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Kazakhstan begins nationwide HTTPS MITM, requiring everyone to install root certificate.
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Kazakhstan begins nationwide HTTPS MITM, requiring everyone to install root certificate.

«13

Comments

  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    Very nice, how much?

    the Amitz.party lives on!

  • adxnadxn Member, Provider
    edited July 2019

    Sincerely,

    Shubhankar From Wuugly

  • Kazakhstan no longer produce superior potassium.

    Thanked by 2uptime Daniel15

    Purveyor of high quality potassium

  • Vova1234Vova1234 Member, Provider
    edited July 2019

    Each country introduces its virtual boundaries in the coming decades, it will be even more noticeable. This is only on hand salesmen servers hosters.

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  • uptimeuptime Member

    @Vova1234 said:
    This is only on hand salesmen servers.

    The meaning of that idiom eludes me.

    I am confuse.

    Be so kind as to enlighten for the cognitively impared? :)

    Thanked by 3Vova1234 chex taubin

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  • @Vova1234 said:
    Each country introduces its virtual boundaries in the coming decades, it will be even more noticeable. This is only on hand salesmen servers.

    Honestly, this kinda scares me a bit. I'd hate to see a time when the entire purpose of the internet as being beyond borders is ruined by governments that want to keep everyone in their backyard.

  • uptimeuptime Member

    @ehhthing said:
    Honestly, this kinda scares me a bit. I'd hate to see a time when the entire purpose of the internet as being beyond borders is ruined [...]

    Porn, uhmm ... finds a way.

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  • Vova1234Vova1234 Member, Provider
    edited July 2019

    uptime said:
    Be so kind as to enlighten for the cognitively impared?

    Google translator crookedly translated.

    Every ban on the Internet is a plus to sales. This plays into the hands of hosters. So that sites and services buy locations and more servers to be available.

    For example, the most popular service now is Windows servers through client restrictions. The same Iran. Fully Iranians buy servers in batches through resellers and pay directly through the perfectmoney and crypto.

    Honestly, this kinda scares me a bit. I'd hate to see a time when the entire purpose of the internet as being beyond borders is ruined by governments that want to keep everyone in their backyard.

    There's no such thing. Do what you want, that's what the CIS is.

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  • ehhthingehhthing Member
    edited July 2019

    @uptime said:

    @ehhthing said:
    Honestly, this kinda scares me a bit. I'd hate to see a time when the entire purpose of the internet as being beyond borders is ruined [...]

    Porn, uhmm ... finds a way.

    Always :wink:

    Thanked by 1uptime
  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Be so kind as to enlighten for the cognitively impared?

    Google translator crookedly translated.

    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    the Amitz.party lives on!

  • Vova1234Vova1234 Member, Provider
    edited July 2019

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

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  • Vova1234Vova1234 Member, Provider
    edited July 2019

    But this problem with HTTPS can be circumvented through a UDP proxy.

    Thanked by 1uptime

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  • uptimeuptime Member

    @Vova1234 said:
    [...]
    Do what you want, that's what the CIS is.

    Thanks for the explanation.

    One more question - do you mean CIS as in Computer Information Systems? Or (guessing perhaps more likely) "Commonwealth of Independent States (formerly the USSR)" which would include Kazakhstan?

    Thanked by 1Vova1234

    the Amitz.party lives on!

  • Vova1234Vova1234 Member, Provider
    edited July 2019

    Thanks for the explanation.

    Just to understand the mentality you have to live here.

    uptime said: "Commonwealth of Independent States (formerly the USSR)" which would include Kazakhstan?

    CIS - СНГ. All countries (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Armenia and etc). All countries of the former USSR are the same. Only minor differences are invisible. 80% of the CIS population speaks Russian, and the one who does not speak, understands well. The rest of this country clones.

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  • xaocxaoc Member

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Ну это уже дискриминация... 😂

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  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Translation (?) Can mothers have eggs? If grandma has eggs, then this is grandpa!

