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Thoughts about really cheap but really good backup
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Thoughts about really cheap but really good backup

jsgjsg Member

A current topic in the Cest Pit reminded me to do some calculations. It's about a quite attractive storage server offer from ServDiscount that comes with 4 x 6 TB disks plus a small SSD (for the OS, etc.).

Now, front-up, if you happen to host Terabytes of say movies or porn or whatever that needs to be online then this post isn't for you, sorry, you'll just need to continue paying for large storage/backup (or run a high risk operation).

Many of us, though (actually most I guess) just run small to mid size web sites, mail servers, etc. that is, servers needing a couple of 10 or at most a couple of 100 GB in terms of space. My most busy web server for example, a mid size quite busy community, runs on a VPS with 4 cores, 4 GB memory and a 100 GB SSD. When I say that my community is quite busy I mean that there are some tens of MB of new content (real content not images) per day. Wait! "some ten MBs per day?"? That's peanuts!

Yes, that's peanuts but also what probably 80+% of VPS admins actually have. Now, assume that I had ten of those communities; then I'd be in the "couple of 100s MB per day", still a very easily managable amount of data to backup.
Yet I, like many others, had GBs/day in backup data due to bad planning and managing and I once had a 400 GB storage/backup server overflowing.

So, point #1 is: Do not simply backup everything, not even everything "changed" in the eyes of a non smart backup utility. Get some understanding and have a smart plan of what really needs to be backed up (and how frequently). Mysqldump and the like are your friends ...

Next point: Yes that fat storage server I mentioned above is a dangerously attractive offer, no doubts. But there's an ugly "but". It (like virtually all cheap storage servers) comes with 2nd hand or used before hard drives. Plus, usually those drives haven't been chosen for quality but for price. "No problem" I hear you say "I'm putting them in a Raid 1/5/6/Z anyway". Well, yes and no. "I run a Raid6 set" is quite OK when at the very minimum the disks are new or well known since "birth"; preferably I'd like to have and know a good Raid controller too, plus I'd like to have its sibling waiting as a replacement in my stock. Then, yes, it's indeed reasonable to sleep well and to think that the chances of 2 (or 3 with the higher end Raid schemes) drives failing at the same point in time is very, very low.
If however your drives are 2nd hand and you know nothing about them (like how have they been used?) and your machines Raid controller is called, well "Raid controller" (as opposed to brand/model/fw) then chances of multiple disks failing - or a staggered fail - are not at all that low.

Plus, keep that in mind as it's an important point that may turn against you, we are talking about dedicated servers here. Let me translate that clearly: It's - at least mainly - your problem if everything works fine (after the initial phase, say a week or so). Sure, you have a right to get a drive replacement if a drive fails but that's still just another lottery in terms of what (and how quickly) you get for a replacement. With a VPS it's the providers problem, not yours.

Plus: Raid recovery can take a loooong time. Well noted, those hours (or days) are very sensitive because if another drive fails during recovery things quickly get seriously ugly. To make it a bit funnier, guess what's about the most stressful time in a disks life? Right, during recovery, which means that the risk of another drive failing during recovery is not average; it's particularly high.
And no, I'm not exaggerating. Just a while ago a good and reputable provider lost all data of all VMs on a complete node due to disk and/or Raid controller problems. And those guys really know their job, but still they couldn't recover the data.

Unfortunately, the alternative is to either rent a very expensive server with expressly new disks, preferably with a very reputable provider or to buy such a server yourself and to colocate it.

Which brings me back to the beginning. Do we really need to play that ugly game?

I'm playing with (and have begun actually testing) an alternative many might first laugh at. I am providing backup. As in "at home/in my office". Hear me out.

A 2 TB disk, brand spanking new and good quality costs about 100 $/€. At this point another (maybe) shrewdness of mine enters the game. I hate wasting energy. So I use a <= 10W Alix based box, which happens to have an M2 slot (so I have put a nice 120 GB SSD on the board), even a SATA slot (which I ignore) and a USB 3 slot - which pretty much shouted "use me!". Next to it I have a dual external disks enclosure connected via USB 3 so the OS on the Alix router box sees two 2TB drives and happily Raids them as a R1 set.

