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Rules for selling on LowEndTalk [Updated November 2021] - Page 4
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Rules for selling on LowEndTalk [Updated November 2021]

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  • funkywizardfunkywizard Member, Provider

    @Mad said:

    Dedicated must not exceed USD$84/month recurring on monthly billing, with no setup fee. (price change is on a 3 month trial, user feedback will be taken in April)

    According to me it makes no sense.

    These are not "LowEnd.." offers anymore and most of the providers would fit in it.

    The ideal one should be USD$59-69/month

    I would disagree with that. Anything under $100 is cheap. Anything under $50 pretty much excludes any provider that doesn't own it's own datacenter AND targets bottom dollar high volume servers (or fly by night operators / scammers).

    In a colocation environment, it costs easily $30 / mo in power alone to set up just about any server. Depends on the server of course, but definitely $20 - $50 / mo in power depending on the server type and where it's hosted. $30 is pretty typical. At $49 I'd be surprised to see anything other than scams and broken hardware.

    Pushing the maximum price to $84 instead of $49 / mo, means that instead of $19 / mo to cover hardware, network, payment processing, support, etc, there's up to $54 / mo to pay for all that stuff. That leaves room for a wide range of possible servers and configurations.

    At the same time, I think you'll see more competition with the $84 limit than you do with $49. At $49, there's no reason for 99% of hosts to even consider marketing here at all period. At $84, you could see one provider asking $79, another offers the same thing for $74 or $69, and you end up encouraging providers to really participate and find ways to cut costs for customers. If people see good volume, it can start to make sense to offer servers for $84 that might normally cost well over $100 / mo. At $49, you can't make up in volume losing money on every sale.

  • qpsqps Member, Provider

    funkywizard said: Anything under $100 is cheap.

    If I were picking, I think this should be the limit.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    @qps said:

    funkywizard said: Anything under $100 is cheap.

    If I were picking, I think this should be the limit.

    And +1 here

    Thanked by 1funkywizard
  • @Clouvider said:

    @qps said:

    funkywizard said: Anything under $100 is cheap.

    If I were picking, I think this should be the limit.

    And +1 here

    There's still a private thread (staff only) tracking the "awesomeness" of offers, both under and over 49 usd.

    So far there doesn't seem much benefit to increase the limit due to lack of good deals dedicated servers in offer threads. (big hint to all dedicated server providers: use this 3 month trial to send out some awesome offers, so everyone can see that increasing the limit leads to more awesomeness on LET.)

    Thanked by 1funkywizard
  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    Just wait till we replenish our stocks ;-).

  • @Clouvider said:
    Just wait till we replenish our stocks ;-).

    Really hope it happens in the next 7 weeks :)

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • qpsqps Member, Provider

    teamacc said: There's still a private thread (staff only) tracking the "awesomeness" of offers, both under and over 49 usd.

    So far there doesn't seem much benefit to increase the limit due to lack of good deals dedicated servers in offer threads. (big hint to all dedicated server providers: use this 3 month trial to send out some awesome offers, so everyone can see that increasing the limit leads to more awesomeness on LET.)

    I guess my question is do we really need a limit at all? Providers who actually invest some time into researching what this community is looking for will know that if the pricing they offer isn't a good deal that no one from here is going to buy it.

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member
    edited March 2018

    I will bite..

    For dedicated servers, I personally agree wit removing the limit but doing so will result in "its not low end" with no actual logical argument would be thrown around so much it will make your head spin though.

    Even when putting the price up to $84 as a trial I had to explain the same point to people so many times I lost count.

    I appreciate when this place was started the limit was set at $7 for VPS, dedicated servers were never even a consideration, so the $49 limit was just plucked out of thin air.

    What is Low End was never actually quantified though as a result of that everyone probably has a different idea and at the same time none of them can be wrong.

    To me an E5 server with 64GB ram and an SSD is NOT a lowend server, just because someone can do it for $49 does not make it a low end server.

    I think the whole locked price thing is highly discriminatory and frankly ignorant at this stage in the life of LET/B, I wont justify that for the 100th time i would just say; get me a $49 server in France and get me a $49 server in Mainland China, then lets compare and you can justify to me why my server is China is a pile of shit in comparison.

    The answer can only be "things in this context at least cost more in China"

    So with that said, we have a few options:

    1. Everyone needs to be universally forced accept that the LE part of LET/B refers to price only and nothing changes and we can just keep talking about hetzner, OVH etc forever and nothing new happens.

    2. We make regional exceptions and rules for dedicated servers (not out of the question) and accept that the arbitrary price is a square peg in a round hole for half the world and as such we just will not get that exposure here (head in the sand) unless we allow per region pricing.