    @xaoc said:
    Ну это уже дискриминация... 😂

    Translation (?) Well, this is discrimination

    Aaaand ... now I'm on a list! ("Mostly harmless, possibly a useful idiot. Better to ignore.")

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  • xaocxaoc Member

    @uptime said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Translation (?) Can mothers have eggs? If grandma has eggs, then this is grandpa!

    @xaoc said:
    Ну это уже дискриминация... 😂

    Translation (?) Well, this is discrimination

    Aaaand ... now I'm on a list! ("Mostly harmless, possibly a useful idiot. Better to ignore.")

    Vova's part translates as testicles not eggs. :))

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    So Say We All

  • RedSoxRedSox Member

    @Vova1234 said:
    CIS - СНГ. All countries (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Armenia and etc). All countries of the former USSR are the same. Only minor differences are invisible. 80% of the CIS population speaks Russian, and the one who does not speak, understands well. The rest of this country clones.

    Ukraine withdrew representatives from all statutory bodies of CIS in 2018.

    Vova1234 said: Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Lol true.

    Thanked by 1uptime
  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    with respect to Kazakhstan, I am now reminded that the most excellent Sci-Hub project began there in 2011.

    the Amitz.party lives on!

  • Imagine 2019 without letsencrypt and Google mandating https for ranking.

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  • jsgjsg Member

    We have plenty of evidence that entities in/from USA, UK, and other western countries actually did f_ck, eavesdrop, and sell out people all over the planet - but hey, those are the "good countries", so let's just ignore the evidence and instead accuse Russia and everything even remotely "russian" even though there has rarely been real evidence.

    Plus "SSH and security"? Are you joking? I'd have a hard time finding any major software more or even just similarly rotten as SSL/TLS/SSH.

    Plus: pretty much every country (read: any country with any internet worth mentioning) can - and most actually do - have more or less obvious regulations that allow them to f_ck, intercept, eavesdrop, etc. on people; for the good of the people only, of course (e.g. "national security"). And if not, there is little but a bunch of politician between the people and more rigorous new regulations.

    So what some here seem to be shocked by actually is (a) hardly surprising, (b) hardly uncommon, and (c) hardly even close to what the "good" countries do since many years.

    I'm not worried about Kazakhstan beginning "nationwide https mitm" for more reasons than the fact that they can not possibly listen in on all communications (but almost certainly only on quite few). In other words: that whole thing is simply a country doing in "that modern internet thing" what they do since decades with "old world" tech already anyway.

    The real news here (as usually) is not "country X is eavesdropping on everyone!!!" but rather "the politicians in country X finally woke up and noticed that there is that modern "internet thing" which of course they want to be able to control".

    If you want to be afraid I suggest to be afraid of the series of major f_ckups of SSL/TLS/SSH, etc.

    Thanks no.

  • vimalwarevimalware Member
    edited July 2019

    If it makes ^anyone^ happy, I expect the BRIC bloc countries to embrace total surveillance as a tool of policy, in coming years.

    Doesn't mean I have to lie down and take it.

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  • jsgjsg Member
    edited July 2019

    @vimalware said:
    If it makes ^anyone^ happy, I expect the BRIC bloc countries to embrace total surveillance as a tool of policy, in coming years.

    Doesn't mean I have to lie down and take it.

    Show me a politician in any country who do not control whatever they can.

    I think it just looks particularly smelly this time because (a) in the old world there was no internet and hence information (e.g. about evil plans or actions of politicians) didn't spread wide, far and quickly as nowadays, and (b) because many of us tend to associate "internet" with "freedom" which of course we want to keep.

    Again, I think that what really happens in this and many other cases is a rather unrelated phenomenon: the politician are waking up and notice how little control they have in that new "world", the internet. So they do what they always do. They try to grab and control it - but unlike in the old times, nowadays their attempts don't go unnoticed.

    Btw, I notice again and again how like frozen in old times their thinking is. They simply try tp apply their usual procedures to the internet, often in a way and to a degree that really is comedy.

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  • tsofttsoft Member
    edited July 2019

    I was born in Kazakhstan.