Let's calculate: The drives plus the enclosure cost me about 200€ all together. The alix router isn't counted because I had it anyway. And btw it has 4 AMD (low power) cores and plenty RAM (4 GB) so the additional load is pretty insignificant. Calculated over just 1 year the cost is about 17€/mo. Not at all bad, being in the price range of a comparable 2 core Atom dedi with 1 or 2 TB disks. Considering a life time of a ridiculously low 3 years the costs are about 5.5€/mo. Try to beat that! And for that peanuts money I have new and good quality (in my case Toshiba) drives and full control of the machine!

Now comes the potential bottleneck, traffic. I have a (quite average I guess) DSL with 50 (or 100? don't know, don't care) down and 5 (or 10?) upstream. And my provider, like most based on what I hear, doesn't get icky as long as my volume doesn't go far beyond 250 or 300 GB/month. Let's say I allocate 60 GB of that to my backup solution. That translates to about 2 GB/day - which is far more than I - and I guess many if not most of us - actually need if we plan our backup properly.

Last but not least I have to mention a trick, a bit of "cheating", and an additional big plus. First the trick/cheating.
Downloading the backup isn't the problem. But uploading it if it is needed gets bloody slow with just 5 or 10 Mb/s. So I devised a concept where I split the data into "luke warm" and larger data and "hot" smaller sets. Meaning: "hot" is only what changes frequently (mainly DB) and "luke warm" is what changes rarely (e.g. packages) but tends to be bigger. (For the sake of completeness: "cold" is what is not specific to me and can be easily downloaded elsewhere (like the OS). Both luke warm and hot data gets backed up to an intermediate VPS (at a good provider) with some 200+GB disks (known to be raided) which also serves as a single point (for ease of working) of backups for all my VPSs. From there hot data gets downloaded to my home storage server (the Alix box) every day (in my case a couple of 10 MB) and luke warm data gets downloaded once a week and only the most current set is kept on the VPS.
Additional advantage: always two current backup sets and at different locations/regions.

The additional big plus is that I can long term store some data on blueray, i.e. on an optical medium. In my case that's one single blueray every month. Ultra cheap, really long term and solid and using next to no storage room (physically, i.e. a plastic box with all the BR disks).
Side note: Data of critical importance (mainly company stuff) get written to M-Discs (more expensive than BR but insanely long life and safe).
Oh, and of course that Alix box also serves as local storage/backup for my computers. Seriously important and "holy" stuff like my development work or tax relevant stuff first gets pumped to the SSD and then the Alix writes it out to the Raid set, offering painless speed to me plus Raided backup.

Final remark: All involved boxes, real or virtual, are dual purpose. The Alix box evidently has a main life as router/firewall. And the "intermediate storage server" is used as a normal server (web) just with bigger disk. The backups are timed to be done during the quiet hours. So besides the one time expense for the 2 hard drives (and the enclosure) and maybe 3€/mo for having one good quality VPS with bigger disks there are no extra costs in either money or time.

Oh and: Thank you so much, CloudF#&!% for pestering me about every 10 seconds with your "I'm not a robot" yester-decade security theater BS, making it hard and cumbersome to share knowledge and ideas!
In case someone happens to have a bomb he doesn't need and lives near CF, please kindly drop it at their HQ to rid mankind of that tumor for good.

Thanks no.

Comments

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Darn you, kitten murderer.

    Thanked by 5uptime level6 imok pike ehab

    I have not created a single thread. Verify it if you dare.

  • jsgjsg Member

    P.S. After passing the braindead and obtrusive "I'm not a robot" pestering CloudF#&!% rewarded me with a non HTML page that was totally worthless.
    Great work, CloudF#&!% , stupid, clueless, breaking standards, but obtrusive. That's what you really have on offer.

    Thanks no.

  • Senior Level 30 Microsoft Certified Technician

  • jsgjsg Member

    @deank said:
    Darn you, kitten murderer.

    I beg to differ! I don't kill them for the fun of it but to cook or fry them.

    Thanks no.

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited May 2019

    @dedotatedwam said:
    (choose 2 out fo 3 image)

    So? Obviously my approach is a "good and cheap" choice albeit with quite acceptable speed. Plus some quite attractive extras (low energy, double backup sets in different locations, ...)

    Thanks no.

  • Wise thoughts.

    I think that speed doesn't matter much. If you need to restore your backups, what you'll need is to be able to do so. Sure, restoring quickly is always better, but not being able to restore is the potential real problem.

