps guaranteed bandwidth
  • NVIDIA GPU including: a100, v100, 2080ti, 2080 Super, 2080, 2070 Super, 2070, 2060 Super, 2060, 1080 Ti, 1080, 1070, 1070 Ti, 1060 6GB, 1060 3GB, 1050 Ti, or 1050
  • Windows or Linux
  • Virtualization and IOMMU support
  • SSH access

Security?

  • We do our best to keep providers secure: happy providers = more GPUs = larger business. If you are hosting a machine from your home, understand that someone else will have access. Personally, I would suggest firewalling LAN addresses and patching CPU vulnerabilities just in case.

Notes?

  • V100 and 2080/Ti/Supers have the fastest waiting lists (few days) - others might take a bit longer
  • Tampering or excessive downtime will result in no payouts

Need Affordable GPU Servers?

Rent machines with GPUs from virtually anywhere in the world here


Closing Notes

Whether you want to become a provider or a customer, there has never been a better time to join!

Post questions that benefit everyone down below, and contact us at [email protected] for individual/private inquiries.

Thanked by 1seriesn

FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

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Comments

  • ViridWebViridWeb Member, Provider

    $90 for the 2080 Ti GPU only or for the whole server?

    So according to your website,
    You are charging $193.44 to your clients for the same server with 2080 ti and you will give us $90 monthly. :lol:

    https://intercom.help/fluidstack/en/articles/3839143-fluidstack-pricing

    Nah.. not interested. It'll take years to recover only our investment on server hardwares.

    ViridWeb.com - cPanel Web Hosting | Litespeed + SSH Access + Free Backups + Free Transfers.
    CIN: U72900WB2018OPC226882 | GST: 19AAGCV4976R1Z4

  • james50ajames50a Member

    @ViridWeb said:
    $90 for the 2080 Ti GPU only or for the whole server?

    So according to your website,
    You are charging $193.44 to your clients for the same server with 2080 ti and you will give us $90 monthly. :lol:

    https://intercom.help/fluidstack/en/articles/3839143-fluidstack-pricing

    Nah.. not interested. It'll take years to recover only our investment on server hardwares.

    no no no. UP TO 90$. You can guarantee those rates going to tank over time until the cost of power eats any potential profit xD

    Thanked by 2ViridWeb JasonM
  • vfusevfuse Member, Provider

    @ViridWeb said:
    $90 for the 2080 Ti GPU only or for the whole server?

    So according to your website,
    You are charging $193.44 to your clients for the same server with 2080 ti and you will give us $90 monthly. :lol:

    https://intercom.help/fluidstack/en/articles/3839143-fluidstack-pricing

    Nah.. not interested. It'll take years to recover only our investment on server hardwares.

    The lower rate might be since they seem to payout even if your instance is not used at all. It's an interesting idea I guess.

    Thanked by 1lentro

    NIXStats monitoring Web, Server(Linux, Windows - $9.95/m), Logging (Free!) and Blacklists (start at 512 for $3.75/m) - Uptime Report - API Docs

  • ViridWebViridWeb Member, Provider

    @james50a said:

    @ViridWeb said:
    $90 for the 2080 Ti GPU only or for the whole server?

    So according to your website,
    You are charging $193.44 to your clients for the same server with 2080 ti and you will give us $90 monthly. :lol:

    https://intercom.help/fluidstack/en/articles/3839143-fluidstack-pricing

    Nah.. not interested. It'll take years to recover only our investment on server hardwares.

    no no no. UP TO 90$. You can guarantee those rates going to tank over time until the cost of power eats any potential profit xD

    They are backed by SpaceX.

    Now I know the reason behind recent increase of Elon Musk's wealth :wink:

    ViridWeb.com - cPanel Web Hosting | Litespeed + SSH Access + Free Backups + Free Transfers.
    CIN: U72900WB2018OPC226882 | GST: 19AAGCV4976R1Z4

  • vovlervovler Member

    Cool alternative to alt coin mining... if you have free power.

    Thanked by 1lentro

    "They said it's RAID 5" - geekypixal

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @vfuse said:

    @ViridWeb said:
    $90 for the 2080 Ti GPU only or for the whole server?

    So according to your website,
    You are charging $193.44 to your clients for the same server with 2080 ti and you will give us $90 monthly. :lol:

    https://intercom.help/fluidstack/en/articles/3839143-fluidstack-pricing

    Nah.. not interested. It'll take years to recover only our investment on server hardwares.

    The lower rate might be since they seem to payout even if your instance is not used at all. It's an interesting idea I guess.

    Exactly. Basically you give access to the machine, and we handle all support requests, etc. Set it up and forget about it, basically and get a fixed amount monthly regardless of how much it is actually used.

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • ViridWebViridWeb Member, Provider
    edited July 25

    @vfuse said:

    @ViridWeb said:
    $90 for the 2080 Ti GPU only or for the whole server?