    They wanna decrypt traffic and block links to the channels of opposition on YouTube.

    Currently, they just "slow down" the Internet in Kazakhstan during the opposition's live streams on YouTube and Telegram where they are calling for revolution in Kazakhstan, feels like you are on a dial-up modem from the 90s. They probably want to catch exact links to the youtube channels.

    They have jailed all oppositions inside the country. However, in 2019, people are making revolutions via YouTube. Lenin had to travel by train to Russia in 1917. He would be surprised, that your physical presence is no longer required in a hundred years.

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  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    @jsg said:
    They simply try tp apply their usual procedures to the internet, often in a way and to a degree that really is comedy.

    Yeah, that Internet Research Agency stuff is sooo 2016 ammirite?

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    the Amitz.party lives on!

  • @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

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  • xaocxaoc Member

    @tsoft said:
    I was born in Kazakhstan.

    They wanna decrypt traffic and block links to the channels of opposition on YouTube.

    Currently, they just "slow down" the Internet in Kazakhstan during the opposition's live streams on YouTube and Telegram where they are calling for revolution in Kazakhstan, feels like you are on a dial-up modem from the 90s. They probably want to catch exact links to the youtube channels.

    They have jailed all oppositions inside the country. However, in 2019, people are making revolutions via YouTube. Lenin had to travel by train to Russia in 1917. He would be surprised, that your physical presence is no longer required in a hundred years.

    Ye most westerners don't realize what is actually going on in these post soviet countries but they feel like they do and comment on the matter anyways. I do agree with @jsg that most of the world is fraked up by politicians but at least in the west you don't get jailed and tortured for speaking up against the regime with a bullshit charge like raping a 30 yo "underage" woman(real case in Moldova).

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  • xaocxaoc Member

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    New trend:
    Has it's funny moments tho there's a lot of swearing going on.

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  • ehhthingehhthing Member
    edited July 2019

    @jsg My main concern with this is that HTTPS MITM has never been done on a nationwide scale like this before. Mainly because MITM prevents apps that certificate pin from functioning. No government (save North Korea), has ever gone so far to spy on citizen communication, not even China. Now that Kazakhstan has started doing this, other countries may look at them and take them as an example.

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  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Moderator

    jsg said: We have plenty of evidence that entities in/from USA, UK, and other western countries actually did f_ck, eavesdrop, and sell out people all over the planet - but hey, those are the "good countries", so let's just ignore the evidence and instead accuse Russia and everything even remotely "russian" even though there has rarely been real evidence.

    The problem is that you're going to get evidence far, far easier in Western countries because the media is open. Not a whole lot of journalism criticizing government programs in, say, China.

    Russia, China, etc. are not even remotely in the same league in terms of civil liberties and freedom compared to the US, Canada, Japan, Western Europe, etc. Not saying Western democracies are perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I know where I'd rather live.

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  • Shot2Shot2 Member

    @uptime said:
    with respect to Kazakhstan, I am now reminded that the most excellent Sci-Hub project began there in 2011.

    Most useful contribution by Kazakhstan to humankind.

    That, and urani^h^h^h potassium.

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  • Poor man's NSA - less powerful computers and experts, but trying to do the same thing the USA has been and is doing.

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    Mostly harmless™

    I/O Gremlin

  • Are there any VPS in Kazakhstan?

  • jsgjsg Member

    @ehhthing said:
    @jsg My main concern with this is that HTTPS MITM has never been done on a nationwide scale like this before. Mainly because MITM prevents apps that certificate pin from functioning. No government (save North Korea), has ever gone so far to spy on citizen communication, not even China. Now that Kazakhstan has started doing this, other countries may look at them and take them as an example.

    Is it really a countrywide MITM? Frankly, some american media reporting something about "Russia" (or one if its neighbours) IMO is about as trustworthy as a Kreml gazette reporting about something evil in the USA - read: not at all.