    I like your solution because you have full control over the hardware, and can easily do copies of your data on optical drives + you don't fund yet another datacenter.

    Thanked by 1jsg

    don't buy what you don't need: you'll save money and will end up able to grab a quality VPS when really needed.

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited May 2019

    @datanoise said:
    Wise thoughts.

    I think that speed doesn't matter much. If you need to restore your backups, what you'll need is to be able to do so. Sure, restoring quickly is always better, but not being able to restore is the potential real problem.

    I like your solution because you have full control over the hardware, and can easily do copies of your data on optical drives + you don't fund yet another datacenter.

    Thank you. Another point not yet mentioned is the relativity of time: compared to a large Raid array recovery uploading a backup with say 5 Mb/s is not a problem.

    But to be honest one of the points that got me thinking was the cumbersome 1Fichier interface. I had arrived at a point where I seriously looked at cheap storage servers (dedi or VPS) and my main concern wasn't even price; it was reliability which I guess isn't really worth mentioning considering what kind of hardware usually ends up in the "specials" or low price corner.

    Once I had that Alix box and saw its power and attractive "side" features I almost immediately turned it into a local storage backup. And I enjoyed it immensely; thanks to the SSD/NVMe many thing that were a PITA before suddenly were painfree, even enjoyable.

    The final point was the moment when it stroke me "isn't that pretty much what I would wish for in a web/server storage/backup too? And space is cheap". Obviously the low speed of home or office DSL seemed to be a critical bottleneck ... seemed, because (a) normally restoring from the storage VPS (which is fast), (b) my local storage was only a secondary fall back, and (c) actually DSL is pretty fast nowadays. 5 or 10 Mb/s isn't fast but then it's neither prohibitivly slow. Being able to pump 1.8 GB/hour means that, if needed, I could pump 15 or 20 GB restore during a night, which is damn good enough for the hot and luke warm data of I guess 90+% of web or email servers.

    Finally I really, really, liked to be able to create non-magnetic backup media and I use optical storage anyway professionally (retention rules in Europe are quite tough). That factor alone, to have important server data backed up on an optical long life medium was worth the whole effort.

    And it comes basically pretty much for free if you have a company office because adding the internet servers poretty much boils down to adding disk space, say 10 TB instead of 6 TB.
    I should also mention that I'm strongly driven by a sense of realism. We could of course have, say a 50 Mb symmetric line but looking closely I do not want that. It's just not worth it. Being capable to restore 15 - 20 GB during a night is simply good enough.

    Thanked by 1datanoise

    Thanks no.

  • donlidonli Member

    @jsg said:

    @deank said:
    Darn you, kitten murderer.

    I beg to differ! I don't kill them for the fun of it but to cook or fry them.

    As long as you don't bake them...

    Thanked by 2pike Janevski
  • Peanut oil or Sesame?

  • In an age where society is driven towards increasingly shorter messages/videos/communication, I gave the OP a 'thanks' just for actually taking the time to express a thought in such detail.

    Having said that, and recognizing that I myself belong to the same above-mentioned concentration-lacking society, I did not read the post but instead made a mental "read-it-later" note :smiley:

    Thanked by 3jsg uptime vimalware

    You can send your dogecoin "thanks" to: DNhnwKWR5vm8ddbWPpWfrpGR8atXH5ZFeP

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    For really cheap and really good backups, it's really hard to ignore Amazon Drive and Google Drive since they have more redundancy than you could affordably engineer yourself, more bandwidth than most home connections can handle, and if you couple one (or both) of them with a cheap $150 NAS (~10W of power) you can encrypt your data before transferring it which gives you a local and off-site backup along with the added privacy for people who don't trust Google or Amazon.

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need backup space? Check out BackupDragon
  • I appreciate the effort, but Jesus Christ that post is confusing. I feel like it could be summed up in 1-2 paragraphs.

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  • sanvitsanvit Member

    I mean, sure, but why not just ACD or GD as @KuJoe mentioned, or just Backblaze B2? Just get a cheap VPS and use it as a gateway to encrypt, etc. and you'll have much better redundancy and speed for a reasonable ($5/TB @ACD, $10/2TB @GD, $5/TB @B2) price.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Provider

    @hostnoob said:
    I appreciate the effort, but Jesus Christ that post is confusing. I feel like it could be summed up in 1-2 paragraphs.