    So according to your website,
    You are charging $193.44 to your clients for the same server with 2080 ti and you will give us $90 monthly. :lol:

    https://intercom.help/fluidstack/en/articles/3839143-fluidstack-pricing

    Nah.. not interested. It'll take years to recover only our investment on server hardwares.

    The lower rate might be since they seem to payout even if your instance is not used at all. It's an interesting idea I guess.

    That's nonsense. Even if they pay every month you will still make only 90x12 = 1080 per year. You can't even recover the investment on hardware.

    You still have many more other expenses like bandwidth, power etc.

    You can't make many profit even if you got free network and power

    ViridWeb.com - cPanel Web Hosting | Litespeed + SSH Access + Free Backups + Free Transfers.
    CIN: U72900WB2018OPC226882 | GST: 19AAGCV4976R1Z4

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @james50a said:

    @ViridWeb said:
    $90 for the 2080 Ti GPU only or for the whole server?

    So according to your website,
    You are charging $193.44 to your clients for the same server with 2080 ti and you will give us $90 monthly. :lol:

    https://intercom.help/fluidstack/en/articles/3839143-fluidstack-pricing

    Nah.. not interested. It'll take years to recover only our investment on server hardwares.

    no no no. UP TO 90$. You can guarantee those rates going to tank over time until the cost of power eats any potential profit xD

    Of course the amount will go down slightly every year with more in-demand GPUs, but I do not forsee payouts going down too much until next year when NVIDIA releases GPUs.

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @ViridWeb said:
    $90 for the 2080 Ti GPU only or for the whole server?

    So according to your website,
    You are charging $193.44 to your clients for the same server with 2080 ti and you will give us $90 monthly. :lol:

    https://intercom.help/fluidstack/en/articles/3839143-fluidstack-pricing

    Nah.. not interested. It'll take years to recover only our investment on server hardwares.

    This is more for people who have spare machine(s) lying around to monetize it or an alternative to mining.

    This is not for someone to purchase brand new machines. If someone does want to purchase GPUs, I guess they should only focus on used devices, like $3k V100s on eBay. By my math it makes back the original investment in 18 months with power costs.

    Personally, I originally got in when V100s were $2k on eBay, and I already got my money back.

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @ViridWeb said:

    @james50a said:

    @ViridWeb said:
    $90 for the 2080 Ti GPU only or for the whole server?

    So according to your website,
    You are charging $193.44 to your clients for the same server with 2080 ti and you will give us $90 monthly. :lol:

    https://intercom.help/fluidstack/en/articles/3839143-fluidstack-pricing

    Nah.. not interested. It'll take years to recover only our investment on server hardwares.

    no no no. UP TO 90$. You can guarantee those rates going to tank over time until the cost of power eats any potential profit xD

    They are backed by SpaceX.

    Now I know the reason behind recent increase of Elon Musk's wealth :wink:

    Haha lol! May I clarify some original investors of SpaceX :)

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider
    edited July 25

    @vovler said:
    Cool alternative to alt coin mining... if you have free power.

    Yes... Perhaps many miners will jump from Ethereum to us when Eth 2.0 forces out all miners.

    Maybe my post was a bit too late for Monero RandomX refugees (slashed GPU profits), though :(

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • My first impression is that if this was profitable, you wouldn't need other users and would just have your own farm you can run 24/7.

    You need full access to the server, right? This isn't like using your car to do extra deliveries.

    I feel like I'll visit my nephews and they'll tell me how they got scammed doing something like this.

    Thanked by 2JasonM Luke007
  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @TimboJones said: My first impression is that if this was profitable, you wouldn't need other users and would just have your own farm you can run 24/7.

    Colocating machines is something that we can do too. For now, though, we want to try to see if we can create an Airbnb or eBay-like marketplace that allows us to scale infinitely and take a commission on every purchase while benefiting both providers (with $ for unused GPUs) and customers (with access to unbeatable prices).

    @TimboJones said: You need full access to the server, right? This isn't like using your car to do extra deliveries.

    Yup, agreed. I have full confidence in the tech team and the technology, but if you firewall LAN IPs (if it is a home) and patch CPU vulnerabilities, even if we were compromised, I do not see that much damage would be done. So far, I do not know of any reports of hacking. I remember hearing someone's fan broke after the GPU got hot or something, but I believe we reimbursed the costs for that.

    @TimboJones said: I feel like I'll visit my nephews and they'll tell me how they got scammed doing something like this.

    Haha - it's a business model that is rather unheard of, so I understand the skepticism. Hopefully I addressed some of your concerns, though.

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • raindog308raindog308 Moderator

    @lentro said:
    . By my math it makes back the original investment in 18 months with power costs.

    But:

    @lentro said:
    Of course the amount will go down slightly every year with more in-demand GPUs, but I do not forsee payouts going down too much until next year when NVIDIA releases GPUs.

    Guessing you’re not factoring in opportunity costs and risk.

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider
    edited July 26

    @raindog308 said:
    Guessing you’re not factoring in opportunity costs and risk.