    3. We just remove the price limit for dedicated servers entirely and let the community self moderate.

    Examples to point 3

    If someone is offering an E3-1230 first edition with 32GB RAM and a 500GB SATA for $150 in the Netherlands that's a shit deal and they will be thrashed by the many professionally offended community members we have here.

    If someone offers a dual E5-2690v4 with 256GB RAM and 4 x NVME drives on a 10gbit link for $200 in the USA we are not going to tell them to go away are we.. that's a killer deal.

    Gabe @funkywizard has proven that point with his Dual CPU 48GB Ram, 18TB storage server, from what I understand it has been very popular and would have previously and in my opinion needlessly excluded because of an arbitrary price.

    We already allow general service sellers who in most cases have much lower overheads charge significantly more, it seems stupid to force the lifeblood, the stable base of the entire community to have more restrictions.

    --

    With all that said, none of this is remotely related to the VPS market, the $7 was what the site was founded on, there is so much more flexibility for VPS providers in pricing, with dedicated servers at the base level you have hardware cost+power+BW, with dedicated servers you can split it up to match the market prices so getting a little 512mb VPS in an exotic location is not out of the question, in a less exotic places you might offer 4GB RAM instead.

    I would ask anyone that reads this and finds themselves frustrated by my thoughts to really put yourself in my position, there is no possible way you can make a decision here that will be acceptable to everyone, some people see the price limits like ancient religious texts and that is the price because that is the price and no other thoughts will be entertained, others I know see the price limit of dedicated servers as a point of needless exclusion.

    In the end I guess the best option is setting the parameters allowing the community to self moderate to a large degree, assessing the outcomes over time and then adjusting as required while being prepared for the fact that the outcomes may not be desirable.

    General arguments I just dismiss:

    This will turn it into WHT - ridiculous, if your really feel that way PM me with your argument for this we can debate it at length.

    It will no longer be low End - You did not read what I wrote above or you did but don't agree, again feel free to PM me with your argument.

    tl;dr= A new BMW 5 M series for $15,000 is not a low end box(car) its a fantastic bargain, a 2 year old ford focus for $7,000 is a low end box(car) at a great price, by saying one of them is not low end based on price alone means you just lost your chance of a BMW 5 Series at a ridiculously 'low end' price for what you are actually getting for the money because you closed your eyes to the deal for the sake of an arbitrary rule.

    So who knows where it will end, maybe I just cannot be bothered with the headache.

    Thanked by 2funkywizard ucxo
  • funkywizardfunkywizard Member, Provider

    @teamacc said:

    @Clouvider said:

    @qps said:

    funkywizard said: Anything under $100 is cheap.

    If I were picking, I think this should be the limit.

    And +1 here

    There's still a private thread (staff only) tracking the "awesomeness" of offers, both under and over 49 usd.

    So far there doesn't seem much benefit to increase the limit due to lack of good deals dedicated servers in offer threads. (big hint to all dedicated server providers: use this 3 month trial to send out some awesome offers, so everyone can see that increasing the limit leads to more awesomeness on LET.)

    Not surprising that it would be a slow process. Would probably require more outreach to get the ball moving a bit faster.

    I'm here because Anthony was nice enough (and persistent enough!) in reaching out to me and mentioning the opportunity, along with additional followups and assistance from my staff. I immediately saw the potential, but it still took me a while to get around to doing anything with it (like everyone else, I'm pretty busy).

    So if I saw the potential right away (but only after I was informed of it), and it took me a while to do anything with it, there's probably a lot of others who haven't even started to think about it yet, because they don't even know.

  • funkywizardfunkywizard Member, Provider
    edited March 2018

    @qps said:

    teamacc said: There's still a private thread (staff only) tracking the "awesomeness" of offers, both under and over 49 usd.

    So far there doesn't seem much benefit to increase the limit due to lack of good deals dedicated servers in offer threads. (big hint to all dedicated server providers: use this 3 month trial to send out some awesome offers, so everyone can see that increasing the limit leads to more awesomeness on LET.)

    I guess my question is do we really need a limit at all? Providers who actually invest some time into researching what this community is looking for will know that if the pricing they offer isn't a good deal that no one from here is going to buy it.

    I do think $99 is a fair limit, given the focus of this community. $84 isn't a bad place to test either, just saying if I were picking a number out of thin air, probably would pick $99.

    As to whether there should be a limit or not, I do see the value in having one for this site. On WHT, there -is- a very strong "give it to me cheaper" vibe, but that still doesn't stop people from offering a lot of junk or overpriced stuff. It does make it a challenge to wade through the large number of ads where the pricing is misleading or simply not very good, to get to the occasional offer that does seem quite good. And then find that it's either out of stock, or the order form is incomprehensible / no obvious way to get the pricing that was offered.