    Welcome to a @jsg thread.

    They wrote a damn bible about it.

    Francisco

    BuyVM - Free DirectAdmin, Softaculous, & Blesta! / Anycast Support! / Windows 2008, 2012, & 2016! / Unmetered Bandwidth!
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  • jsgjsg Member

    @KuJoe said:
    For really cheap and really good backups, it's really hard to ignore Amazon Drive and Google Drive since they have more redundancy than you could affordably engineer yourself, more bandwidth than most home connections can handle, and if you couple one (or both) of them with a cheap $150 NAS (~10W of power) you can encrypt your data before transferring it which gives you a local and off-site backup along with the added privacy for people who don't trust Google or Amazon.

    @sanvit said:
    I mean, sure, but why not just ACD or GD as @KuJoe mentioned, or just Backblaze B2? Just get a cheap VPS and use it as a gateway to encrypt, etc. and you'll have much better redundancy and speed for a reasonable ($5/TB @ACD, $10/2TB @GD, $5/TB @B2) price.

    I can encrypt anyway, that's not a relevant argument. "better redundancy"? How that? I have a (the most current) backup on a good VPS and I have a backup in my office, which is two different locations/regions.

    And yes, there are good services out there. But it's not me in control but them. Plus, for me that's important, for you maybe not: they don't offer a 3rd level backup on an optical and mobile (as in e.g. put in a vault) medium.

    I guess there's a good reason for different approaches and solutions. And I guess that mine is a good one for quite some use cases. For others going with a large corp. service is the right one.

    Thanked by 1uptime

    Thanks no.

  • jsgjsg Member

    @hostnoob said:
    I appreciate the effort, but Jesus Christ that post is confusing. I feel like it could be summed up in 1-2 paragraphs.

    Keeping things short is one desirable property. Making them easily understandable is another one. Allowing others to follow the complete thought process and all factors and maybe to pick what they like or to find some interesting thought is yet another one.

    @Francisco said:

    @hostnoob said:
    I appreciate the effort, but Jesus Christ that post is confusing. I feel like it could be summed up in 1-2 paragraphs.

    Welcome to a @jsg thread.

    They wrote a damn bible about it.

    Feel free to simply ignore my threads. But then, it's hard to resist the temptation to paint oneself "superior"... No problem, if it makes you feel better be my guest.

    Thanks no.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Provider

    jsg said: Feel free to simply ignore my threads. But then, it's hard to resist the temptation to paint oneself "superior"... No problem, if it makes you feel better be my guest.

    Not at all, you usually have some pretty interesting points :) It's just that many of them are huge.

    Francisco

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  • sanvitsanvit Member

    @jsg said:

    @KuJoe said:
    For really cheap and really good backups, it's really hard to ignore Amazon Drive and Google Drive since they have more redundancy than you could affordably engineer yourself, more bandwidth than most home connections can handle, and if you couple one (or both) of them with a cheap $150 NAS (~10W of power) you can encrypt your data before transferring it which gives you a local and off-site backup along with the added privacy for people who don't trust Google or Amazon.

    @sanvit said:
    I mean, sure, but why not just ACD or GD as @KuJoe mentioned, or just Backblaze B2? Just get a cheap VPS and use it as a gateway to encrypt, etc. and you'll have much better redundancy and speed for a reasonable ($5/TB @ACD, $10/2TB @GD, $5/TB @B2) price.

    I can encrypt anyway, that's not a relevant argument. "better redundancy"? How that? I have a (the most current) backup on a good VPS and I have a backup in my office, which is two different locations/regions.

    And yes, there are good services out there. But it's not me in control but them. Plus, for me that's important, for you maybe not: they don't offer a 3rd level backup on an optical and mobile (as in e.g. put in a vault) medium.

    I guess there's a good reason for different approaches and solutions. And I guess that mine is a good one for quite some use cases. For others going with a large corp. service is the right one.

    Not sure about ACD (but should be similar to others assuming they are using AWS), Google and B2 both claims they have multiple copys of your data accross multiple physical locations, which should be at least same or more numbers of replications than your 2x model. And bty optical and mobile medium, do you mean BluRays or DVDs? If so, you could always manually copy from your cloud storage. I do understand however that having a local copy of your backup is great (I do have one too), and some people would prefer having that instead of having your data stored and controlled by a 3rd party. I was just saying there are other options as well for backups.