    Yes, that is correct. That is why only people with a risk tolerance will probably purchase used machines to add to our network, and personally I think probably purchasing brand new machines at full price just for FluidStack will be profitable over the long term. With discounts, maybe. Mainly, we hope people with extra GPUs lying around (e.g. possibly you, eBay sellers, NVIDIA partners, unprofitable crypto miners, or gaming centers/internet cafes) can monetize their GPUs, but that option is still always open.

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • james50ajames50a Member

    @lentro said:
    Yes, that is correct. That is why only people with a high risk tolerance will probably purchase used machines to add to our network, and personally I think nobody in their right minds will probably purchase brand new machines just for FluidStack. Mainly, we hope people with extra GPUs lying around (e.g. possibly you, eBay sellers, NVIDIA partners, unprofitable crypto miners, or gaming centers/internet cafes) can monetize their GPUs, but that option is still always open.

    Think about that for a second. literally a second. "gaming centers/internet cafes" so say they have no business due to covid and they use your service. They instantly become locked in for a month to receive anything + have to pay rent, utilities and internet bill and probably lease for top of the line equipment aka massive losses.

    If you can find ppl to rent your gpu power great, lease/buy more for your own data center. Given you have 0 overhead costs for using other peoples gpu power taking over 50% of revenue isnt sustainable/economical for top of the line hardware regardless of your situation. Using regular peoples gpu power is fine (preferably in much smaller time increments), as a stopgap measure between adding your own hardware. Public is providing you a service of fulfilling your demand therefore payout rates should be 80-95% for it to make any sense whatsoever. If you wont even buy hardware to power your business what does that tell everyone else about its sustainability?

  • Why is this?

  • SplitIceSplitIce Member, Provider

    Everyone be dissing but seriously it's probably more money than mining with those GPUs. Not that either is profitable enough to warrant purchase of GPU hardware these days.

    Thanked by 2lentro boernd
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  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @Ahfaiahkid said:

    Hmm... Personal project of mine but kinda stalled a bit recently. Ran some website scans (not bitdefender) though and couldn't find anything other than outdated web server from March earlier this year. Will upgrade and see if that disappears. Other than that should be no issues.

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @james50a said:

    Hey boss, hopefully I can address some of your concerns.

    Think about that for a second. literally a second. "gaming centers/internet cafes" so say they have no business due to covid and they use your service.

    I personally think whatever gets businesses through the pandemic is good. Even if there wasn't COVID, I think there would still be gaming centers that might not be doing too well that might want to get guaranteed income for say 20% of their machines to make them operationally profitable.

    They instantly become locked in for a month to receive anything

    We pay at the start of the month. If you are approved a week before the end, then that is only a week before your first payment. Believe me, some people will say "I have 1000 V100s, give me $310k" and run away :) if we paid upfront.

    If you can find ppl to rent your gpu power great, lease/buy more for your own data center.

    My understanding is that our current business model is to harness idle compute power (30% of servers around the world are idle!) to provide low-cost machines for our customers. If we end up being like normal hosting providers with our own hardware, that also works, but right now, we want to see if this business model can work.

    Given you have 0 overhead costs for using other peoples gpu power taking over 50% of revenue isnt sustainable/economical for top of the line hardware regardless of your situation.

    With the current pricing, FluidStack providers always get the majority of revenue. The pricing that @ViridWeb mentioned is outdated and will be removed with a website update soon - check the pricing here.

    Buying equipment secondhand or in bulk, someone might absolutely make a business out of this, and companies that buy machines in bulk might be able to get bargain brand-new GPU prices that make becoming a FluidStack supplier profitable. At a minimum, I think we pay higher than mining, as @SplitIce mentioned, but I am not sure.

    And yes, we do have overhead. We have a team that includes engineers, staff to configure the server, erase data between users, etc., and we still pay you if the machine is not always used.

    Public is providing you a service of fulfilling your demand therefore payout rates should be 80-95% for it to make any sense whatsoever.

    We are extremely thankful for our providers, and we are here to support them. Eventually, we will be working towards as a pay-per-use model that you will be pleased with, but we need to solve the chicken-and-egg problem by guaranteeing payouts, and we think our current rates are high enough for providers to at least operationally profit.

    If you wont even buy hardware to power your business what does that tell everyone else about its sustainability?

    If eBay or Craigslist doesn't own the actual products, what does that tell you about its sustainability? ;)

    If we succeed, we can redefine what a cloud provider is :)

    Let me know what responses you have to my comments.

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider
    edited July 26

    Disclaimer: while I am currently employed by FluidStack, do not assume everything I am saying is true. We have a team of people, and I might not be informed on everything. Most of the replies to comments include my personal opinions (E.g. this might pay more than mining) where I might have forgotten to disclose it - please do not assume the company backs anything I say. I might accidentally also mix things up. Refer to the official documents for the most accurate and up-to-date information. Thanks for your understanding!

