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i7 2600 WSI Equivalent
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E: No need to further expound on this..
All press is good press when it comes to selling VPS. We made sales on the "speedykvm is a liar cheat" thread also. We always do, because our prices are great and uptime and network are awesome. People only whine when they miss a deal or dont lock in a price, or to join the LET whiners club. Don't like? Don't buy.
Anyway, I was referring to dedis not vps or vdedi as you mentioned our main brand for no reason. We also host a lot of bitcoin miners. I think bitcoin is retarded, but I'll take the miner's money and if they pay with bitcoin that's a bonus too.
Fair enough and I think you are right. It was presented as being about electricity, which caused me concern as a sometimes-heavy CPU user. If electricity is not really an issue, that's great. If it really was an issue, I'd be ok with paying for it. I'd just want to simply be told how much it costs so I could budget accordingly.
So thats you Gordon...
I think he was referring to your ToS not to your price hikes / price locks.
No prob, I didn't like and didn't buy. I do notice the prices and they're generally competitive with the occasional exceptional promo, but I haven't felt much regret at passing anything up.
I doubt anyone is mining BTC without ASIC or at least GPU hardware any more. They're mining Monero and related coins, which are still economical to CPU-mine. I'm in contact with an FPGA guy about fixing that annoying situation.
Being a dick himself kind of gives up the high ground when expecting customers to not be dicks.
[ ... ]
The good news, @qps, is that willie found someone else to testosterone/estrogen rage on.
@WSS I'm still waiting to hear how to distinguish transcoding from mining without running invasive code on the person's server.
@willie I've stopped responding to you because I don't want to lose any more respect this evening. You're still funny, but I'd never want you for a client/customer.
I'd be interested in anything I said that made me sound like a bad customer.
I said I didn't want a dedi with CPU limitations because I sometimes use 100% cpu and don't want to be restricted from that. Using 100% CPU is a perfectly normal thing to do with a dedi, hosts should expect it, it's not even slightly dickish.
I didn't rage against the limitations (in the belief that they were related to electricity costs) but rather I asked how much extra it would cost to get a dedi without them. A dedi with cpu limits goes against traditional expectations but if it's disclosed up front, then ok, whatever. It then turned out that there wasn't really an issue with electricity and it was just about miners, which is also fine.
(Added) Note: most hosts wanting to manage electricity costs from dedicated servers just use lower powered cpus (Atom etc.) on their cheaper plans. That's simpler and nicer than having utilization limits.
I said I was emailing with an FPGA guy about developing FPGA hardware to mine Monero. The purpose is to make CPU mining of Monero uneconomical so we non-miners can have cheap dedis again. QPS and other dedi users should be happy if that happens.
I asked you twice to back up a claim that you made, that you can somehow distinguish between a server running transcoding and one running mining, without invasively examining it. That's a surprising and doubtful claim that has low credibility unless it's explained.
I think I'm a generally good hosting customer. I don't run any public-facing services at all on any VPS or dedi, so have never attracted ddos or other drama. I have a few small static websites on shared hosting and might put up some git repos on a VPS at some point, but that's very tame. I use low to modest bandwidth on everything. I don't use overuse CPU on VPS because I have multiple dedis for that. I don't open a lot of tickets or try to press the limits of TOS in any way I can think of. I do use 100% cpu on dedis sometimes because that's what they are made for! It's not abusive. A dedicated server is an industrial device intended to be used in an industrial way, i.e. at full capacity. I similarly use the full capacity of storage plans that I buy (just the disk space, not iops). I shouldn't have to justify that. LET has gone to pot if someone thinks that's improper.
To be clear I read that as referring to Gisadik, whose TOS is imho indeed written dickishly (I don't know if he wrote it himself though). Qps has not been dickish at all. There was a short period when a new QPS rule aimed at miners had an unintended side effect affecting non-miners, but that got fixed, so now everything is fine.
I'm in a similar boat and what I do want to really understand is why is mining frowned upon?
There are times when we may have a dedi at our disposal with "lean" times when the CPU isn't really doing much and I find it perfectly reasonable (and fashionable?) to try to experiment with whatever the current crypto-coin-fad is at the moment. Maybe you make some money (to offset part of the cost of the dedi) or maybe not. Maybe there's something to learn about experimenting etc. I don't see any harm in it (specifically on a dedi).
It is not (usually) economically viable to rent a dedi for mining and that's pretty well understood by most folks (otherwise, to paraphrase an argument in one of the other threads, the dedi-renters/providers would all just mine instead as there's more money to be made that way).
I'm kind of puzzled on the whole mining-is-banned-on-our-dedi approach (and I really think that fraud can happen mining or not - so blaming fraud/chargebacks purely on mining is a white lie).
I hope I'm making sense.
There are several separate issues going on:
We're in a temporary situation where mining on a cheap dedi can bring in more revenue than the dedi itself costs. So miners have been snapping up the cheap dedis, increasing prices for the rest of us through normal supply and demand.
