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MaxMind Downgrades China to an overall higher fraud risk.
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MaxMind Downgrades China to an overall higher fraud risk.

AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider
edited November 2018 in General

Today I noticed the following from an order from China in the MaxMind anti Fraud details:

"The order is riskier because it comes from a country associated with high levels of fraud."

This was a special phrase in the past reserved for countries like Brazil, Colombia and Vietnam.

It seems almost directly after the BF/CM weekend China has now been downgraded significantly.

In reality what this means is if any host is using the fairly standard risk % score of 20, an order from China will almost never be accepted when in combination with a free email address or a large distance from the IP and billing address which is incredibly common as in 90% of all orders from China.

I guess this is the result of what seems to be the national attitude towards rights for a refund without asking first.

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Comments

  • Racist! All hosts should accept that, compared to any other nation, China needs a special treatment and if we question any of these we are racists.

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    That message also appears if you go into MaxMind and block a country manually. Did you happen to block them in MaxMind before the message appeared?

    Thanked by 1colingpt
  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider
    edited November 2018

    No that is a different message, when you specifally block a country it says "you specifally blocked orders from this country" or words to that effect.

    I can see orders from china during CM that did not say the country is associated with high levels of fraud while i blod cked china

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    I wish they had a list somewhere to check against. Here's the message on the county block page:

    Please note: If you change any country from the default setting (D), the countries normally flagged as high risk (i.e., highRiskCountry=YES) will no longer be considered high risk. Only blocked countries will have highRiskCountry=YES whereas those in the default position will return highRiskCountry=NO. The score and riskScore will be affected as previously described.

    Thanked by 1colingpt
  • colingptcolingpt Member
    edited November 2018

    lol lol lol, great! So that most hosts will not be bothered by Chinese anymore?

    It is a good thing for both sides.

  • but .. but .. but ... they use vpn to order things

  • That won't stop them.

    Thanked by 1Yura
  • Soon there will be many Barack Obamas and Justin Biebers trying to order $15/yr VPS.

  • @Kiwi83 said:
    Soon there will be many Barack Obamas and Justin Biebers trying to order $15/yr VPS.

    Shit Weasel, Washington DC

  • CrelingCreling Member
    edited November 2018

    I think it is partly because of the large population of China. Maybe the MaxMind just count the amount of fraud orders from China instead of caculating the ratio.

  • I'm Vietnamese but I'm good friend. :(

    Thanked by 3Chuck gol3m Yura
  • jackbjackb Member, Host Rep

    @Creling said:
    I think it is partly because of the large population of China. Maybe the MaxMind just count the amount of fraud orders from China instead of caculating the ratio.

    Ratio of fraud orders Vs non fraud orders for the country isn't bias to large populations and is probably what maxmind do.

    Thanked by 1AnthonySmith
  • starrydotsstarrydots Member
    edited November 2018

    @AnthonySmith said:
    Today I noticed the following from an order from China in the MaxMind anti Fraud details:

    "The order is riskier because it comes from a country associated with high levels of fraud."

    This was a special phrase in the past reserved for countries like Brazil, Colombia and Vietnam.

    It seems almost directly after the BF/CM weekend China has now been downgraded significantly.

    In reality what this means is if any host is using the fairly standard risk % score of 20, an order from China will almost never be accepted when in combination with a free email address or a large distance from the IP and billing address which is incredibly common as in 90% of all orders from China.

    I guess this is the result of what seems to be the national attitude towards rights for a refund without asking first.

    我来自中国,你有权利禁止任何一个国家的订单。另外不是所有的中国人都是你想象中那样坏。任何一个国家都有欺诈的订单。你应该学会如何降低风险和欺诈,而不是封锁。既然你提供服务,那么你就要承担一定的风险。

    这是我的个人看法。

  • @starrydots said:
    我来自中国,你有权利禁止任何一个国家的订单。另外不是所有的中国人都是你想象中那样坏。任何一个国家都有欺诈的订单。你应该学会如何降低风险和欺诈,而不是封锁。既然你提供服务,那么你就要承担一定的风险。

    这是我的个人看法。

    Use English or don't post.

  • @starrydots said:

    @AnthonySmith said:
    Today I noticed the following from an order from China in the MaxMind anti Fraud details:

    "The order is riskier because it comes from a country associated with high levels of fraud."

    This was a special phrase in the past reserved for countries like Brazil, Colombia and Vietnam.

    It seems almost directly after the BF/CM weekend China has now been downgraded significantly.