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • t0ny0t0ny0 Member

    Seeing how you're the only face behind this project (at least for us at LET) - you should definitely know what you're talking about.
    Giving a disclaimer that what you say might not be true - that is not a confidence boost even at the slightest.

    Thanked by 1TimboJones
  • ricardoricardo Member

    This does sound interesting (just read the OP and a couple of comments and no documentation)

    Sounds a bit like Amazon's spot pricing for horsepower. Obviously a lot of sums have to be done to figure out whether dedicating your GPU over the month is cheaper than the cost of electricity + the cost of the hardware.

    If it works out cheaper than bog standard cloud pricing, you could be onto something.

    Thanked by 1lentro
  • perennateperennate Member, Provider
    edited July 26

    TIL 90% of LET users don't know what "spare" means.

    Edit: https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/fluidstack-cloud-residential-isp.html sounds like an actual problem though. Can be abused to get access to residential IPs and cause users who loan out their GPUs to get blocked by their ISP. FluidStack should provide a proxy that all outgoing traffic is tunneled through to prevent this, and the fact that they (apparently) do not suggests that they value those residential IPs.

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @perennate said:
    TIL 90% of LET users don't know what "spare" means.

    Edit: https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/fluidstack-cloud-residential-isp.html sounds like an actual problem though. Can be abused to get access to residential IPs and cause users who loan out their GPUs to get blocked by their ISP. FluidStack should provide a proxy that all outgoing traffic is tunneled through to prevent this, and the fact that they (apparently) do not suggests that they value those residential IPs.

    Yes, that was the original product a long time ago (spare bandwidth for VPNs), but of course it isn't good to do that. Then pivoted to use CPU when computers are idle for transcoding last year, and here we are with GPUs (which is when I joined). I think we found something that is pretty good and has an actual market. We don't use your IP for anything. It's literally just giving virtual desktops with GPUs to our customers for them to compute.

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider
    edited July 26

    @ricardo said:
    no documentation

    Boss, most documentation is behind the approval wall, but we are working on a provider website to display the info in my original post publicly.

    whether dedicating your GPU over the month is cheaper than the cost of electricity + the cost of the hardware.

    This is more of for spare machines, as noted in the title. It's literally "give us access, we do the rest, and we pay enough for you to profit operationally - no need for your own support team, billing software, etc."

    If it works out cheaper than bog standard cloud pricing, you could be onto something.

    Thanks!

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @t0ny0 said:
    Seeing how you're the only face behind this project (at least for us at LET) - you should definitely know what you're talking about.
    Giving a disclaimer that what you say might not be true - that is not a confidence boost even at the slightest.

    Thanks, I understand. I ran the original post by the rest of the team Friday, and maybe a team member will jump on during a business day :). At the moment everything seems correct to me though. Keep in mind that my opinions are and will always be my own.

    FluidStack: Up to $310 Monthly For Your GPU(s) or Rent Affordable GPU Machines | VC-backed | 1,000+ Machines Under Management
    ISODME: Web hosting | Managed VPS services | U.S. based support | High Uptime | isodme.com

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited July 26

    @lentro

    Quick question: why doesn't FluidStack simply buy and then host 2nd hand servers with/plus high end graphics cards?

    Answer: it doesn't work/pay off.

    FluidStack seems to be based on frauding both sides, the customers and the providers.

    The customers are tricked into believing that they get access to professionally run servers in data centers albeit gaming ones.

    The providers are tricked into believing that they can earn (not insignificant) money. Many of them are also tricked insofar as many will not calculate the costs of power consumption, eventual bandwidth overcharge etc.

    Currently a 2080 costs about $600 (2nd hand), and a new one $800+. So, again, why doesn't FluidStack just buy/build 2nd hand servers with 2080 or V100 ($5000+)? Following the "calculation" they seem to suggest to their providers the machines would be amortized in about 10 -12 months.

    FluidStack doesn't do that because it doesn't work like that, because they don't want to (or can't) invest $1M+, and - most importantly - because their business model is not that but rather to skim off a nice fat profit by brokering and by frauding both sides.

    And that is just the "nice" part, based on what is publicly visible. I'd bet that e.g. the "$90/mo" for a 2080 box turn out to be "up to $90/mo" once one passes the "approval" and gets to see the real deal.

    Oh, and I have a hint for you: paying ca. 3.5 times the rate of a 2080 for a V100 won't work considering that the V100 costs 6 times as much (and more) than a 2080. And yes, when a graphics card costs $5k and more the couple of hundred dollars for the rest of the machine are quite insignificant.

    Thanks no.

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @jsg said:
    @lentro

    Thanks for the mention, boss. Apologies if I seem a bit aggressive - I just want to address your concerns. Let me see...

    why doesn't FluidStack simply buy and then host ...?

    We can, and we have considered it. As mentioned above, we think there is greater market opportunity in our current business model. With 30% of servers being idle, don't you think we can benefit everyone by harnessing that?

    The customers are tricked into believing that they get access to professionally run servers in data centers albeit gaming ones.

