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Are electric cars worse for the environment?
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Are electric cars worse for the environment?

https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2018/05/15/are-electric-cars-worse-for-the-environment-000660

05/15/2018

So, if electric-vehicle subsidies don’t help the environment, what—or who—do they help? Most electric-vehicle buyers are far wealthier than average Americans. A nationwide survey in 2017 found that 56% had household incomes of at least $100,000 and 17% had household incomes of at least $200,000. (In 2016, median household income for the US as a whole was less than $58,000.) So it’s fair to say the subsidies disproportionately benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor, who cannot afford to buy even subsidized electric vehicles or live in their own homes to take advantage of residential chargers or solar panels.

Not only that, the wires and charging stations needed to charge all those electric vehicles will be paid for by all ratepayers, further raising electric rates. And as more wealthy customers install solar panels to charge their electric vehicles, the costs to provide them back-up power will fall on those who cannot afford to do so.

In effect, the wealthy owners of electric vehicles will enjoy the benefits of their clean, silent cars, while passing on many of the costs of keeping their vehicles on the road to everyone else, especially the poor.

To be sure, electric cars are impressive. Some are quicker off the line than a Formula 1 race car. But there is no economic or environmental justification for the many billions of dollars in subsidies that America is already paying to speed their adoption.

So what to do? First, Congress should immediately terminate those electric-vehicle tax credits, which just benefit the wealthy. Congress should also eliminate zero-emissions credits, which electric-vehicle manufacturers have used to boost their bottom line – $860 million for Tesla alone in the last three years. And third, states should eliminate their various subsidies for electric vehicles and charging infrastructure, which are also paid for disproportionately by the poor and are contributing to rising electric rates.

Electric vehicle subsidies and mandates share an unfortunate, and all too common trait with other government policies: They’re based on “conventional wisdom” that turns out to be wrong. Wealthy consumers who have purchased Teslas and Chevy Bolts primarily to signal their green bona fides for their friends and neighbors, and who have socialized many of the costs of their purchases to those who are less well-off, might wish to take a closer look at the numbers. Their hands may not be quite so clean as they believe.

Thanked by 1inklight
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Comments

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Doesn't matter.

    While it may not happen in our generation, oil will run out. Alternative solutions need to exist and its tech need to be matured.

  • hostdarehostdare Member, Patron Provider

    it is not about environment always , it is to reduce dependence on oil

  • eoleol Member

    Why is this in "General"?

  • Are troll-powered posts worse for the General environment?

  • eoleol Member

    Maybe.
    Maybe not.

    Thanked by 1uptime
  • Can't argue with that.

    I mean, I could, but I'd really rather not.

    Thanked by 1eol
  • "worse" is subjective. Petrol vehicles are more detrimental in other ways and it also depends on whether or not the power charging those EVs is from solar/wind, or from coal/LPG/NG.

    Thanked by 1solarman
  • eoleol Member

    @uptime said:
    Can't argue with that.

    I mean, I could, but I'd really rather not.

    LOL.

  • I remember it is up to how the electricity was produced.

    Saw this news before:
    Electric car Tesla slapped with $15,000 tax surcharge
    https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/electric-car-tesla-slapped-with-15000-tax-surcharge

    Thanked by 1mailcheap
  • I guess the problem would really be how the old electricity would be recycled.

    Thanked by 1eol
  • mailcheapmailcheap Member, Host Rep

    @JerryHou said:
    I remember it is up to how the electricity was produced.

    Saw this news before:
    Electric car Tesla slapped with $15,000 tax surcharge
    https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/electric-car-tesla-slapped-with-15000-tax-surcharge

    Agreed, electric vehicles are the future but currently they make sense (from an environmental perspective) only in places where the electricity is "green". Burning coal to produce electricity and running electric cars are not environment friendly.

