New on LowEndTalk? Please Register and read our Community Rules.
All new Registrations are manually reviewed and approved, so a short delay after registration may occur before your account becomes active.
All new Registrations are manually reviewed and approved, so a short delay after registration may occur before your account becomes active.
I forgot to cancel my PayPal subscription at Stockservers.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I would argue that since the buyer agreed to the arrangement that it's both of their problems and one that only the buyer can fix once set in place.
There's a very good reason why consumer law doesn't work that way: unlike B2B transactions, B2C transactions are asymmetrical; there's almost never negotiation both ways to come to an agreement, rather the seller offers a single option and the buyer gets to take it or leave it. To compensate for this and ensure fair trading, consumer laws generally place nearly all liability with the seller.
Which is exactly what happened. "Pay me $x dollars through one of these methods and I'll provide y." The user chose the payment method of entering a secondary contract with Paypal to pay that money for them automatically. The fact that they didn't read the contract terms is on them.
Edit: That sounds too adversarial for my liking. I would like to add, "At least that's how I would read it."
Actually I think sellers can cancel PayPal subscriptions.
But the point is... the buyer also has the capability to cancel these subscriptions. So in my book, the argument that the buyer complains to the seller about the seller not canceling the subscription doesn't hold a lot of water, when the buyer can just as easily log into their PayPal account and cancel the subscription.
The lack of end-user accountability here is disturbing.... "It's not MY fault that I forgot to cancel the subscription." When is it your fault for not doing or doing something? Never?
If PayPal did not offer the ability for buyers to cancel their own subscriptions, then this argument would be much different.
I don't think you understand my point. The fact that this is a B2C transaction and a limited set of options were offered means that therefore, this is not the responsibility of the buyer.
If you were to take this to the local equivalent of small claims court, it would likely be an easy win for the consumer in most European countries. It's really only people in the hosting industry who seem to believe that they can just pawn off the responsibility for lingering subscriptions to the customer.
It's not the buyer's responsibility to cancel a seller-initiated automatic charge, it's really that simple. Sure, the buyer could have, but it is not a reasonable expectation on their part, as they expect that - like with literally everything other than hosting - the automatic charges stop when the service is terminated.
Maybe I am misunderstanding. So you're saying that in Europe you literally can not allow for using a third party payment service?
Also, I have no idea how you guys do things over in Europe. Here in North America I'd be willing to bet it's very different.
Sure you can, but not seller-initiated. If you were to give the customer a bank account number and the customer decided for themselves to set up a subscription of their own volition, sure, it's the buyer's responsibility to cancel it (although you still don't get to keep money erroneously sent to you).
But if you provide a "here's your subscription, just click Accept" screen? Now it's your responsibility as a seller to cancel it, because you are presenting it as a part of your service. And this is ultimately what consumer law - at least in the EU, and I believe some Asian countries as well - is based around: what could the consumer reasonably expect given the impressions you gave them? It's the exact same reason you have to honour any non-obviously erroneous pricing, including in advertising.
I believe that consumer law is mostly handled on a state level in the US, but I've certainly seen similar legislation around subscriptions mentioned in the US as well. I would not be surprised if most states had consumer law that more or less matches what I described above, though I haven't checked.
As far as I am aware, the Buyer is the one initiating the subscription when they click the "Agree and Subscibe" button in PayPal.
Therefore it should be the buyer's responsibility to cancel the subscription - I don't see how it's any different to setting up a direct debit or standing order with your bank.
This is an implementation detail, and not relevant to how the customer perceives the service, and therefore also not relevant to who is responsible for cancelling it. The whole "consumer law is based on how you present things" is precisely to prevent this sort of "well, technically"ing.
@joepie91 you do realize the subscription it not setup via our site and is setup with PayPal, PayPal just gives us the option to monitor that subscription to see if a payment is made, whmcs doesn't impliment this very well as standard and we have refunded the OP as he didn't have a service so we won't keep the money, we are looking into billing agreements but in the mean time we have disabled PayPal subscriptions.