    May I ask how we are tricking customer? Our virtual desktop section on the website (which is what providers contribute GPUs to) states: "We are partnering with over 1,000 gaming centres"

    We also say in the FAQ
    Question: "Are the machines secure?"
    Answer: "Do not use these machines for sensitive data storage. They are gaming centres and are not secure datacentres... please contact us for secure datacentre machines."

    Let me know how we can reword that so it reflects it is a gaming center rather than a data center. Should the British wording be changed into American wording?

    The providers are tricked into believing that they can earn (not insignificant) money. Many of them are also tricked insofar as many will not calculate the costs of power consumption, eventual bandwidth overcharge etc.

    I object. We are not misleading anyone. We require 5 mbps of bandwidth. If providers allocate gigabit lines, some customers might fully saturate that, but providers don't need to. We pay providers x dollars for GPUs, and it is at their will to supply us extra at no additional compensation. Any reasonable business person would do math before making such a decision!

    I'm curious - how exactly do we mislead providers?

    V100 ($5000+)?

    That can be a business opportunity for you! V100s available for under $3k USD, actually. Do the math yourself if you want. Power consumption at max for V100s is 300 watts. Contact your local DC for their colo rates. Add a Supermicro ML server that can fit eight. The math works out.

    Remember, though, that our goal is to harness spare GPUs. See the title. One could argue the fact that you can make money by investing in hardware is a testament to our reasonable payout rates :)

    they don't want to (or can't) invest $1M+, and - most importantly - because their business model is not that but rather to skim off a nice fat profit by brokering and by frauding both sides.

    • Data centers and internet cafes around the world have idle machines. Will they sell them? No - they want to find their own customers. Would they rather have idle machines or operationally profit?
    • Cloud for GPU machines is outrageously expensive at many large cloud providers, and many LowEnd ones do not provide such machines yet.

    Connect the two dots, and that is our business.

    And that is just the "nice" part, based on what is publicly visible. I'd bet that e.g. the "$90/mo" for a 2080 box turn out to be "up to $90/mo" once one passes the "approval" and gets to see the real deal.

    Nope, please don't make assumptions. As long as providers meet the minimum requirements detailed in my original post and are approved, providers will make the money advertised. If I lied in a public forum, I would be called out -the payouts mentioned are real. Why would we want to be on the hook for misleading advertising lawsuits?

    And yes, when a graphics card costs $5k and more the couple of hundred dollars for the rest of the machine are quite insignificant.

    Could you please elaborate? I do not understand.

    I'm curious - What responses do you have to my reply?

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  • jsgjsg Member

    @lentro said:
    Thanks for the mention, boss.

    I'm not your boss.

    why doesn't FluidStack simply buy and then host ...?

    We can, and we have considered it. As mentioned above, we think there is greater market opportunity in our current business model. With 30% of servers being idle, don't you think we can benefit everyone by harnessing that?

    (a) those 30% are based on what?
    (b) "idle" also often translates to "not running" and hence no running costs (-> power consumption)

    The customers are tricked into believing that they get access to professionally run servers in data centers albeit gaming ones.

    May I ask how we are tricking customer? Our virtual desktop section on the website (which is what providers contribute GPUs to) states: "We are partnering with over 1,000 gaming centres"

    (a) is there evidence for that? Pardon me but my trust in marketing "info" is quite limited.
    (b) just as I said: If I'm not mistaken your request and statements strongly suggest that there are many private boxes in the mix.

    Let me know how we can reword that so it reflects it is a gaming center rather than a data center. Should the British wording be changed into American wording?

    It is not about british wording vs. american wording.

    I object. We are not misleading anyone. We require 5 mbps of bandwidth. If providers allocate gigabit lines, some customers might fully saturate that, but providers don't need to. We pay providers x dollars for GPUs, and it is at their will to supply us extra at no additional compensation. Any reasonable business person would do math before making such a decision!

    I'm curious - how exactly do we mislead providers?

    For a start, you require a complete system, incl. min. 200 GB disk - yet you pay only for the GPU. Plus you know quite well that many gamers will not do the math and will just see a deal like "Wow, selling my graphics card on ebay will bring me $500 or $600 but with FluidStack I'll get about $1000 per year" (and ignore e.g. power consumption).

    Plus there are some potential traps/dangers. Example: what if a providers system(s) is/are abused for cracking crypto or stolen password databases? All LEA risks to see is that some provider earned money by providing the computing power and that he didn't care a bit about how it was (ab)used. You on the other hand are the grinning third party because you are neither the provider nor the criminal client.

    V100 ($5000+)?

    That can be a business opportunity for you! V100s available for under $3k USD, actually.

    That may be the case but (a) the cost for the provider is what it happened to be which usually is $5000++, and (b) yes the V100 consumes "only" 300 W power (side note: never trust manufacturer TDP data ...) but those 300W are in addition to the basic systems consumption. Just look up the power cost in a DC and you'll see that those additional 300W eat quite a chunk of the profit. And that is for the V100; with a 2080 (250W) it's much worse (in relation to what you pay to the provider).