    In reality what this means is if any host is using the fairly standard risk % score of 20, an order from China will almost never be accepted when in combination with a free email address or a large distance from the IP and billing address which is incredibly common as in 90% of all orders from China.

    I guess this is the result of what seems to be the national attitude towards rights for a refund without asking first.

    我来自中国,你有权利禁止任何一个国家的订单。另外不是所有的中国人都是你想象中那样坏。任何一个国家都有欺诈的订单。你应该学会如何降低风险和欺诈,而不是封锁。既然你提供服务,那么你就要承担一定的风险。

    Blah blah blah. How old are you? 29?

  • VirMachVirMach Member, Patron Provider

    @Creling said:
    I think it is partly because of the large population of China. Maybe the MaxMind just count the amount of fraud orders from China instead of caculating the ratio.

    I'd expect nothing better from Maxmind. We're not sure why we really use them anymore; I guess it's because there's no better alternative and the outputted information can be useful for a human. Going off just the risk score is useless.

    We've contacted them to get geolocation fixed in their database for our servers, and they deny it because we offer VPNs (not like all other hosts can't already be used as a VPN.) It's like okay, make no effort to actually verify the location of the server, you'd rather report the wrong location because you think we're lying to you so that probably means you're not doing much to do correct geolocations when customers order from us.

    Then they completely miss flagging obvious VPNs as a VPN. They flag any random IP they want as a potential open proxy because it was cycled as one maybe like a year ago.

    They add random weights to countries so even know we probably haven't got a single chargeback from Vietnam, they're all considered fraudulent.

    If the customer misspells anything in their address it goes completely crazy instead of just checking it against the country.

    There's been cases where it thinks an order is "fine" when it's not. Like this one I'm looking at right now, distance from IP address is 9849 and they're clearly fraudulent -- good thing one of our staff caught it instead, but the risk score is extremely low.

    We basically have to go through every single order manually anyway on top of it.

    AnthonySmith said: Today I noticed the following from an order from China in the MaxMind anti Fraud details:

    "The order is riskier because it comes from a country associated with high levels of fraud."

    As for this, I'm looking at the most recent orders from China and they're all 1-3%

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    @starrydots said:
    Since you provide services, you have to take certain risks.

    Correction, providers do not HAVE to take risks. Some do and some do not, it's completely up to the provider.

    Thanked by 1CptTz
  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    VirMach said: I'd expect nothing better from Maxmind. We're not sure why we really use them anymore; I guess it's because there's no better alternative and the outputted information can be useful for a human. Going off just the risk score is useless.

    You might want to consider Telesign.

    VirMach said: As for this, I'm looking at the most recent orders from China and they're all 1-3%

    Interesting.

    @starrydots if you think that in any way helps anything you are part of the problem.

    After the GF/CM sales I would say around 20% of the orders came from China, however 100% of the paypal disputes, claims and 2 charge backs (unauthorized payment) claims are from orders from China.

    I cant possibly cast aspersions on one of the largest nations on earth (cant remember if India has a higher populous), that would just be ignorant, I can however suggest there is a cultural incompatibility in terms of entitlement.

  • KuJoe said: Correction, providers do not HAVE to take risks. Some do and some do not, it's completely up to the provider.

    Do you think it might be a good idea to accept high risk orders, as long as the payment method for the first couple months is non refundable? (good old wire transfer and crypto)

  • AnthonySmith said: After the GF/CM sales I would say around 20% of the orders came from China, however 100% of the paypal disputes, claims and 2 charge backs (unauthorized payment) claims are from orders from China.

    I remember a discussion somewhere here about how they are "used" to a different workflow in terms of the payment+refunds (via Alipay or other such payment systems in China) where something analogous to the "dispute" (or claim or whatever) of Paypal is how they are done.

    Is this higher percentage a direct result of this misunderstanding of this process via Paypal? Adding to the misery is that often times, the language barrier makes it even harder to explain or get people to pay attention and read.

    Thanked by 1AnthonySmith
  • BlaZeBlaZe Member, Host Rep

    Ouch :(

  • @VirMach said:

    @Creling said:
    I think it is partly because of the large population of China. Maybe the MaxMind just count the amount of fraud orders from China instead of caculating the ratio.

    I'd expect nothing better from Maxmind. We're not sure why we really use them anymore; I guess it's because there's no better alternative and the outputted information can be useful for a human. Going off just the risk score is useless.

    We've contacted them to get geolocation fixed in their database for our servers, and they deny it because we offer VPNs (not like all other hosts can't already be used as a VPN.) It's like okay, make no effort to actually verify the location of the server, you'd rather report the wrong location because you think we're lying to you so that probably means you're not doing much to do correct geolocations when customers order from us.

