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    Do I lose much by going for Open VZ 7 rather than nested virtualization?
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    Do I lose much by going for Open VZ 7 rather than nested virtualization?

    k9bangerk9banger Member
    edited November 7 in Help

    I want to run my own stuff on a powerful VPS, ie I am not sharing anything with anybody.

    It is just about consolidating the small nodes scattered here and there onto a single powerful system as the tasks are not that demanding.

    I generally use KVM because I prefer the isolation and I don't have to ask the provider to tweak this or tweak that because it is the equivalent of a dedicated server with some minor omissions.

    If I switch to Open VZ 7 will I lose much over KVM? What are the significant features I will miss?

    I want to consolidate on some Netcup's root servers eg the RS 4000 which comes with 32Gb RAM and 6 dedicated cores.

    The problem is with Netcup cpu passthrough will cost 12 euro a month (2 euro per core) and it has to be paid yearly in advance and that makes me wonder whether plain Open VZ 7 will work just as fine.

    I suppose I could go for a cheap dedicated with a provider like Hetzner, but I don't want to have to tackle hardware issues.

    Comments

    • If the tasks are not demanding, do you need CPU passthrough? I think you already said the most important benefit KVM has, which is isolation. That alone is worth it over OpenVZ 7.

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    • @poisson said:
      If the tasks are not demanding, do you need CPU passthrough? I think you already said the most important benefit KVM has, which is isolation. That alone is worth it over OpenVZ 7.

      The isolation I need on KVM is from other customers running on the same node, but since the OpenVZ is just me it is not that important.

      Does KVM provide better control compared with OVZ 7,over like throttling CPU and disk utilization?

    • KVM will almost always be preferable, you control the whole system including the kernel and drivers, but it generally costs more.

      OpenVZ is only worth considering if there's a price advantage, it's easier for the host to share resources and pack more users onto a node.

    • somiksomik Member

      On OVZ your host has full access to your files at all times. No virtual disks are created. It's written directly to disk.

      Still, go for it if you want to. It's all about choices and seeing what works best for you.

      Don't be so serious. It's just a forum. No one cares what you think anyway.

    • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Top Provider

      I think its going to depend on a number of factors that only you know, yes you loose some kernel/module control and some basic privacy/encryption options in terms of your data being seen from the host node (host).

      you can run docker on OpenVZ 7 keep in mind so that may offer you some psudo separation and granular control.

      OpenVZ 7 is great, but its not KVM,my gut tells me from the comments and questions you have made and asked that you should probably go for KVM.

      Thanked by 2ITLabs k9banger

      Had enough of the scams on lowendbox, lowendtalk is now being infiltrated by corruption so I have chosen to make an low end exit #lexit for now - you can find me HERE

    • @k9banger said:

      @poisson said:
      If the tasks are not demanding, do you need CPU passthrough? I think you already said the most important benefit KVM has, which is isolation. That alone is worth it over OpenVZ 7.

      The isolation I need on KVM is from other customers running on the same node, but since the OpenVZ is just me it is not that important.

      Does KVM provide better control compared with OVZ 7,over like throttling CPU and disk utilization?

      I am not sure if I am understanding you correctly. You intend to get a KVM box that supports nested virtualization and then you are trying to decide whether to nest OpenVZ 7 or KVM inside?

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    • dahartigandahartigan Member, Host Rep

      You may need to think outside the box a little bit with this. You can get any KVM, regardless of whether it has nested virtualization enabled or passed through, and then run LXC or even VZ containers within that KVM VPS.

      You would effectively be creating your own NAT VPS provider, but for yourself. My suggestion would be to install Proxmox.

      If you want to also run KVM, or if you REALLY have to, then look for a KVM that has the nested virt enabled, and then you can run LXC, VZ, and KVM on your VPS. With Proxmox, it's also possible.