Quite a few (obviously not all) miners are flat out scammers, so they'll mine on rented dedis and then file chargebacks and stuff like that. This seems to be the main reason QPS has banned them.
Electricity really is a significant cost of dedi hosting, but usage averages out among users, like bandwidth does. Rent out servers with 20TB of transit and some users will use it all, but the average will be much lower and that determines how much pipe you need. Same with CPU: there will be heavier and lighter users and the mix determines your power bill. Mining changes the mix since there is infinite demand for free money, so the actual cost of dedi hosting increases, again resulting in higher prices. That is on top of the supply/demand loop from further up.
Mining in most circumstances is a pretty horrible activity in terms of resource consumption. I can understand doing it anyway if the money is good enough but it usually isn't. So it's automatically at least somewhat distasteful.
Added: Mining in data centers is in a way doubly obnoxious, because data center power usually costs a lot more than normal residential or industrial power. That's partly because of the extra stuff involved (fancy conditioning and switching, backup generators etc.) and partly because DC operators are basically in the business of reselling it at a profit to hosting customers. If you really want to mine, you're better off doing it someplace with cheap power, connecting to the utility directly instead of hosting in a DC. You don't need much network connectivity or backup generators, so DC facilities don't benefit you much.
There's a couple other issues but I'm getting tired. I agree with you that turning a few coins on an otherwise idle server that you already have is different from renting all the servers in sight just for mining.
My mom gets chilly at night and for some reason doesn't like using an extra blanket, so she has an electric heater in her room. Sometimes I think of putting a PC in there to run mining instead, since the electricity is being used anyway. That's a special situation though. Another is in Germany where I've heard that the cost of electricity is sometimes negative. I.e. they pay you to keep their wind farm generators loaded at times when there's too much wind to service their normal consumers. But, I think that will go away as storage systems get better.
You're whining and bitching and having fits over things that don't even affect you. That's why I wouldn't want you around- you're noisy, even if it isn't on the node.
I also haven't answered you because I don't feel the need to justify it or make it harder to identify miners from people who just hammer the shit out of their machines. You're welcome to view that as you wish, but I will not respond to this request further.
I think that's pretty well a given.
I looked at my earlier posts and don't see what I'd call whining, bitching, or having fits. Do you have an exact quote? I snarked back at Gisadik after he called me a name. Other than that I expressed a problem wth QPS's earlier TOS change. QPS then modified his TOS again to fix the problem, so he must have agreed that my complaint was valid.
You're the one throwing fits, whinging about special snowflakes (oh noes, someone wants to rent a computer and actually compute on it, what a special snowflake!) etc. And how can you say it doesn't affect me? I'm a longtime dedi user and I'm affected by any developments in the dedi market around here, plus I'm a programmer who does computation-intensive things, so I'm especially affected by stuff like this.
You don't say how to distinguish between mining and transcoding because you can't, in any practical way. You are posting bullshit, and I'll happily bet real money to that effect.
You also posted bullshit about "programs ... designed to push the CPU/GPU/etc to the limits and possibly cause issues in the future" when pushing a cpu to its (rated) limits is exactly what performance-tuning a program is supposed to do. You can damage a CPU by overclocking but that is not on the menu here (obviously someone who does that should be liable). If you damage a CPU running it within its rated specs then the CPU is defective. AWS, OVH and others rent out powerful GPU servers for as much as $24 an hour, and it's a safe bet that their users aren't letting those machines idle. They buy them to use them and the hardware is built to be used.
I do understand the concept that electricity costs of a dedi are affected by the usage pattern, and I'm fine with the concept of users paying for the electricity that they use. But I don't think a server can legitimately be offered as a dedi (i.e. I think LET rules should prohibit it if it really becomes an issue) unless there's an advertised price within LET price limits that includes enough power to run at 100% CPU for the entire month, and any power limits should be specified with exact numbers rather than vague terms like "excessive". If there's also a lower price offered for using less power that's fine.
Example of above: if a server uses 30 kwh/month at 25% average cpu and 100 kwh/month at 100%, I'd be fine with with someone advertising the server at (say) $39/month with a 30kwh limit or $49/month with no limit, or just charging a straight $0.15/kwh or whatever, as long as the maximum total is within LET's $49 price limit. That way the buyer and seller both know exactly what the bounds are, rather than having vague TOS assertions of unspecified extra charges for undefined "excessive" cpu use.
There's no such thing as excessive cpu use on a dedi. There's only lighter and heavier use, and people wanting heavy use should be able to get if they're willing to pay the power bills.
Look at all of those paragraphs nobody's going to read.
Lol what is this guy trying to prove. No one got time to read that shit.
he mad
Holy wall of shitsnacks.