    ZDnet said:
    (right in its sub title): "Kazakh government first wanted to intercept all HTTPS traffic way back in 2016, but they backed off after several lawsuits."

    After subtracting the implied evil intention a simple fact remains: The Kazhak government could be - and was - stopped by lawsuites, which seems to indicate that they respect their courts. Not too bad for an "evil country", no?
    Now however they seem to have changed the laws and can finally do it. Uhm, what exactly is the news? The fact that (yet another) country (or more precisely their politicians) found a way to control communications? Sorry but that's no surprise, that happens in many countries.

    In fact, that might indicate that at least they do play their games openly while many western politicians blabla nicely and then act dirty behind the curtain.

    Next question: Can they really do arbitrary MITM? I don't think so. Fact is (one just needs to look closely and carefully) that they forced a root cert upon their citizens. That may feel like a MITM but it is not because the people know about it.
    Next question: Can they eavesdrop on all communication or even just at say 50%? Answer? Next to certain -> No. Simple reason: they don't have a multi billion $ NSA with tons and tons of equipment and people.

    Let me come back to the courts. This is well noted just an assumption but it seems to be reasonable: In 2016 they were stopped by courts. Therefore it seems reasonable to assume that if they now do something really evil their supreme court would have stopped it-

    In the end, again, I'm certainly not enchanted by any governmental eavesdropping, but the (maybe sad) fact is that most countries do that in one way or another, so my impression is that when Russia or similar countries do it, we just hear a lot more noise about it.

    @raindog308 said:
    The problem is that you're going to get evidence far, far easier in Western countries because the media is open. Not a whole lot of journalism criticizing government programs in, say, China.

    Russia, China, etc. are not even remotely in the same league in terms of civil liberties and freedom compared to the US, Canada, Japan, Western Europe, etc. Not saying Western democracies are perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I know where I'd rather live.

    I hope that you are right, seriously. I'm not so sure though. Just one example: in quite some european countries when a migrant rapes a woman and her family says that there should be way less migrants let into their country, then they, the victims are the "evil racists". Or look at the USA where almost all major media are obsessively against their president; sometimes I'm under the impression that that man could rain gold coins on the people and the media would find some point to nitpick and to attack him (disclaimer: I don't care about pro or anti Trump. I merely say what I observe).

    That is not to say that Russia or Kazhakstan are a paradise, but I think that we would be well advised to challenge and seriously inspect our "we are superior" beliefs. From what I see the major difference is not this or that country vs. another country but normal people vs. politicians.

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  • jsgjsg Member

    @buzzyLET said:
    Are there any VPS in Kazakhstan?

    Wrong question.

    Correct question: Is there any (communication) software that either is not based on SSL/TLS or doesn't require (or check) certificates? One (of quite some more) answer: libsodium and/or 25519 based crypto.

    Thanks no.

  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited July 2019

    jsg said: they can not possibly listen in on all communications

    Sorry, not true. There is hardware that is used that will actually capture, store and analyze every packet on a network. This would include hardware such as that designed by Niksun which is similar to the technology used by the government that has already been found in several large US datacenters, most specifically they have been shown in a few AT&T datacenter locations.

    For a small country like Kazakhstan I don't find it very difficult to believe they could track everyone in the country, especially since they probably fully control all ingress and egress traffic to/from the country. They are likely able to watch and track most of their people, or at least be able to pull information up about specific IPs as needed.

    I am not saying they get EVERY SINGLE packet, but with platforms like this having existed now for more than 20 years and being commercially available (to people with money), I wouldn't be surprised if they are to the point where they do actually capture most, if not all, the traffic of their people and this is just a fancy new function of that appliance (MITM).

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

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  • jsgjsg Member

    @TheLinuxBug

    Please note that I didn't say "collect" but "listen". Collecting can be done by machines, listening not or only to a very limited degree.

    Also: How many countries actually have the storage capacity to store every form of communication (via TCP/IP) for any not insignificant period of time? The only one I know of is the USA (which is known to have enough money to throw at anything they want).