    From the article:

    "a grid emission factor of 0.5g/watt-hour was also applied to the electric energy consumption".
    From this, it was determined that Mr Nguyen's Tesla produced 222g/km of CO2

    That's more CO2 emissions than a 10 year old Euro saloon. Source

    Battery production and recycling are also major producers of carbon, currently in most countries including US less than 5% of Li-ion batteries are recycled. The industry needs to get ahead of these issues before they become just as much a polluter as the oil & gas industry. But the electric energy industry has a lot of room for improvement unlike oil & gas, so clearly its the future.

    Pavin Joseph.

  • vimalwarevimalware Member
    edited January 2019

    Buying a new Diesel in 2019 is just dumb.

    Electric tech will mature rapidly because one self-centered species' survival depends on it.

    Thanked by 1hostdare
  • Hopefully, crude oil won’t run out till I’m dead

    Thanked by 1bugrakoc
  • it's good for my garage environment, and best when neighbours only has old vw beetle.

    aaah ... not that environment, sorry.

  • eoleol Member

    @muffin said:
    Hopefully, crude oil won’t run out till I’m dead

    Don't worry.
    All lies.
    For profit.

    Thanked by 2Chuck hostdare
  • vfusevfuse Member, Host Rep

    There are some studies that suggest that when driving a Tesla with 100kwh battery you would have to drive it more than 250k km before it becomes more environmentally friendly than a gasoline car.

    Thanked by 1Falzo
  • Mr_TomMr_Tom Member, Host Rep

    @eol said:

    @muffin said:
    Hopefully, crude oil won’t run out till I’m dead

    Don't worry.
    All lies.
    For profit.

    Yeah, we'll just make some more. Like we did in the first lot of crude oil.

    Thanked by 1eol
  • eoleol Member

    @Mr_Tom said:

    @eol said:

    @muffin said:
    Hopefully, crude oil won’t run out till I’m dead

    Don't worry.
    All lies.
    For profit.

    Yeah, we'll just make some more. Like we did in the first lot of crude oil.

    LOL.
    Sure.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    What nonsense. Even if 100% of the electricity comes from coal, its still cleaner than petrol. You need to factor in full well to wheel emissions. No one considers the emissions required for pumping and refining oil. Not all oil is equal too. Ironically, it seems Saudi oil is among the cleanest, far cleaner than shale or oil sands oil.

    There is a tremendous amount of energy required in refining petrol.

    And then you need to compare like for like cars. Why people insist on comparing a Toyota Prius to Tesla is beyond me. Why no comparisons with cars in the same class?

    EVs are by far cleaner than ICE. The only exception is if youre buying a 2nd hand ICE and hardly drive it.

    Thanked by 1solarman
  • In the last several years, I've put under $500 worth of consumables into my car (excluding fluids), which has cost far less to the environment than junking this pre-existing device, and buying a new one.

    Come at me bro.

    Thanked by 2eol bugrakoc
  • @vimalware said:
    Buying a new Diesel in 2019 is just dumb.

    Electric tech will mature rapidly because one self-centered species' survival depends on it.

    Depends.
    Yes, If your live in a warm climate, make short trips, and have another option of travel besides your electric car, then yes, electric is the way to go. Diesel is dumb.

    But, Say you live in the wilderness in Canada, a pure electric car would be dumb.
    To heat the car in winter drains the battery more than driving.
    If you need to go long distances, you run the risk of being stuck in the middle of nowhere freezing to death. Hybrid electric-diesel on the other hand would be smart.

    There is a place for pure electric, but its not everywhere.

    Thanked by 1Letzien
  • deankdeank Member, Troll
    edited January 2019

    Wonder whether an electric car will start from cold sleep in cold places like Norway and Siberia (-50c).

    If so, that's a very strong advantage in those regions.

  • FHRFHR Member, Host Rep

    @deank said:
    Wonder whether an electric car will start from cold sleep in cold places like Norway and Siberia (-50c).

    If so, that's a very strong advantage in those regions.

    Yes, it will run - there's nothing to "start" per se. Problem is that batteries aren't engineered to survive -50C. At the very least they will discharge very quickly (think days), at worst they die.

    To answer the original question - that depends on how electricity is made. If your country makes tons of energy from sources like coal... well duh, electric car is going to be a worse choice if you are just concerned about the total amount of "harm" to the environment as a whole.