I'd like to say this again, the customers does not agree to pay us they agree to pay PayPal, the subscription is setup on PayPal website as thus we are not the liable person, but either way PayPal tos explains all this.
Again the OP has not commented for some time now but either way he has been refunded regardless of if he should or shouldn't have cancelled it, if you want to discuss who is liable to cancel the subscription maybe someone should start another thread dedicated to that
Skipped half the thread as I have better things to do, however you always need to make sure you cancel any subscriptions on your end.
Some companies do billing agreements, others subscriptions. A subscription is you agreeing to a set amount each month or whatever term you setup it on. YOU yes YOU are responsible for cancelling this subscription or it will keep coming out every month day year whatever you setup with it on.
If there is a PayPal agreement and the host cancels your service it shouldn't charge again unless you failed to cancel it before they invoiced you for the next service.
With most hosts opening a PayPal dispute before trying to work directly with them puts a sour taste in their mouth. It normally requires more work, no companies want to have disputes on their accounts. Often times only a few people have direct access to a companies PayPal accounts itself so it requires someone higher up to deal with the disputes which rather be spent on doing more productive things.
At the end of the day again don't be stupid look after your money and keep track of your subscriptions.
From what I understand: One good thing I found out in this thread is that Billing Agreement is a thing to look for if the providers find the subscription being a headache caused by clients not actually reading the Paypal agreement. As for me I don't have problems with either because I watch out for my poor $7.70 balance.
Well this thread got a lot of heat in the first page, thanks for the drama.
Just for giggles
Answer
photo
WHMCS Dev Team ● 4 years ago
Thanks for your votes on this feature, we know ourselves how PayPal Subscriptions can cause extra work in these situations. So I'm pleased to advise this is implemented in v6.0.
We have also added a "Cancel Subscription" button which will appear next to the Subscription ID field under the client's Products/Services tab, so PayPal Subscriptions can be manually cancelled directly within WHMCS.
https://requests.whmcs.com/topic/cancelled-orders-cancel-paypal-subscription
Did they remove this?
I knew exactly where this thread was going when I read the subject.
My take on some of this discussion..
Where a PayPal Subscription is offered, provide an alternative method (as I do). It's a pain to have to immediately cancel a subscription when signing up with a provider.
I never like PayPal Agreements (variable amounts can be taken) and was one of my pet hates with g'Daddy.
Not to add fuel to the fire.
Yes, I have been told several times now that technically the customer interacts directly with PayPal. I've also explained several times that that's an entirely irrelevant implementation detail.
It's good that you're looking into billing agreements now, but I want to be really clear about this: if you take PayPal subscriptions, and you integrate that into your payment flow, you absolutely are liable for any overcharges (in many jurisdictions), regardless of what the PayPal TOS say. PayPal TOS do not trump the law.
(Not to mention that from an ethical perspective, "but technically" is an incredibly shaky argument. I think it's exceedingly clear by now, after many years of people being very clearly confused by this, that customers expect the subscription to be provider-managed. If you care about your customers, you should either behave and implement things accordingly, or very clearly present it differently.)
That is good to hear
@joepie91 Completely get where you are coming from but obviously, the buyer agrees to PayPal TOS when ordering, As mentioned though the implementation of whmcs PayPal is a bit meh and hence we learnt our lesson and stopped offering this, It wasn't mandatory in the first place and was offered as an optional thing. I don't disagree with anything you saying but again if the buyer is to agree with PayPal's TOS then really they should still at least monitor there subscription, which leads me to my next comment on how whmcs deals with the cancellations but I will address that in regards to another comment.
@lazyt Yes this is implemented in WHMCS still and we can indeed cancel a subscription from our panel, The easiest way for me to explain this in this situation.
So we have 300+ customers in our DB who are paying customers, The OP submitted a cancellation request which as the customer did as immediate then it will terminate/cancel their service when the next cron job runs, Now for us to cancel their subscription we have to navigate to there service and click the cancel subscription for them, This is bad for us because imagine if we had to go through every cancellation request and look to see if they had a subscription and cancel it, Well this would mean a lot of time wasted when PayPal state that the buyer should keep track.