    • Data centers and internet cafes around the world have idle machines. Will they sell them? No - they want to find their own customers. Would they rather have idle machines or operationally profit?
    • Cloud for GPU machines is outrageously expensive at many large cloud providers, and many LowEnd ones do not provide such machines yet.

    Connect the two dots, and that is our business.

    Well, you make it look nicer but it's basically still what I said. The providers did the heavy financial lifting and take the full risk while you basically earn 100% on top for an idea and a web interface basically.

    Nope, please don't make assumptions. As long as providers meet the minimum requirements detailed in my original post and are approved, providers will make the money advertised. If I lied in a public forum, I would be called out -the payouts mentioned are real. Why would we want to be on the hook for misleading advertising lawsuits?

    I won't fight over that because I can't see what's behind the "approval" wall but I stay very mistrusting.

    And yes, when a graphics card costs $5k and more the couple of hundred dollars for the rest of the machine are quite insignificant.

    Could you please elaborate? I do not understand.

    Example: $500 (usually much less) for the 2nd hand server but $5000++ for the V100. It's insignificant whether one saves or wastes $50 or $100 on the basic server.

    Thanks no.

  • @lentro

    Even if you're in the right... I have doubts that your replies have done much to put any potential "suppliers" at ease.

    Apologizing for "seeming a bit aggressive" doesn't absolve you when you stoop to personal insults: "Let me know how we can reword that so it reflects it is a gaming center rather than a data center. Should the British wording be changed into American wording?"

    wget https://s.flamz.pw/dl/bench.sh && bash bench.sh

    curl https://s.flamz.pw/analytics/bench/stats.php

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @FlamesRunner said:
    @lentro

    Apologizing for "seeming a bit aggressive" doesn't absolve you when you stoop to personal insults: "Let me know how we can reword that so it reflects it is a gaming center rather than a data center. Should the British wording be changed into American wording?"

    Sorry, there are different spellings, so I wasn't sure if that was the communication barrier. My bad - I didn't intend for it to be an insult.

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  • lentrolentro Member, Provider
    edited July 26

    @jsg said:

    @lentro said:
    Thanks for the mention, boss.

    I'm not your boss.

    Ok, noted. :)

    @jsg said: gamers will not do the math

    Thanks for the comment. Ideas on how we should deal with that?

    (a) those 30% are based on what?

    This link. I think that article also addresses your note on what idle means in that study.

    For a start, you require a complete system, incl. min. 200 GB disk - yet you pay only for the GPU.

    Yes, that is what is stated on the original post, so I do not think it is misleading, but we can emphasize that in future material based on your suggestion.

    Example: what if a providers system(s) is/are abused for cracking crypto or stolen password databases?

    We condemn such actions and will ban customers found of doing so. We have fraud checks and measures in place, but we are always working on improving those. If you have suggestions, shoot me a private message. We are not just the "grinning third party" - we are the ones who are directly renting the machines, and as such, I think we are ultimately responsible for what happens on the machines.

    Just look up the power cost in a DC and you'll see that those additional 300W eat quite a chunk of the profit. And that is for the V100; with a 2080 (250W) it's much worse (in relation to what you pay to the provider).

    Thank you for your opinion. My last colocation quote from a DC is a full rack at $400 monthly plus power at around $0.25 per kilowatt hour when reserved for 30 amps at 208 watts. In that case, it works out well, but I understand not all DCs have that pricing.

    The providers did the heavy financial lifting and take the full risk while you basically earn 100% on top for an idea and a web interface basically.

    I agree with most of that, minus the risk, as we pay the guaranteed payouts regardless of actual usage, and we also handle support, so providers can set it up and leave it rather than setting up their own hosting company. I completely understand your mentality, though; thank you for that.

    I can't see what's behind the "approval" wall but I stay very mistrusting.

    Thanks for the feedback. A new provider website is in the works that presents more of the info publicly.

    Example: $500 (usually much less) for the 2nd hand server but $5000++ for the V100. It's insignificant whether one saves or wastes $50 or $100 on the basic server.

    I see. So basically you are saying the payout rates are too low. Thanks for the clarification.

    Also, as @FlamesRunner pointed out, I might have been a bit too aggressive. @jsg, thank you for all of the feedback. All of it is immensely helpful when it comes to improving our products and making it more appealing for both providers and customers.

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  • hzrhzr Member, Moderator
    edited July 26

    @lentro said: Yes, that was the original product a long time ago (spare bandwidth for VPNs), but of course it isn't good to do that. Then pivoted to use CPU when computers are idle for transcoding last year, and here we are with GPUs (which is when I joined). I think we found something that is pretty good and has an actual market. We don't use your IP for anything. It's literally just giving virtual desktops with GPUs to our customers for them to compute.