Long Story Short: Dude wants to rent a car and drive it at top gear full throttle 24/7; gets pissed when someone says "No, rent someone elses' car."
Also I pissed in his cereal when sleepwalking or something.
Which dude? And that comparison is nuts. Computers are built to run full throttle 24/7. If you're not doing that, it is underutilized. Yeah we all run idlers here on LET but people running real production systems do everything they can to make sure they work the hell out of their hardware.
You must be illiterate. Show me where QPS told me to rent someone else's car. He did the exact opposite of that. I told him I'd be unwilling to rent his car under conditions that he had written to keep away actual bad customers. So he changed the conditions so that I could rent from him again.
@willie Haven't I already said I'm done? Is it not evident that I'm talking to others now. Go play in the ball pit.
Your tactics are incredibly similar to those of someone else on here who goes on bizarre diatribes when they feel their titanium coating is tainted by the breath of others. I can only hope that you get help. Have a good weekend!
You are spewing bullshit to those others and I'm calling you on it. If you don't like it, stop bullshitting.
No. I'm saying that you want to use a rented resource at 100% at all times, which you just admitted to, and I said "I don't want you as a customer, either". Now kindly fuck off.
Of course, if I rent a product I want to use it. What's unreasonable about that? There are shared servers but there are also servers that are supposed to be dedicated completely to your use: dedicated servers, fancy that. Nothing wrong with renting a dedicated server and expecting to actually get one.
Yes the high usage increases expenses (just like maxing bandwidth, which I don't but other LETters do, and which probably costs even more) so I asked how much extra I'd have to pay to cover the extra costs, again very reasonable. QPS then fixed the terms to let people run at 100% without having to pay any extra, which was quite accommodating if you ask me.
Oh you mean you. You can't have me as a customer because you're not a provider, DUH!!! The question of me as a customer is only relevant if you've actually made an offer that I might want. QPS made an offer like that, you didn't.
Sorry, this is a technical forum so it's not just about the insults. Being accurate about shit actually counts. Your stuff is full of errors and lies. So YOU fuck off. As long as you keep posting that shit I will keep correcting it.
Oh look, more paragraphs that nobody else wants to read.
No, I refuse to play into your "Not a provider" game, because I've probably worked in this industry longer than you've been breathing, and God willing, will continue to do so long after.
Running a rented server at fulll kilt 24/7 will get you banned from anywhere. Try it.
Go away, Mao, you're still on timeout.
I see I'm getting thanked for some of these posts. So someone is reading them.
Wtf? I do that all the time. Here in this very thread QPS adjusted his TOS specifically to make it ok to do that. Gisadik said Speedykvm welcomes bitcoin miners and he's happy to take their money. The Hetzner rep also posted in the mining thread that they had no problem with how people were using Hetzner's recently depleted auction servers and they didn't make any pricing change in response to the mining invasion.
You have a crazed idea that there is something morally or tecnically wrong with using a computer as its maker intended. If you have 1000 computers doing something at only 80% utilization, that means you wasted your company's money buying ~200 computers that you didn't need. That would get you fired in some places. Here, try this web search:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=maximize+cpu+usage
It's all full of questions and advice about how to get higher cpu utilization from systems. That's what people like me get paid to figure out how to do.
For anyone else: I'm not going to argue with a brick wall: @jarland can tell you just how well that works. I'm not going to endure any more arrogance and ignorance which isn't self-taught.
Thank you for allowing this thread to drop.
Not liked by @vimalware
I haven't seen this (granted I don't go and read the fine print in all the ToS I "blindly" accept much like various agreements etc.) anywhere and this is definitely different from my (I think reasonable) expectation that a dedicated is dedicated for precisely that purpose of affording me the luxury of using that machine's resources a 100%.
I don't quite understand why this is not permitted. Why on earth is it unreasonable to expect to put my own dedicated idle cores to some good use? As long as I'm within TDP and the system is performing within the rated specs why should I bat an eyelid on running a long/expensive job (even if that is mining which in some ways is no different than other CPU intensive jobs like machine learning, transcoding etc.).
I'm with @willie here in terms of my expectations on using the dedi.
And again, please refer my comment (earlier) on why I don't agree with fraud being the only reason to refuse a server mining. And again to clarify, I'm not talking about renting every available dedi in sight for mining, but using a dedi to also mine (or transcode or whatever) when there are cpu cycles/cores available and idle.
And your rented car analogy just doesn't fit the bill - I may want to drive that rental car 24/7 at 60 mph and that probably will "exceed" some limits on the machine (like heat etc.) and so it is detrimental. "Driving" a dedi with appropriate cooling and performing within it's rated limits should be perfectly ok and I don't see any harm done.
Also, while everyone may not read every paragraph, when it does make sense and is relevant to the point being discussed, I think it is prudent to read it thoroughly lest you spew out something irrelevant.
It's NOT fucking yours just because you're renting it.
Fucking millennials.