    I've spent a fair amount of time on the WHT offers section to do competitive research, and what I usually come away with is a feeling of "how does anyone buy anything from 95% of these companies?"

    So I see having a price limit more as a useful way to declutter. It's also a good way to make the site more niche. Some may see being "niche" as limiting, but I think it's the opposite.

    People old enough to remember software sold in stores may remember learning software that had a grade level on it. "Learn math 5th grade", right next to 1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade, etc. The idea was met with much resistance -- that would take up too much shelf space, there would be too many SKUs, you're limiting your audience, and so forth. What actually happened was they dominated the market. People took a look and said "oh, my child is in third grade, so this software package is obviously for me. I'll buy it."

    Better to have what I call a "polarizing statement" -- something people react strongly to -- some very positive and some very negative -- rather than try to be everything to everyone and end up being nothing to nobody.

    If there were not competing sites out there already trying to be more generalized, I would agree that having a price limit may be too limiting. Given the competitive landscape, I think the price limit serves a useful purpose in differentiating this community from others. The best price limit is certainly debatable, of course.

    Thanked by 2ucxo willie
  • MikePTMikePT Member, Provider

    Agreed. I would definitely set the price limit to 99 USD for Dedicated Servers and keep the 7 USD limit for VPS.

    Glad to have you here @funkywizard, you are a very respectable provider, old enough to know the market very well.

    Thanked by 3funkywizard WSS bigua
  • WSSWSS Member
    edited March 2018

    @MikePT can't get quite enough duck to chin. Still, he has a damn good point.

    Thanked by 1MikePT
  • Rules updated to be less confusing.

    Main changes:

    • VPS pricing now set at $7/month or equivalent for a billing period of max a year ($84/year)
    • New providers (in business less than a year) can offer quarterly as max billing period ($21/quarter)
    • Accounts without a provider tag cannot reply with "PM for offer" at all (used to be allowed if they clarified which company they represented, used to cause some confusion)
    • Domain auctions now require bids to be made in the same currency as the one listed by the OP.
  • @teamacc said:
    Rules updated to be less confusing.

    Main changes:

    • VPS pricing now set at $7/month or equivalent for a billing period of max a year ($84/year)

    Is this one on a trial? Cheers

  • Hoost said: Is this one on a trial? Cheers

    Nope, its a simplification.

    Thanked by 1MichaelCee
  • BharatBBharatB Member, Provider

    @AnthonySmith

    Do reseller rules 2 & 3 apply for Dedicated Servers? or only VPS?

  • BharatB said: Do reseller rules 2 & 3 apply for Dedicated Servers? or only VPS?

    Everything.

  • BharatBBharatB Member, Provider
    edited March 2018

    @AnthonySmith / @teamacc / @trewq

    What's are rules and/or criteria for selling Server Management services?

  • @BharatB said:
    @AnthonySmith / @teamacc / @trewq

    What's are rules and/or criteria for selling Server Management services?

    They would need to fall in line with the VPS rules, i.e. no more than $7 p/m or equivalent, you must have a functional billing system etc.

    Thanked by 1BharatB
  • @AnthonySmith said:

    @BharatB said:
    @AnthonySmith / @teamacc / @trewq

    What's are rules and/or criteria for selling Server Management services?

    They would need to fall in line with the VPS rules, i.e. no more than $7 p/m or equivalent, you must have a functional billing system etc.

    Server management under that price, I don't think is possible

  • BharatBBharatB Member, Provider

    @jetchirag said:

    @AnthonySmith said:

    @BharatB said:
    @AnthonySmith / @teamacc / @trewq

    What's are rules and/or criteria for selling Server Management services?

    They would need to fall in line with the VPS rules, i.e. no more than $7 p/m or equivalent, you must have a functional billing system etc.

    Server management under that price, I don't think is possible

    Yup that's why won't be offering here for quite a while

  • jetchirag said: Server management under that price, I don't think is possible

    Well the LET price tag has always been highly exclusionary, that's what the majority of LET users want.

  • we are a startup company and we are a control panel developer based on VMware. But actually, I cannot find any details about this issue, anybody can help us for how can we provide our products in here?

  • @autovmnet said:
    we are a startup company and we are a control panel developer based on VMware. But actually, I cannot find any details about this issue, anybody can help us for how can we provide our products in here?

    I see CyberPanel is here, but I think that's free. I know nowt about the paid aspect if you do charge. Someone will though ;)

  • winnervpswinnervps Member, Provider
    edited April 2018

    Hi gabe @funkywizard, nice to have you here.