    Also, again: They force fed a root cert to their citizens, which means that they are quite limited (mainly https) in what they can eavesdrop on.

    My guess: they

    • want to be capable to listen in in a very limited number of cases, typically cases where their "FBI" or counter intelligence have solid suspicion.
    • are afraid about other states doing psyops to influence their citizens.
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  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited July 2019

    jsg said: Please note that I didn't say "collect" but "listen". Collecting can be done by machines, listening not or only to a very limited degree.

    I think the confusion here is, though, that the machine does all the analyzing for you. There isn't any listening needed. Simply all you do is put the IP your checking into the system and it builds a report on all the traffic it has seen for that user. Though I haven't seen and used their hardware for maybe 10 years now, I can say my last opportunity to check out these systems (Niksun), even 10 years ago, would lead me to believe with current technology that exists storing such metadata would not be as difficult / storage strained as you would expect. I assume it also wouldn't be very difficult to train the machine to look for specific patterns and notify you about them either.

    So, I will stipulate that I am sure no HUMAN actually has the ability to process / listen to all the traffic, but with the use of the tools and algorithms designed for the platform, it probably does not take much to build a report for any single IP or have it alert on some type of pattern.

    My guess is with SSL they can't as deeply inspect things as they want. However, once this MITM cert is in place, then any of those appliances can easily start parsing what would previously had been encrypted and not made it into the metadata. This means they can have it trigger on key words, searches, phrases, etc and notify them.

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

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  • If you use mobile phone and pay with credit card - perhaps a social network or two on top - more than enough meta-data.

    The only difference ("problem"?) I see here is that someone else from US NSA could have access. The "evil ones", not "the good ones". :)

    Mostly harmless™

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  • @jsg said:
    @TheLinuxBug

    Please note that I didn't say "collect" but "listen". Collecting can be done by machines, listening not or only to a very limited degree.

    Also: How many countries actually have the storage capacity to store every form of communication (via TCP/IP) for any not insignificant period of time? The only one I know of is the USA (which is known to have enough money to throw at anything they want).

    Also, again: They force fed a root cert to their citizens, which means that they are quite limited (mainly https) in what they can eavesdrop on.

    My guess: they

    • want to be capable to listen in in a very limited number of cases, typically cases where their "FBI" or counter intelligence have solid suspicion.
    • are afraid about other states doing psyops to influence their citizens.

    And here we go, psyops. The end is nigh.

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  • Vova1234Vova1234 Member, Provider
    edited July 2019

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

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  • rm_rm_ Member
    edited July 2019

    @Shot2 said:

    @uptime said:
    with respect to Kazakhstan, I am now reminded that the most excellent Sci-Hub project began there in 2011.

    Most useful contribution by Kazakhstan to humankind.

    It seems this is a personal project of someone who just by chance happened to be born and live there. Do not attribute to the state everything done by people who live inside its borders. Especially to a state like this.

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  • Vova1234Vova1234 Member, Provider

    @rm_ said:

    @Shot2 said:

    @uptime said:
    with respect to Kazakhstan, I am now reminded that the most excellent Sci-Hub project began there in 2011.

    Most useful contribution by Kazakhstan to humankind.

    It seems this is a personal project of someone who just by chance happened to be born and live there. Do not attribute to the state everything done by people who live inside its borders. Especially to a state like this.

    Simple people do not encounter the state. You yourself know everything and everywhere here.

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  • Shot2Shot2 Member

    @rm_ said:
    It seems this is a personal project of someone who just by chance happened to be born and live there. Do not attribute to the state everything done by people who live inside its borders. Especially to a state like this.

    Wait, what, U mean Aaron Swartz was not Kazakhstani??? I am disappoint.

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  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited July 2019

    @rm_ said:
    Do not attribute to the state everything done by people who live inside its borders.

    And vice versa, I suppose.

    The state of Confusion transcends all borders.

    the Amitz.party lives on!

  • omelasomelas Member

    Can Kazakhstan ISPs afford this MITM thing without bankrupt themselves? It will need enormous amount of CPU power to do decrypt and reencrypt all internet traffic they see.