      You will find that there are many benefits to using LXC or VZ on your own "private NAT service", over KVM, if you don't want or need KVM and the added costs/etc for getting nested virt enabled for you.

      TL;DR - go with whichever provider offers the KVM you want, throw Proxmox on it and enjoy your own LXC containers (or OpenVZ if you use an older version of Proxmox) - Nested virt only if you NEED to use KVM guests.

      Thanked by 1k9banger

      HostDoc representative | Purveyor of high quality potassium | "A KVM VPS with 64 IPs? Must be Evolution Host."

    • @dahartigan said:
      TL;DR - go with whichever provider offers the KVM you want, throw Proxmox on it and enjoy your own LXC containers (or OpenVZ if you use an older version of Proxmox) - Nested virt only if you NEED to use KVM guests.

      This is something I would like to try in order to level up my sysadmin skills. Can you point me to a detailed and clear guide, if you know of any?

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    • vyas11vyas11 Member
      edited November 7

      ....
      Define much

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    • dahartigandahartigan Member, Host Rep

      @poisson said:

      @dahartigan said:
      TL;DR - go with whichever provider offers the KVM you want, throw Proxmox on it and enjoy your own LXC containers (or OpenVZ if you use an older version of Proxmox) - Nested virt only if you NEED to use KVM guests.

      This is something I would like to try in order to level up my sysadmin skills. Can you point me to a detailed and clear guide, if you know of any?

      Try this..

      Install Debian 9 on your VPS first (you could use Debian 10 and Proxmox 6 but I haven't gone there yet)

      Read over this a couple of times before you start: https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Install_Proxmox_VE_on_Debian_Stretch

      Once you've understood what you need to do, go ahead and follow those instructions.

      Word to the wise - when it says about making sure your hostname is correct, it means that. If you have issues that would be your first culprit.

      Once you've done that, go to your hostname https:// on port 8006 and you should see a login screen.

      That is chapter one, hit me up for chapter 2 when you're at that point.

      Thanked by 2poisson ITLabs

      HostDoc representative | Purveyor of high quality potassium | "A KVM VPS with 64 IPs? Must be Evolution Host."

    • @vyas11 said:
      Do I lose much by going for Open VZ 7 rather than nested virtualization?

      image

      It is not a matter of money. I could go for Hetzner's AX41 or EX52 systems which cost the same as Netcup's RS-8000 systems and I wouldn't have to worry about contracting for a a whole year and paying in advance. I just don't want to deal with hardware issues, incompatibities or whatever when they happen, that is why I am more interested in highend VMs.

      PHP-Friends have equivalent similar specs but they don't have the high amount of low cost block storage close at hand that Netcup has, unless there is a provider with cheap block storage nearby with lower cost bandwidth

    • cybertechcybertech Member
      edited November 7

      Well if u just need a listening ear I'm always here

      relentless collector of highest clocked, highest performing KVM/NVMe/Gbit VPSes at the most competitive rates. just to hard idle them. zero knowledge on coding/programming; a mere hobbyist.

    • I would go with @dahartigan 's solution (in fact, I already do have netcup and contabo vps using this solution). I have installed proxmox on over 4-5 powerful vps and deployed several LXC vps (containers), on some nodes with NAT ip and reverse proxy, on some others combined NAT and additional ips. The overhead is minimum to almost zero, there is a great isolation, proxmox works like a charm, I can take backups of the whole vps (containers) and move them hassle-free to other nodes, I can split resources as mem and cpu cycles/threads easily, there is separate root logins for each container and I get all the benefits that contenarization gives.
      I am not a provider, so, I cannot participate the debate on how safe LXC is in matter of security that has to do with neigbours on a commercial environment, compared to OVZ6 (there is a lot of debate on this) but, as long as this will be used solely by you or, maybe, some trusted friends, business partners or trusted people, then, this is the solution.

      (Of course, you will loose some benefits that KVM offers like custom kernels or the need of full virtualization on some software/servers. but in most cases, this is not needed).

