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Is PayPal always against the seller? Just curious
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Is PayPal always against the seller? Just curious

Hello

I am just curious of one think, my friend is a reseller of dedicated server in Poland, some time ago he received an order from the U.S and due to the fact that he is unable to speak english at all he ask me to help in processing that order, I mean thinks like translating welcome e-mail, replying to additional tickets from the buyer, give him (client) the server credentials after delivery etc, etc. I helped him and give all server credentials (along with IPMI access details, )to the client, then he asked if I can reinstall OS to centos, I replied that he can use IPMI interface to do that himself free of charge or I can do that for him as an additional paid service. Then I get the response like OK, please reinstall it, but no money for that service, despite the fact that the additional invoice was generated in WHMCS. after some time I ask the buyer if he want to have server reinstalled because we don't receive payment for that service, and he told us, yes please reinstall the OS and again no money. Couple days later client ask about additional IP addresses, I replied him with the price, he ask for generate a billing then paid for the IPs. At that point I assumed that either he managed to install OS himsekf via IPMI or don't interested to do that any longer but the funny part starts here. The month passed and the client open a PayPal dispute and as reason he stated that "I don't received the service" I replied to PayPal attaching screent of invoices and all of the tickets with that client but PayPal replied something like the dedicated server is intangible product so they cannot determine if we delivered it or not because they don't have any confirmation from UPS or other post office and... They withdraw the money from friend's PayPal in the buyers favour. Unfortunately it was several years ago, when I eben don't know about LET and now my friend no longer have hosting company so my question is just because of curiosity, it is a normal behaviour of PayPal, that they always against the seller / in favour of buyer or at least it was several years ago or maybe it was a horrible mistake or missunderstanding? Well I am not a native speaker of english, but I hope that you can undersyand this pot and if yes? ;) I also assume that PayPal and buyer should understand my ticket to him. Please tell me about your experience, preferably from both sides, as seller and as buyer.

Comments

  • bacloudbacloud Member, Patron Provider

    Not always.We won 95%+ of cases and still increasing. Very depends on situation and your account history.

    But it is not possible to win "unauthorized transaction" cases, but if you know how to manage everything, there not much unauthorized transactions.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Host, Host Rep, Veteran

    Always make sure the paypal email matches the email on the account.

    You can then provide paypal proof that the email was sent (from the email logs in WHMCS, etc) and usually login logs as well on Solus/etc.

    We've won similar numbers to @bacloud, and in many cases when it's a stolen account/card, Paypal pays out of pocket. It's possible they're willing to do that due to how low our chargeback ratio is, who knows.

    Francisco

    Thanked by 1IncognitoBurrito
  • I am also reselling my service and had such situation in the past .. but learned from my mistakes now if you got valid proof and verification of payment done by the client you can win the case.

  • MikePTMikePT Moderator, Patron Provider, Veteran

    PayPal's intangible items policy has changed, they now cover those as well (https://www.paypal.com/stories/us/paypal-extends-buyer-protection-to-intangible-goods-a-growing-area-of-sales).

    Lots of things have changed in their end.

    Thanked by 1MrH
  • it is a normal behaviour of PayPal, that they always against the seller / in favour of buyer

    No.

  • Unauthorized transaction claims can also be won if you have documented communication via email and if buyer is communicating PayPal email.

  • @Francisco said:
    Always make sure the paypal email matches the email on the account.

    You can then provide paypal proof that the email was sent (from the email logs in WHMCS, etc) and usually login logs as well on Solus/etc.

    We've won similar numbers to @bacloud, and in many cases when it's a stolen account/card, Paypal pays out of pocket. It's possible they're willing to do that due to how low our chargeback ratio is, who knows.

    Francisco

    Ive never had my payments denied and my paypal email is never the same as the account email ([email protected] vs. [email protected])

  • marsonmarson Member
    edited November 2017

    what "Unauthorized transaction" mean in this case, client paid for the server and received it at least in our point of view ;) we attached the screenshot of full conversation between client and us as a proof to PayPal but "due to the intangible product bla bla bla" ;)

  • MagicalTrain said: Ive never had my payments denied and my paypal email is never the same as the account email

    I have the same thing, I have a gmail account but my Paypal account is a business acct that is tied to an old hotmail account. I just use my old hotmail account for all hosting purchases though because that way I don't have to worry about my orders having to be verified or any of that.

  • To my knowledge unauthorized transactions can only be won for tangible products delivered on the paypal address with an approved logistic provider.

  • edited November 2017

    I have won disputes with customers on PayPal. So no they are not always against the seller. Just give them all the documentation they ask for and more. The burden of proof is on you.