    Thanked by 1john564
  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Meh, once we enter the space age, it won't matter.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @FHR said:

    @deank said:
    Wonder whether an electric car will start from cold sleep in cold places like Norway and Siberia (-50c).

    If so, that's a very strong advantage in those regions.

    Yes, it will run - there's nothing to "start" per se. Problem is that batteries aren't engineered to survive -50C. At the very least they will discharge very quickly (think days), at worst they die.

    To answer the original question - that depends on how electricity is made. If your country makes tons of energy from sources like coal... well duh, electric car is going to be a worse choice if you are just concerned about the total amount of "harm" to the environment as a whole.

    Factually false. Overall efficiency and emissions from a half decent coal plant will be less than the combined emissions of refining oil and cumbustion of gasoline/diesel. The reality of course is that most electricity grids are no where near all coal. There is a good amount of hydro, wind, solar and nuclear that definitively makes it cleaner. The only way coal emits more is if you assume efficiencoes below ~30% AND assume that the electricity used to refine petrol comes from renewable sources.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @FHR said:

    @deank said:
    Wonder whether an electric car will start from cold sleep in cold places like Norway and Siberia (-50c).

    If so, that's a very strong advantage in those regions.

    Yes, it will run - there's nothing to "start" per se. Problem is that batteries aren't engineered to survive -50C. At the very least they will discharge very quickly (think days), at worst they die.

    To answer the original question - that depends on how electricity is made. If your country makes tons of energy from sources like coal... well duh, electric car is going to be a worse choice if you are just concerned about the total amount of "harm" to the environment as a whole.

    My EV works fine in -30C temperatures in Lithuania. At -50, doesnt most fuel freeze and require heating? If you have access to a power outlet, the battery can be prewarmed and topped up. If you have an EV, you would make sure you have an outlet to plug into. With adequate infrastructure, EVs certainly can replace ICE in all conditions.

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    Currently we burn old crap that blasts a lot of CO² into the atmosphere.
    Thats just stupid, we are not even aware of the full consequences, still we are doing it.

    Global warming, Back and forth, the idea is just stupid, burning all that crap.
    We do have Solar and good batteries, so just use it.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @Letzien said:
    In the last several years, I've put under $500 worth of consumables into my car (excluding fluids), which has cost far less to the environment than junking this pre-existing device, and buying a new one.

    Come at me bro.

    If your usage is low, then yes, your ICE may be better than buying a new EV. Arguably true even when considering used EVs if you consider that someone else who may drive much more would make better use of an EV than you.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll
    edited January 2019

    Battery tech need some major advancements though.

    All I know for 99.9% certain is that oil is not the future. Oil is the past. Stop dwelling on it and we need to move on.

    This will inevitably mean downfall of Middle East though.

    Thanked by 2hostdare uptime
  • FHRFHR Member, Host Rep
    edited January 2019

    randvegeta said: Factually false. Overall efficiency and emissions from a half decent coal plant will be less than the combined emissions of refining oil and cumbustion of gasoline/diesel.

    Get your facts straight then.

    Source: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/617457/IPOL_STU(2018)617457_EN.pdf

    The reality of course is that most electricity grids are no where near all coal. There is a good amount of hydro, wind, solar and nuclear that definitively makes it cleaner. The only way coal emits more is if you assume efficiencoes below ~30% AND assume that the electricity used to refine petrol comes from renewable sources.

    Efficiency is indeed very low with coal and biomass.

    Look at Germany, over 57% of power in 2017 produced from coal, gas and biomass.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for EVs, but the tech has some serious drawbacks.
    It doesn't matter that the car itself runs clean if countries like Germany love their coal (and solar, but that's not really a permanent solution - no sun at night and no way to store energy).

    Another drawback - I can refuel a gas car in 5 minutes and it can go another 900km. Can an EV do this?
    And more drawbacks - If I let an EV sit unused for a month, battery discharges and then it's dead. So needs to be always plugged in if not used frequently.

    Thanked by 2RoboMWM mfs
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