      • If a program actually fits in memory and has enough disk space, it is guaranteed to crash.
      • If such a program has not crashed yet, it is waiting for a critical moment before it crashes.

    • loeloe Member

      I'd recommend using LXC (can be unprivileged containers) within a KVM VPS.

    • vyas11vyas11 Member
      edited November 7

      @k9banger said:

      That was my point: Money becomes (Surprisingly) a moot point beyond a threshold.
      Time invested, ROI, opportunity cost, lost goodwill, customer support, frustrations..... all add up.

      Therefore going back to your question: the counter question is - what is the biggest value you stand to lose?

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    • dahartigandahartigan Member, Host Rep

      @jvnadr said:
      I would go with @dahartigan 's solution (in fact, I already do have netcup and contabo vps using this solution). I have installed proxmox on over 4-5 powerful vps and deployed several LXC vps (containers), on some nodes with NAT ip and reverse proxy, on some others combined NAT and additional ips. The overhead is minimum to almost zero, there is a great isolation, proxmox works like a charm, I can take backups of the whole vps (containers) and move them hassle-free to other nodes, I can split resources as mem and cpu cycles/threads easily, there is separate root logins for each container and I get all the benefits that contenarization gives.
      I am not a provider, so, I cannot participate the debate on how safe LXC is in matter of security that has to do with neigbours on a commercial environment, compared to OVZ6 (there is a lot of debate on this) but, as long as this will be used solely by you or, maybe, some trusted friends, business partners or trusted people, then, this is the solution.

      (Of course, you will loose some benefits that KVM offers like custom kernels or the need of full virtualization on some software/servers. but in most cases, this is not needed).

      Add into the mix google drive as a backup/template/iso storage source and mount that same folder on all your pve nodes for extra awesomeness. Unlimited backups, etc :-)

      I like to push envelopes a little, I have installed proxmox on a 1gb kvm successfully. Running a container for nginx, and a couple of small containers with static websites. Add a pinch of swap to taste.

      I find myself installing it on every KVM I get hold of, in fact, I have the installation routine almost memorized due to this lol. A nice copy/paste for my etc network interfaces for my NAT config and even starting rclone etc, and a reboot and I'm on my way.

      Thanked by 3ITLabs poisson k9banger

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    • And this is a netcup server with ssd, 24GB memory and 4 dedicated cores Xeon Gold 6140 (a real beast). Although i have not bought passthru for virt flags, LXC is working like a charm!

      • If a program actually fits in memory and has enough disk space, it is guaranteed to crash.
      • If such a program has not crashed yet, it is waiting for a critical moment before it crashes.

    • somiksomik Member

      @jvnadr said:
      And this is a netcup server with ssd, 24GB memory and 4 dedicated cores Xeon Gold 6140 (a real beast). Although i have not bought passthru for virt flags, LXC is working like a charm!

      Time for you to get an update. Proxmox 6 is out for a while.

      Thanked by 1jvnadr

      Don't be so serious. It's just a forum. No one cares what you think anyway.

    • somik said: Time for you to get an update. Proxmox 6 is out for a while.

      Yes, I know. I was too lazy to complete the update to all of my servers (had to take at first backups), so, I still have a couple on 4.4 ...

      • If a program actually fits in memory and has enough disk space, it is guaranteed to crash.
      • If such a program has not crashed yet, it is waiting for a critical moment before it crashes.

    • somiksomik Member

      @jvnadr said:

      somik said: Time for you to get an update. Proxmox 6 is out for a while.

      Yes, I know. I was too lazy to complete the update to all of my servers (had to take at first backups), so, I still have a couple on 4.4 ...

      I was running on 4.4 a few years back. Update to 5 was a pain in the rear. However 5 to 6 update was much easier in my opinion (although apparently there is a higher risk due to implementation of some new file system).