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited May 2019

    @Francisco said:

    jsg said: Feel free to simply ignore my threads. But then, it's hard to resist the temptation to paint oneself "superior"... No problem, if it makes you feel better be my guest.

    Not at all, you usually have some pretty interesting points :) It's just that many of them are huge.

    Thanks for the compliment. Yes, maybe I'm a good techie but a lousy writer. I've learned to live with the fact of being very far from perfection. If I feel pity for someone though it's not me but my wife *g

    @sanvit said:
    Not sure about ACD (but should be similar to others assuming they are using AWS), Google and B2 both claims they have multiple copys of your data accross multiple physical locations, which should be at least same or more numbers of replications than your 2x model. ...

    For me redundancy is more demanding than some large corp using whatever scheme (like distributed file systems) somehow claiming to have multiple copies. Let me show my point like this: Running ones own DNS can be a PITA but nevertheless and no matter how seductive it might look, I don't use one DNS provider. I don't doubt that a corporation like CF or Google has a gazillion times more resources than me but for me having all my eggs in one basket is not redundancy. And, to just pick the most recent case, even Microsoft can have their services unreachable. Hence, thanks no.

    I want some control and I want real tangible redundancy.

    And it pays off. If one of my DNS VPS goes down, I have a couple more at different places, data centers, regions, providers. Similarly, if my storage VPS goes offline I have a completely independent layer in another region.And if my house burns down I have at least the important data somewhere else on a BR or, if it's critical data on M-Disc.

    But again, that's me (and probably many others). For others my approach isn't the right one and they might be happier with some service (like the ones @KuJoe and you mentioned).

    Keep in mind though that we are at LET, and that many here look for the sweet spot with "low cost" being a major factor. I might be totally wrong but I thought that my approach might be an attractive one to consider in the low end, private, SME segment. Also keep in mind that the "competition" next to which I present my approach is the cheap storage dedis, many of which are used as backup servers.

    Thanked by 2sanvit uptime

    Thanks no.

  • Reducing word volume by 30-40%, and throwing in a diagram or asciiart diagram in between, would make it more likely that one finishes reading the tutorial.

    Thank you nevertheless

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  • uptimeuptime Member
    edited May 2019

    Thanks @jsg for sticking your neck out a bit to kick off what is sure to be an entertaining thread.

    Also, for taking the time to post something vaguely resembling a "tutorial" (?)

    ... what it may lack in conciseness, it makes up for in obtuseness!

    And yes, there are good services out there. But it's not me in control but them. Plus, for me that's important, for you maybe not: they don't offer a 3rd level backup on an optical and mobile (as in e.g. put in a vault) medium.

    I guess there's a good reason for different approaches and solutions. And I guess that mine is a good one for quite some use cases. For others going with a large corp. service is the right one.

    Would tend to agree that the less I have to do with Google et al the better I feel about my online experience.

    And that would certainly apply to my offline backups as well.

    EDIT2: I'll just leave this here ...

    @BlaisePascal said:
    My Letters were not wont to come so close one in the neck of another, nor yet to be so large. The short time I have had hath been the cause of both. I had not made this longer then the rest, but that I had not the leisure to make it shorter than it is.

    @JohnLocke said:
    I will not deny, but possibly it might be reduced to a narrower Compass than it is; and that some Parts of it might be contracted: The way it has been writ in, by Catches, and many long Intervals of Interruption, being apt to cause some Repetitions. But to confess the Truth, I am now too lazy, or too busy to make it shorter.

    @LordPolonius said:
    This business is well ended.
    My liege, and madam, to expostulate
    What majesty should be, what duty is,
    Why day is day, night night, and time is time,
    Were nothing but to waste night, day and time.
    Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
    And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
    I will be brief: your noble son is mad:
    Mad call I it; for, to define true madness,
    What is't but to be nothing else but mad?
    But let that go.

    @HenryThoreau said:
    Not that the story need be long, but it will take a long while to make it short.

    @WoodrowWilson said:
    If it is a ten-minute speech it takes me all of two weeks to prepare it; if it is a half-hour speech it takes me a week; if I can talk as long as I want to it requires no preparation at all. I am ready now.

    (credits: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/28/shorter-letter/)

    'nuff said. :)

    the Amitz.party lives on!