    You will still lose if the customer is reporting the card lost/stolen or PayPal account hijacked. Some of those risks can be reduced with some common sense things. Like don't accept yahoo/aol email accounts. Anything remotely suspicious and wait a few days to see if the payment is disputed.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Was the first post copy & paste? My word, that's a big wall of text. I couldn't read it.

  • Someone TLDR?

  • PayPal is fickle, and non-tangible goods are also a problem.

    Since you provided services and records thereof, it really is up to them to decide whether the product was usable, or not- and if he was able to convince them that you never "did it for him", even if it was an unmanaged service, they likely fell towards him, since there was no express "DO IT YOURSELF" statement in your sales information that you may have presented to them.

    Plenty of times, you get people who just don't understand how to deal with non-tangible goods. No tracking number? Refund. I've lost money several times on even tangible goods that cost so little that it made no sense to pay $2 to ship them.

    Here's the first of four videos of a physical labor shop who ends up getting fucked out of nearly $5k, because they were dealing with a crazy old lady who took up so much of their time that they ended up doing work for her without getting paid just to make her go away.

    PayPal is the same way, but with YOUR money. Long story short, assholes will be assholes if not held in check.

  • Paypal actually is notorious for playing both sides and keeping the $$. They usually pay both parties plus more when you figure it out. Expect an NDA..

  • In my experience, no. They've been helpful. I had a client who disputed charges from me, but since I have proof that he made purchases off of my services, they cancelled his dispute.

  • marsonmarson Member
    edited November 2017

    @corbpie said:
    Someone TLDR?

    TL;DR ;)
    client bought dedicated server from us, we delivered it then client ask for server reinstallation from debian to centos, we told him that this is paid service or they can use IPMI for that himself, then no money for server reinstallation, instead he ask about additional IPs and paid for them.

    Then after the month of service he open a dispute, then claim because he told to PayPal that he didn't received the service and he won it because dedicated server is intangible product and PayPal has no proof that we delivered it, despite the fact that we give him screenshots of WHMCS tickets and invoices. and last think, it was several years ago so maybe thinks changed in PayPal.

    @deank sorry if it is hard to you read whole story, I can't edit the post any longer to divide the tekst into paragraphs and to correct the typos that I see on it, but unfortunately, I am only an ordinary member so time passes ;)

    Thanks for all other replies, it looks like thinks are better now

  • CConnerCConner Member, Host Rep

    Unlike VPS I think you can classify a dedicated server as a tangible good. Or do they consider all services as intangible?

  • @CConner said:
    Unlike VPS I think you can classify a dedicated server as a tangible good. Or do they consider all services as intangible?

    I don't know how it is handled now, again the whole threat I started just because out of my curiosity of current experiences but when that happened several years ago (about 2012) PayPal's statement was that intangible products = product without shipping by approwed logistic company.

    We even later laughed with my friends that in future we will be sending a piece of paper with server credentials printed on it to every client just to be classified as tangible good. ;)

  • edited November 2017

    @cheapwebdev said:
    Paypal actually is notorious for playing both sides and keeping the $$. They usually pay both parties plus more when you figure it out. Expect an NDA..

    Proof or conspiracy theory? What you are implying is highly illegal.

  • @LosPollosHermanos said:

    @cheapwebdev said:
    Paypal actually is notorious for playing both sides and keeping the $$. They usually pay both parties plus more when you figure it out. Expect an NDA..

    Proof or conspiracy theory? What you are implying is highly illegal.

    Segregation of duties works in favor here, because even the employees may not know inside their naive silos.

  • edited November 2017

    @cheapwebdev said:

    @LosPollosHermanos said:

    @cheapwebdev said:
    Paypal actually is notorious for playing both sides and keeping the $$. They usually pay both parties plus more when you figure it out. Expect an NDA..

    Proof or conspiracy theory? What you are implying is highly illegal.

    Segregation of duties works in favor here, because even the employees may not know inside their naive silos.

    In other words, a conspiracy theory.

  • @LosPollosHermanos said:

    @cheapwebdev said:

    @LosPollosHermanos said:

    @cheapwebdev said:
    Paypal actually is notorious for playing both sides and keeping the $$. They usually pay both parties plus more when you figure it out. Expect an NDA..

    Proof or conspiracy theory? What you are implying is highly illegal.

    Segregation of duties works in favor here, because even the employees may not know inside their naive silos.

    In other words, a conspiracy theory.

    In other words, you are still stuck on stage 1 - Denial.

  • You win some, you lose some. Generally if the seller doesn't provide the product as described or ignores the dispute, the buyer will be favoured.

    The seller can make up some BS about you abusing your server or whatnot and it's hard for Paypal to make a decent judgement.

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