      I did reformat and reinstall it on a nvme SSD recently. Must say, I dont see much difference compared to when it was running off a Sata3 SSD...

      Don't be so serious. It's just a forum. No one cares what you think anyway.

    • @jvnadr said:
      I would go with @dahartigan 's solution (in fact, I already do have netcup and contabo vps using this solution). I have installed proxmox on over 4-5 powerful vps and deployed

      How do you rate Contabo? I have been with them twice in both instances I was disappointed.

      In one instance I couldn't even use the memory they promised and whey I complained the tech support blew me of on the grounds that it was a shared node, but I should upgrade to a dedicated if the VPS was not powerful enough. This was a personal server which would only be active if I accessed a web page.

      I haven't tried their SSD nodes yet, but are they performant enough?

    • @k9banger said:

      @jvnadr said:
      I would go with @dahartigan 's solution (in fact, I already do have netcup and contabo vps using this solution). I have installed proxmox on over 4-5 powerful vps and deployed

      How do you rate Contabo? I have been with them twice in both instances I was disappointed.

      In one instance I couldn't even use the memory they promised and whey I complained the tech support blew me of on the grounds that it was a shared node, but I should upgrade to a dedicated if the VPS was not powerful enough. This was a personal server which would only be active if I accessed a web page.

      I haven't tried their SSD nodes yet, but are they performant enough?

      Contabo has a mixed reputation. If you are concerned, there's Hetzner.

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    • k9banger said: How do you rate Contabo? I have been with them twice in both instances I was disappointed.

      It's always what are you expecting from a provider and his price. IMHO, Contabo is just perfect for what they do offer, both on their HDD and the SSD series.
      I have deployed proxmox on a HDD medium vps with 700 (!!) HDD space and it is working like a charm. What do I have there? An LXC instance with a backup server (takes images from other vps I run) with a huge 400GB space, a couple of nimble servers for rtmp/srt/sldp real time streaming ( a streamer for broadcast applications that takes rtmp as input and produces rtmp, rtsp, hls and srt streaming with latency as low as 200ms!), a vps with icecast on it for radio streaming, an openvpn server and a desktop (Linux Mint) that is not always on, I am using it more of occasionally tasks I want to do remotely.
      The server is online 271 days (since my last reboot) and runs like a charm.
      Contabo is one of my top providers, for providing that value for money.

      • If a program actually fits in memory and has enough disk space, it is guaranteed to crash.
      • If such a program has not crashed yet, it is waiting for a critical moment before it crashes.

    • @jvnadr said:

      k9banger said: How do you rate Contabo? I have been with them twice in both instances I was disappointed.

      It's always what are you expecting from a provider and his price. IMHO, Contabo is just perfect for what they do offer, both on their HDD and the SSD series.
      I have deployed proxmox on a HDD medium vps with 700 (!!) HDD space and it is working like a charm. What do I have there? An LXC instance with a backup server (takes images from other vps I run) with a huge 400GB space, a couple of nimble servers for rtmp/srt/sldp real time streaming ( a streamer for broadcast applications that takes rtmp as input and produces rtmp, rtsp, hls and srt streaming with latency as low as 200ms!), a vps with icecast on it for radio streaming, an openvpn server and a desktop (Linux Mint) that is not always on, I am using it more of occasionally tasks I want to do remotely.
      The server is online 271 days (since my last reboot) and runs like a charm.
      Contabo is one of my top providers, for providing that value for money.

      I guess have had bad luck with them, unless their service has improved drastically in the last year or two. You can rest assured my usage wasn't up to one-tenth of what you described.

    • I just remembered that OpenVZ 6 is out of date and Proxmox doesn't run OpenVZ 7.

      But I understand that OpenVZ 7 can run normal KVM as well as the normal container type OVZ &, ie it can run KVM and Open VZ in the same way that Proxmox 5 can run both KVM and Open VZ 6. Is that right or have I read it wrong?

      Has anyone tried that?

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