    I'd have say that for some point offering a dedicated server under a 'minimum price' would be a genuine (that's why this forum called a lowend). But considering that the power factor (one of the reason behind the server's pricing) is not the same between each territory, I'd suggest making a "categorization" based on several factors (limiting factor). Bandwidth in Asia would have one of them. But the question then, why could OVH sell less?

  • NekkiNekki Member

    @winnervps said:
    Hi gabe @funkywizard, nice to have you here.

    I'd have say that for some point offering a dedicated server under a 'minimum price' would be a genuine (that's why this forum called a lowend). But considering that the power factor (one of the reason behind the server's pricing) is not the same between each territory, I'd suggest making a "categorization" based on several factors (limiting factor). Bandwidth in Asia would have one of them. But the question then, why could OVH sell less?

    And quickly it becomes complicated and no-one knows what’s going on. Simplicity is key.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • Domain auction rules updated - end date/time must be specified in OP

  • williewillie Member
    edited April 2018

    AnthonySmith said: If someone offers a dual E5-2690v4 with 256GB RAM and 4 x NVME drives on a 10gbit link for $200 in the USA we are not going to tell them to go away are we.. that's a killer deal.

    This is still going on? Yes that's a killer deal but imho it's completely outside of the LE concept, so if we want to include offers like that, we should change the forum name. I do believe "low end" means something and it's not simply "bargain hunters" or "great deals".

    LE can mean different things to different people of course. My take on it is that it's stuff that the average tech enthusiast can fund from a hobby budget without noticing the financial impact. People use LE servers for commercial purposes too and that's great, but it's optional. Most of us would never get a $200 server unless it was producing revenue somehow, no matter how big a bargain it is. So under the "personal funds" concept, that puts it clearly outside LE and it's best to make a new forum (hopefully avoiding WHT's problems) for offers like that.

    AnthonySmith said: tl;dr= A new BMW 5 M series for $15,000 is not a low end box(car) its a fantastic bargain, a 2 year old ford focus for $7,000 is a low end box(car) at a great price, by saying one of them is not low end based on price alone means you just lost your chance of a BMW 5 Series at a ridiculously 'low end' price for what you are actually getting for the money because you closed your eyes to the deal for the sake of an arbitrary rule.

    Why stop at the $15K BMW? Why not a $50K Rolls Royce? How about an A380 Jumbo Jet with a heated swimming pool for $20 million? All fantastic bargains. But none are remotely in the price range of someone looking in a forum for affordable transportation. So they don't belong in e.g. the cheap cars section of the classifieds.

    My suggestion: keep the LE limits in the main offer forum where they are, and make a high-roller subforum where the limits don't apply. To post in the high-end subforum, a provider would need a substantial track record of low end offers (within the LE limits). E.g. 6 months presence on the forum and at least 6 offer threads that meet LE limits for that type of server. So if they want to offer $200 dedis they have to have first made 6 offers for sub-$49 dedis. (It's less of an issue with VPS since getting a $7 VPS offer together is now basically trivial. So maybe the high end forum should be dedis only).

    To paraphrase @funkywizard, offering a $49 dedi isn't easy, because of power costs etc. And yet, many LET hosts manage to do it. Rather than treat it as an unreasonable burden I'd rather treat it as a test of a provider's ability to run a service under challenging cost controls. LE is, if nothing else, about the ability to control costs, so if a host can't do it they don't belong here. Once they have shown they can do that, then fine, let them bring on the higher offers (I guess with a requirement that the LE offers also have to keep coming).

    Thanked by 1quicksilver03
  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider
    edited April 2018

    It doesn't make sense. You're limiting this forum to Hetzner and OVH virtually and that's not a good thing.

    If you're not interested in buying for $55 then don't. Our ledger proves that while keeping the service sustainable at the bare minimum of $~56 USD we sell a lot to LET members who are generally very happy with the level of service provided. If you limit this back to $49 then it means I can't sell you, I won't be selling at a loss nor take unreasonable risks, therefore I won't make an offer here, for the sake of my current Customers who expect the service to be sustainable, thus reducing the choice for other members who're not too fussed about $7 more for the service requiring a dedicated physical asset. Thus potentially robbing LET of members who would stick around if they had a choice between crap and a sustainable service not limited to the crap service only.

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member
    edited April 2018

    Interesting ideas, I the dedi's deals have been tracked since the trial rules, I we need to go through them and discuss and make a decision which will be done soon.

    Given spectre and meltdown essentially making about 50% of the dedi deals pointless on old hardware we used to see which were few and far between to begin with a compromise will be reached one way or another.

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