  • jsgjsg Member
    edited May 2019

    To show some good will ...

    Use box, disks, Raid.

    And here's a diagram

    Everyone happy now I hope.

    Thanked by 2uptime Milon

    Thanks no.

  • SirFoxySirFoxy Member

    @Francisco said:

    jsg said: Feel free to simply ignore my threads. But then, it's hard to resist the temptation to paint oneself "superior"... No problem, if it makes you feel better be my guest.

    Not at all, you usually have some pretty interesting points :) It's just that many of them are huge.

    Francisco

    Like, really huge loooolololol1010101lol.

    Thanked by 1Francisco

    lurking in the shadows like a wombat or some shit

  • I am unsure if @jsg is considering this as a paid backup service for peanuts but, unfortunately, the only way to properly gauge the validity of this as a business idea is to build it and see how many customers you get.

    My opinion is that the majority of individuals who would really appreciate this idea (of essentially self-hosting and managing their own backup solution) are also likely the ones who wouldn't mind to build it out themselves (as opposed to hosting it with someone else).

    For the rest of us, using cloud/backup service providers in some form (i.e. encrypted vs unencrypted backups), or simply renting an additional storage dedi or two, will suffice.

    With regards to supporting the smaller players, I thought back to @m4nu and his BorgBase project. Thread can be found here.

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  • uptimeuptime Member

    lololol ... needs moar potassium!

    @jsg said:
    To show some good will ...

    Use box, disks, Raid.

    And here's a diagram

    Everyone happy now I hope.

    Thanked by 1Janevski

    the Amitz.party lives on!

  • pikepike Member

    what the fuck is this thread

    Thanked by 2uptime Janevski
  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider
    edited May 2019

    jsg said: I guess there's a good reason for different approaches and solutions. And I guess that mine is a good one for quite some use cases. For others going with a large corp. service is the right one.

    This sums up backups nicely, there is no silver bullet and one solution might work for one person but not others so each person's backups should be individually tailored for their needs. At the end of the day you need to feel comfortable with your backup scheme so if that means copying your data to a USB drive or replicating it to 6 different geographically diverse locations using different protocols then do what makes you feel confident about your backups.

    jsg said: I can encrypt anyway, that's not a relevant argument.

    For you it might not be, for others it is.

    jsg said: "better redundancy"? How that?

    I meant hardware/network redundancy. The odds of Google or Amazon being offline for more than 1 minute are significantly lower than the chances of an LET provider being offline for more than 1 minute.

    jsg said: But it's not me in control but them. Plus, for me that's important, for you maybe not

    You can give up control in some areas and still have enough control. As long as you have a local backup then you have full control over how to handle that data, you don't need to have the same level of control across the board (that would be very expensive).

    Here's my backup scheme as of last year, yes it's overkill for most people but I maintain multiple backups locally and off-site which gives me the redundancy I'd like along with full control over my data.

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need backup space? Check out BackupDragon
  • @KuJoe said:
    Here's my backup scheme as of last year, yes it's overkill for most people but I maintain multiple backups locally and off-site which gives me the redundancy I'd like along with full control over my data.

    See, the only difference between cloud and regular servers is that cloud have been thoroughly washed and cleaned so they can no dust and sparkle shinning lens flares.

    You are dreaming. | And it's a nightmare. | THE SECRET THREAD | THE TRUTH | HAVES YOU SEEN THIS YURA?
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  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    @Janevski said:

    See, the only difference between cloud and regular servers is that cloud have been thoroughly washed and cleaned so they can no dust and sparkle shinning lens flares.

    No, the main difference between cloud and regular servers is developers put a lot more time into the cloud icons. :lol:

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    Need backup space? Check out BackupDragon
  • jsgjsg Member

    @BeardyUnixGuy said:
    I am unsure if @jsg is considering this as a paid backup service for peanuts ...

    No, not at all. My context was the storage market (and price!) situation and the much liked cheap storage dedis (which tend to be always sold out). And my target group was normal people and (really small) SMEs who want control, low price, solid reliable real redundant storage/backup and who are willing and capable, at least with some help, to think and create their own solution. The thought to make that into a business didn't cross my mind at all.

    Maybe my final trigger was (yet another) f_ckup of a large international corp (Azure with their DNS iirc) which made me question if it's really wise to put something critical like backup into their hands.
    Oh and I'm certainly not the only one who loves tangible things like an optical disk and hands-down practical things like storing those optical disks somewhere safe.