    Then they completely miss flagging obvious VPNs as a VPN. They flag any random IP they want as a potential open proxy because it was cycled as one maybe like a year ago.

    They add random weights to countries so even know we probably haven't got a single chargeback from Vietnam, they're all considered fraudulent.

    If the customer misspells anything in their address it goes completely crazy instead of just checking it against the country.

    There's been cases where it thinks an order is "fine" when it's not. Like this one I'm looking at right now, distance from IP address is 9849 and they're clearly fraudulent -- good thing one of our staff caught it instead, but the risk score is extremely low.

    We basically have to go through every single order manually anyway on top of it.

    AnthonySmith said: Today I noticed the following from an order from China in the MaxMind anti Fraud details:

    "The order is riskier because it comes from a country associated with high levels of fraud."

    As for this, I'm looking at the most recent orders from China and they're all 1-3%

    How to put it? Chinese still like servers in Hong Kong, Korea and Japan because they connect very fast.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll
    edited November 2018

    That won't stop them from posting rage reviews. That's the issue.

    We see on LET all the time PMSing "reviews" about not getting refunds even if payment was non refundable or even ToS specifically mentions certain methods of payments are non refundable.

    Even better: they still complain even after getting refunds.

  • First-RootFirst-Root Member, Host Rep

    @Kiwi83 said:
    Soon there will be many Barack Obamas and Justin Biebers trying to order $15/yr VPS.

    Got one today: city san diego, country germany, ip from hong kong and phone number from switzerland. Asked for refund after we requested verification documents.

    Thanked by 1lowendclient
  • Time to stop using MaxMind. Embrace China's Social Credit System !!

  • @FR_Michael said:

    @Kiwi83 said:
    Soon there will be many Barack Obamas and Justin Biebers trying to order $15/yr VPS.

    Got one today: city san diego, country germany, ip from hong kong and phone number from switzerland. Asked for refund after we requested verification documents.

    Name happens to be Kim Jung-un?

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    Maxmind text today CN IP:

    This order is very high risk, and we suggest you not accept it. This order is higher risk because the distance between the billing address and the user's actual location is so great. The order is slightly riskier because the e-mail domain, 163.com, is a free e-mail provider. The order is riskier because it comes from a country associated with high levels of fraud. You specifically blocked this order

    Maxmind text a few days ago CN IP:

    This order is very high risk, and we suggest you not accept it. This order is higher risk because the distance between the billing address and the user's actual location is so great. The order is slightly riskier because the e-mail domain, qq.com, is a free e-mail provider. The order is higher risk because the billing country and the country in which the IP address is located don't match. You specifically blocked this order

  • @KuJoe said:

    @starrydots said:
    Since you provide services, you have to take certain risks.

    Correction, providers do not HAVE to take risks. Some do and some do not, it's completely up to the provider.

    @KuJoe said:

    @starrydots said:
    Since you provide services, you have to take certain risks.

    Correction, providers do not HAVE to take risks. Some do and some do not, it's completely up to the provider.

    I agree that this depends entirely on the provider.

    Because of the cultural differences of different countries, Chinese people think differently.

    Some problems are really hard to solve.

    In China, we are also very annoyed with such people, but there is no way.

  • @naing said:

    @FR_Michael said:

    @Kiwi83 said:
    Soon there will be many Barack Obamas and Justin Biebers trying to order $15/yr VPS.

    Got one today: city san diego, country germany, ip from hong kong and phone number from switzerland. Asked for refund after we requested verification documents.

    Name happens to be Kim Jung-un?

    Many people don't want to leak information to others. Understandable.

    Some providers must provide accurate country, region, street, very strict.

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Host Rep

    @gol3m said:

    KuJoe said: Correction, providers do not HAVE to take risks. Some do and some do not, it's completely up to the provider.

    Do you think it might be a good idea to accept high risk orders, as long as the payment method for the first couple months is non refundable? (good old wire transfer and crypto)

    We've done that in the past, but then it causes a shit storm when they post negative reviews because we don't refund their payment after they abused our network and were terminated after multiple warnings. Right now in my BF/CM thread from last week I'm dealing with a person from China who's making claims against me and they can't even verify that they've ever ordered from us. There's also a user from China who received MULTIPLE refunds from us in a 2 hour period who is actively leaving fake negative reviews on LowEndBox about us (luckily the comments are on really old posts).

    Thanked by 1gol3m
This discussion has been closed.