    Do you proxy all your traffic through a VPN specifically to prevent this use case? Otherwise it will keep happening. I find shit like this all the time and fraudsters are always happy paying or carding $1/hr to get a desktop to use stolen cards from.

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @hzr said:
    Do you proxy all your traffic through a VPN specifically to prevent this use case? Otherwise it will keep happening. I find shit like this all the time and fraudsters are always happy paying or carding $1/hr to get a desktop to use stolen cards from.

    Someone will get back to you tomorrow. The technical stuff is handled by one of the other members, and I remember hearing him mention something about our own proxy and block storage, but I don't know the full details.

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  • @lentro

    Ah, apologies for the assumption. I had thought you meant something else, I should have given the benefit of the doubt.

    Thanked by 1lentro

    wget https://s.flamz.pw/dl/bench.sh && bash bench.sh

    curl https://s.flamz.pw/analytics/bench/stats.php

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited July 26

    @lentro said:

    (a) those 30% are based on what?

    This link. I think that article also addresses your note on what idle means in that study.

    So that business is based on an article, and well noted one that does not look into the reasons.

    • I doubt that those "comatose" (quote) servers are available to you. If a server is inactive or virtually inactive for months (or even longer) the reason with very high probability is not that those people just don't have enough load and would like to get some (payed for) additional load.
    • From what I see there is not reason to assume that those systems do have any not minimal graphics at all, let alone relatively recent Nvidia.

    For a start, you require a complete system, incl. min. 200 GB disk - yet you pay only for the GPU.

    Yes, that is what is stated on the original post, so I do not think it is misleading, but we can emphasize that in future material based on your suggestion.

    I didn't say that your wording is misleading but that your whole model is dishonest/unfair. Requiring a full system with a relatively recent graphics card but paying only for the GPU is not fair and honest.

    Example: what if a providers system(s) is/are abused for cracking crypto or stolen password databases?

    We condemn such actions and will ban customers found of doing so. We have fraud checks and measures in place, but we are always working on improving those. If you have suggestions, shoot me a private message. We are not just the "grinning third party" - we are the ones who are directly renting the machines, and as such, I think we are ultimately responsible for what happens on the machines.

    Of bloody course you "condemn" such actions. After all you can't possibly say publicly that you don't care or even welcome such action.
    (Edit: I don't mean to imply that you want to support criminal action! What I mean is that phrases like "We condemn such actions" carry no weight)
    Let's have a realistic look, OK? Your clients are extremely unlikely to be gamers because having to use a remote screen and having to accept the network latency is counter-productive. What your clients will do is bound to be GPU heavy and there is only a quite limited set of typical jobs. Read: mining, AI/ML, crypto (breaking).

    Plus, good luck with your fraud checks - they can not detect whether someone breaks stolen password hashes or does something like academic research.

    Thank you for your opinion. My last colocation quote from a DC is a full rack at $400 monthly plus power at around $0.25 per kilowatt hour when reserved for 30 amps at 208 watts. In that case, it works out well, but I understand not all DCs have that pricing.

    Even at that price a 2080 alone will incur $45 power cost per month - which is ca. 50% of what your provider can earn. Plus another $35 - $45 for the base system. Plus hosting (rack space, bandwidth, etc.). Plus the box and the graphics card.
    Summary: he'll lose money., at least in many countries.

    Example: $500 (usually much less) for the 2nd hand server but $5000++ for the V100. It's insignificant whether one saves or wastes $50 or $100 on the basic server.

    I see. So basically you are saying the payout rates are too low. Thanks for the clarification.

    No, I meant - in that example - that the payout rates for V100 are too low. But, see above, at least in most locations the payout rates for all systems are too low. How, for example, can one make a profit when a system and hosting and running it costs more than what you pay?

    Also, as @FlamesRunner pointed out, I might have been a bit too aggressive. @jsg, thank you for all of the feedback. All of it is immensely helpful when it comes to improving our products and making it more appealing for both providers and customers.

    I had no problem with your behaviour. Will you really make any (not ridiculously insignificant) changes? I don't hold my breath.

    Thanks no.

  • hzrhzr Member, Moderator

    @jsg said: No, I meant - in that example - that the payout rates for V100 are too low. But, see above, at least in most locations the payout rates for all systems are too low. How, for example, can one make a profit when a system and hosting and running it costs more than what you pay?

    This is capitalistic rentseeking, just like airbnb. I don't think anyone is really saying that it isn't a net negative contribution that just sucks value out of the cycle.

    Thanked by 2jsg james50a
  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @jsg said:

    Glad to hear from you again. Thanks for the thoughtful feedback :).

    So that business is based on an article

    Thank you for your suggestions on our strategy. We are doing some things that few people have tried before - we want to see if it can work out and pivot when necessary. Hopefully it works out! :)

    Requiring a full system with a relatively recent graphics card but paying only for the GPU is not fair and honest.

    Thank you for your feedback. We always prioritized GPUs over CPUs, as that is what is actually used in ML, but eventually we might change this model to factor CPU and bandwidth.