    I guess my definition of "safe" (or "redundant") doesn't care a lot about marketing brochures and big brand names but about tangible factors and results.

    Thanks no.

  • donlidonli Member

    @KuJoe said:

    Here's my backup scheme as of last year, yes it's overkill for most people but I maintain multiple backups locally and off-site which gives me the redundancy I'd like along with full control over my data.

    What is your NAS software and what program do you use to backup from your NAS to the off-site providers?

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    @donli said:

    @KuJoe said:

    Here's my backup scheme as of last year, yes it's overkill for most people but I maintain multiple backups locally and off-site which gives me the redundancy I'd like along with full control over my data.

    What is your NAS software and what program do you use to backup from your NAS to the off-site providers?

    I use Synology hardware for 2 out of my 3 home NASes and the software I use is Hyper Backup and Cloud Sync apps for the cloud providers and rsync for the servers.

    Thanked by 2donli marrco
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  • Where's the tl;dr?

  • FalzoFalzo Member

    @TimboJones said:
    Where's the tl;dr?

    here

    @KuJoe said:
    ...there is no silver bullet and one solution might work for one person but not others so each person's backups should be individually tailored for their needs. At the end of the day you need to feel comfortable with your backup scheme...

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  • MilonMilon Member

    @TimboJones said:
    Where's the tl;dr?

    Too long; Don't read
    :smiley:

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  • @Falzo said:

    @TimboJones said:
    Where's the tl;dr?

    here

    @KuJoe said:
    ...there is no silver bullet and one solution might work for one person but not others so each person's backups should be individually tailored for their needs. At the end of the day you need to feel comfortable with your backup scheme...

    Uh, no.

  • seanhoseanho Member

    I actually read through the entire original post/novel; I feel accomplished. 😄 Thank you jsg for sharing: local backups are good. You're not alone in having this idea (and yes, tier with storage VPSes and ACD/GDrive/etc.).

    My suggestion is to shuck WD EasyStore/Elements for $120/8TB or $150/10TB. They are equivalent to WD Reds, equivalent to HGST enterprise SATA drives.

    If you're confident in your RAID game, pick up a couple dozen decommissioned NL-SAS 3TB/4TB drives for as low as $5/TB (really!), and go nuts with parity. 4U cases can fit 15x or even 24x LFF easily, and you can get a DAS like a SA120 or MD1200 if that's not enough. (After about 8-10 disks you'll probably want to split it up into multiple arrays / zpools.)

    It is very achievable to have upwards of 100TB usable space at home, RAIDed and backed up.

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  • rcxbrcxb Member

    Plain old RAID is obsolete... ZFS ZRAID (or any of a myriad of others) as you find in FreeNAS, will work great even on old and unreliable drives.

    rsync for backups is long obsolete as well. Something like borgbackup for Linux (or Veeam Endpoint for Windows) will dramatically reduce the data transfer size, with deduplication and compression on the client end. Both zero-cost options. Both have data verification options that you can enable to alert you to corruption early.

    And you'll have a much more reliable backup solution if you just rotate backups to three or more other VPS/Clouds/etc. Even if no one of them is reliable, all together you're sure to always have one good copy of your data that way. Your home NAS is a SPOF.

  • SirFoxySirFoxy Member

    In conclusion: backups are good.

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  • donlidonli Member

    @SirFoxy said:
    In conclusion: backups are good.

    But only if you actually make (and verify) them.

    Thanked by 1Falzo
  • Your home NAS is a SPOF.

    Yep. I had only 45 minutes to get my UPS and ghetto NAS + drives upstairs when the floods reached my neighborhood.

    I'm re-doing all my backup schemes in the aftermath.

    The only thing I'm saving locally are high definition Linux ISOs of my favourite classics.

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  • NanoG6NanoG6 Member

    TL;DR
    Thanked, just for the CF rant

  • @BeardyUnixGuy said:
    In an age where society is driven towards increasingly shorter messages/videos/communication, I gave the OP a 'thanks' just for actually taking the time to express a thought in such detail.

    Having said that, and recognizing that I myself belong to the same above-mentioned concentration-lacking society, I did not read the post but instead made a mental "read-it-later" note :smiley:

    I'm curious if you've ever received any dogecoin thanks.

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