  • xaocxaoc Member

    @Vova1234 said:

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

    That's an insult to all the member states of the USSR and everyone else that engaged Japan/Italy/Germany in WW2. Plus i wouldn't call losing most of USSR's youth just to protect one man a win. :)

    So Say We All

  • bikegremlinbikegremlin Member
    edited July 2019

    @xaoc said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

    That's an insult to all the member states of the USSR and everyone else that engaged Japan/Italy/Germany in WW2. Plus i wouldn't call losing most of USSR's youth just to protect one man a win. :)

    Nazi plan was to eliminate Jews, Gypsies and Slavs (among others), as impure / inferior races. So it was not about saving just one man. They wouldn't have just stopped if no one opposed them - quite the contrary.

    And it was a victory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Slavic_sentiment

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  • xaocxaoc Member

    @bikegremlin said:

    @xaoc said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    @LTniger said:

    @Vova1234 said:

    uptime said:
    Пердит мама ходит на тонких яйцах!

    Fartmother walks on thin eggs!

    Разве у мамы могут быть яйца? Если у бабушки есть яйца, то это дедушка!

    Tagyyyl, rulit i razrulivaet! Nice to see slavs on let :)

    There are many of them on LET. Russia as a bear. The main thing is not to touch it.

    It would not have been funny but he won the Second World War.

    That's an insult to all the member states of the USSR and everyone else that engaged Japan/Italy/Germany in WW2. Plus i wouldn't call losing most of USSR's youth just to protect one man a win. :)

    Nazi plan was to eliminate Jews, Gypsies and Slavs (among others), as impure / inferior races. So it was not about saving just one man. They wouldn't have just stopped if no one opposed them - quite the contrary.

    And it was a victory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Slavic_sentiment

    Most of the aggresors had a plan of their own during WW2, USSR being part of that group. As for the one man part, retreat was an option seeing as to how they got caught with their pants down, but no, that ego of his could not stand the fact that he failed so countless had to die just to protect some stone walls and one man. There were no victors in WW2, everyone lost and all that loss of life just because 4 "inhumans" decided to change some lines on a piece of paper(map)...

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  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Moderator

    bikegremlin said: Nazi plan was to eliminate Jews, Gypsies and Slavs (among others), as impure / inferior races. So it was not about saving just one man. They wouldn't have just stopped if no one opposed them - quite the contrary.

    Absolutely correct. The Nazis would have eliminated all Slavs and restocked the land with ethnic Germans.

    Just protesting, objecting, or "civil disobedience" would have delighted the Nazis...they were interested in eliminating the Slavs to a man and taking their land. Very different than your typical border dispute type of war where you have rational state actors operating with diplomatic boundaries.

    jsg said: want to be capable to listen in in a very limited number of cases, typically cases where their "FBI" or counter intelligence have solid suspicion.

    Speaking of Nazis, here's something to ponder...during the Nazi era, the Gestapo could not keep up with the flood of average citizens snitching on each other. Same thing thing was true in East Germany. They had far more leads than they could follow up on, so other than top-down directives ("eliminate this political opponent" etc.), a lot of bottom-up work was simply correlating whose names showed up the most.

    So perhaps the problem is not so much straining the vast ocean of telecommunications input but rather prioritizing targets and then using in-place capability to, er, investigate.

    The Nazis were doing it in a paper-and-pen era...even if Kazak technology is not cutting edge, it's still orders of magnitude more capable. Wikipedia says Kazakstan has about 18m people...that's not many from a tenge-per-citizen perspective (apparently, the tenge is the Kazak currency...I didn't know that either until I looked it up :-)

    Also, wondering how the cloud could impact all this. Nothing preventing the Kazaks from buying cloud capacity, either directly or under front companies. That makes it less of a "we need to build out our own infrastructure" issue and more of a simple "how much foreign currency do we have on hand" question.

    And of course, once you know you're being spied on, you assume everything you say is being recorded, which is its own form of repression.

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