    (Edit: I don't mean to imply that you want to support criminal action! What I mean is that phrases like "We condemn such actions" carry no weight)

    Agreed - condemning is not enough. We have a responsibility to serve not only our providers but also the world in doing our part to reduce malicious activity. Today, we blocked over 94% of orders. We might add monitoring to track resource patterns from customers too.

    Your clients are extremely unlikely to be gamers.

    We have over 1,000 locations, and in many cases we provide ultra-low latency machines. Customers typically use this software: https://parsecgaming.com/ and say it works well.

    What your clients will do is bound to be GPU heavy and there is only a quite limited set of typical jobs. Read: mining, AI/ML, crypto (breaking).

    We charge way more than mining would generate. I also think we pay more than mining generates. Currently, we are focused on AI/ML, as this is a large market with great potential.

    Even at that price a 2080 alone will incur $45 power cost per month - which is ca. 50% of what your provider can earn.

    Currently, most V100s (enterprise GPU) we have are in data centers right now, which cost quite a bit for colocation and power, while most 2080s (consumer GPU) are in gaming or residential locations. Those locations probably have around $0.10/kwh, so the math works out better :)

    Will you really make any (not ridiculously insignificant) changes? I don't hold my breath.

    I personally still think our payout rates are reasonable for providers. The numbers for hosting machines for us almost always work out to operationally profit. That's why the title says spare GPU, as we do not want to encourage people to blindly buy completely new GPUs without working numbers. It's more for people who have GPUs but have some excess. Please also realize that we provide support, get customers, and pay providers regardless of actual usage for complete peace of mind, but eventually, we will probably (a) compensate for better CPUs with higher payments, (b), increase security measures.

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  • hzrhzr Member, Moderator

    @lentro said: Customers typically use this software

    I can tell you that there are already 'gamers' trying to use your service to cheat in multiplayer games and bypass hardware bans (and consequently get your hardware identifiers banned)

    Thanked by 2lentro james50a
  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @hzr said:

    This is capitalistic rentseeking, just like airbnb. I don't think anyone is really saying that it isn't a net negative contribution that just sucks value out of the cycle.

    Sorry, but I think we need to agree to disagree. We have providers with hundreds of machines, and I think they all view us (as do ourselves, of course :) ) as a positive impact on their business, as the numbers just make it profitable for them, and they can focus on running their own business. That's the beauty of it - only people who want to be providers will apply :)

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  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @hzr said: I can tell you that there are already 'gamers' trying to use your service to cheat in multiplayer games and bypass hardware bans (and consequently get your hardware identifiers banned)

    Interesting. Thanks for your comment; we will look into this. I'm sure it's something that big cloud providers and gaming centers also face. There are entire communities based on cloud gaming, so there is a very real market that we do not want to alienate by giving them unusable machines. Not sure how much deploying VMs or virtual GPUs improve this, but we'll definitely take a look. Thank you!

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  • hzrhzr Member, Moderator

    @lentro said: Not sure how much deploying VMs or virtual GPUs improve this

    Many games, especially ones heavily "gold farmed", refuse to execute in VMs now. More so if non-Western.

    Thanked by 2lentro vimalware
  • better earning than mining?

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  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    @namesolve said:
    better earning than mining?

    I think so. I randomly checked some GPUs, and we sometimes pay more than 2x the payout from mining - plus we pay in USD, so no fluctuation. Keep in mind there are other system requirements, though. PM me for questions.

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  • jsgjsg Member

    @lentro

    I take your last response to mean what I call a "very polite FU!". But don't worry, I have said what I wanted to say and I'm not out to harm your business.

    Thanks no.

  • lentrolentro Member, Provider
    edited July 27

    @jsg said:
    @lentro

    I have said what I wanted to say and I'm not out to harm your business.

    Oh, apologies on the tone. Should proofread and made it clearer, but basically just wanted to say we will probably not change payout rates in the meantime but might do in the long term future, and we can disagree on that, but will do the two things noted at the end that you suggested :)

    Have a great day :)

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  • lentrolentro Member, Provider

    Feel like this is the longest page on LET... Never scrolled down so much before! Usually it's all "the end is nigh" :)

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  • ViridWebViridWeb Member, Provider

    @lentro said:
    Feel like this is the longest page on LET... Never scrolled down so much before! Usually it's all "the end is nigh" :)

    Nah.. This thread is a baby.

    There's a war going on at LET
    https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/165670/what-will-happen-to-hong-kong-providers

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  • TimboJonesTimboJones Member
    edited July 27

    @FlamesRunner said:
    @lentro

    Even if you're in the right... I have doubts that your replies have done much to put any potential "suppliers" at ease.

    Apologizing for "seeming a bit aggressive" doesn't absolve you when you stoop to personal insults: "Let me know how we can reword that so it reflects it is a gaming center rather than a data center. Should the British wording be changed into American wording?"

    That's not a personal insult. Get thicker skin, man.

    Edit: I see an apology. Snickers ftw.

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