This issue with this is that we can't waste time doing this so have simply stopped offering subscriptions for now and are looking for a better solution that fits the clients needs as well as us and protects us both equally.
Again I completely agree with many of the comments that we should have monitored this as well as the customer but would like to point out that its almost impossible to do so when the cancellation request is run every night so we may not even see it before the cancellation takes place.
I have already said I was sorry that he didn't realize it was still active and regardless of this thread I would not keep someone's money if they don't have an active service.
I honestly think that this thread should now be called PayPal subscription discussion haha @bar Are you still around and can you confirm that you have received your refunds.
This cunt is an idiot and he made Ant leave, so can’t he just be banned.
@Bopie
I understand what you are saying. My only thought on the button is when a provider gets a customer that is shall we say extra needy and the provider is terminating the relationship it might prove prudent to make sure the button is pushed and the sub ended.
Also I see so many providers saying that it is absolutely impossible for them to end a sub.
Simple solution, stop subscription payments, they will soon learn when you suspend their service for 'forgetting' to pay on time each month.
That is generally what happens when you don't pay for something, either that or you get kicked out, or your car repossessed, lights turned off, etc......
https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/159348/the-spread-the-love-thread/p1
Vanilla is honestly a pile of garbage — I tried to merge many luv with the pit but Vanilla ended up merging the pit with the luv.
much sad, had to revert because I’d have to create a new cesspit if I wanted it to work
I blame society.
@Bopie WHMCS implemented the feature that will cancel the subscription automatically when the clients place the cancellation request. It's under (General Settings -> Invoices -> https://prnt.sc/oqsub0 ). But it will only cancel the subscription that the clients setup during the order, it will not cancel the subscription that they setup when they renew the service.
Paypal subscription is a headache for us too. Looking into the Billing agreement now but it seems only one: https://marketplace.whmcs.com/product/330
Anyone tried this module?
Yes I know however what I find is that most if not all users will try for a month then on renewal setup a reccuring payment... So we just stopped it all together after being burnt to many times now that PayPal charges us for refunds.
OP's responsibility to manage his own money. LET providers also have a low tolerance for having to deal with billing work because it's time consuming on a low markup product. What WHMCS can and can't do is often mentioned but never a good reason for anything.
Billing agreements are the way to go wrt recurring payment son Paypal, and the OP got his refund.
Moral, if you overpay, ask nicely for it back anyway and even admit 'it was your mistake' when asking.
But somehow on LET, not paying your bills on time and being suspended is unfair and makes a bad provider.
Drama aside what happened to deleted account? I can't find any legit reason for a provider to delete an account without specifically asked by the user.
If you read the whole thread iv already addressed this, His account was not deleted, His account was restricted when he opened the PP dispute, he claimed his account was deleted which is not true as I'm able to see it fine but he isn't.
Dont use it, i tried it in responce to peoples inability to be accountable for their own lives.
The net result was 5 customers with data loss in less than 2 months.
Because paypal only allows 1 subscription per company and WHMCS is shit at handling multiple products and 1 subscription that ONLY works if a customer only has 1 service EVER which is actually pretty uncommon.
So what happens is, customer has 2 or 3 services, has 1 subscription updated to cover them all, customer cancels 1 product, WHMCS module cancels whole subscription, 2 weeks after termination the customer opens a WTF ticket saying "WHY DID YOU CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION"
As a host, you literally cant win.
Don't take subscriptions - customers get pissed off that you wont allow subscriptions.
Take subscriptions - customers get pissed off that they have to be accountable for them and forget to cancel them
Use the auto cancel option in WHMCS - customers get pissed off when you loose their data because they assumed that final reminder did not apply to them as they have a subscription.
Use paypal pre authorization - customers get annoyed that you took money when they planned to cancel and you then have potentially weaponized your billing system against customers made by a company with a less than average security record.,
Its a nonsense, but it seems the path of least damage is to simply not to take subscriptions.
tl;dr millennials suck.