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Is shared kernel virtualisation relevant anymore? Is LXC the next step?
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Is shared kernel virtualisation relevant anymore? Is LXC the next step?

trewqtrewq Moderator, Provider

Hey everyone,

With OpenVZ gradually going out the window in favour of OpenVZ 7 what's everyone's thinking about shared kernel virtualisation like LXC? Do you think it's even relevant anymore due to the price of hardware going down?

From what I've see a shift has taken place that favours reasonably prices KVM compared to insanely barely covering IP costs shared kernel hosts.

1 vCPU | 1GB RAM | 10GB NVMe | 1TB Data | $9 AUD/month (~$6.89 USD) | Melbourne AU | ORDER NOW! | Looking Glass

Comments

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    Containers will always have a place. LowEndBoxes are alive and well thanks to containers! :)

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need free hosting? Get AFreeCloud
    Thanked by 2Maounique WSS
  • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider
    edited November 14

    The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

  • trewqtrewq Moderator, Provider

    @MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    Simplicity I imagine. For a long time I didn't buy KVM for the simple fact that I had to worry about stuff like boot order and installing via ISO, I just wanted something that worked when I purchased it. Obviously now I know KVM is simple (and can have template installs too ;) ) as well but it felt like a huge learning curve as a consumer.

    1 vCPU | 1GB RAM | 10GB NVMe | 1TB Data | $9 AUD/month (~$6.89 USD) | Melbourne AU | ORDER NOW! | Looking Glass

  • @trewq said:

    @MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    Simplicity I imagine. For a long time I didn't buy KVM for the simple fact that I had to worry about stuff like boot order and installing via ISO, I just wanted something that worked when I purchased it. Obviously now I know KVM is simple (and can have template installs too ;) ) as well but it felt like a huge learning curve as a consumer.

    Interestingly, my first VM purchase/rental was a KVM, having only rented or owned dedicated servers before.. It had no real learning curve for me. The learning curve then came I bought an OpenVZ for the first time and was confused with what I couldn't do at times.. fuse, Tun/tap activation?

    I don't think there's any reason for me to buy OpenVZ anymore, though. The price differential doesn't justify it anymore.

    meow?

    Thanked by 2Falzo Maounique
  • rm_rm_ Member
    edited November 14

    MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    MikeA said: ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

    I wanted to check out what you're selling, but your website is way too prem

    I suppose you sell via LET PMs or such, so who needs a website.

    trewq said: Simplicity I imagine.

    On a more serious note, I suspect the sole reason is PRICE. Nobody (sane) is trying to sell OVZ at the same price as KVM, with all other things being equal. OVZ is cheaper (or OVZ plans offer more of something, such as RAM, disk, or even bandwidth), that's why people buy it.

    Thanked by 1Maounique
  • MikePTMikePT Member, Provider

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

    I wanted to check out what you're selling, but your website is way too prem

    I suppose you sell via LET PMs or such, so why even need a website.

    Loads fine here, at least now :p

    FiberFy - High-End Dedicated Servers in Dallas, TX, delivered in less than an hour - Black Friday promotions started!

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  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    There are quite a few benefits to picking OpenVZ: performance, lower overhead, simplicity, ease of backups, and mobility. I personally chose OpenVZ over KVM for my personal VPSs unless I need a Windows VPS then I'll spin up something in ESXi.

    From a consumer standpoint I think it depends on the resources also. For me if I need something from another provider with more than 2GB of RAM I tend to lean towards KVM, but if it's 1GB or less I'll pick OpenVZ for the lower footprint so I can utilize more of the RAM for my apps. A good example is the 64MB RAM VPSs that we sell, a 64MB KVM doesn't make a whole lot of sense after you manage to get an OS installed but 64MB if more than enough to fit a DNS server, VPN server, web server, FTP server, and more when you use OpenVZ.

    rm_ said: Nobody (sane) is trying to sell OVZ at the same price as KVM

    Being sane is overrated. :P Even though our KVM plans are cheaper than our OpenVZ we still sell more OpenVZ for some reason.

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need free hosting? Get AFreeCloud
    Thanked by 2Maounique jarland
  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Provider

    MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    This^ in a nutshell, while I understand why some people might think OpenVZ is "annoying" in terms of consumers, those people are in the minority.

    Inception Hosting Limited - NL, UK, Phoenix AZ USA, KVM and OpenVZ | NEW PURE NVME SSD OpenVZ UK

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider
    edited November 14

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    MikeA said: ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

    I wanted to check out what you're selling, but your website is way too prem

    I suppose you sell via LET PMs or such, so who needs a website.

    no need to be rude, it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks that either; a.) Openly harbor scammers/fraud or criminals b.) I've gotten over 10 fraudulent orders from. c.) Networks used by people to create 30+ accounts bypassing closures and IP bans.

    Residential networks aren't blocked, nor are common networks used by many of the big datacenters.

    ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

  • rm_rm_ Member
    edited November 14

    MikeA said: it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks

    I live in an oppressive regime with censored Internet, so I have to use VPN via a commercial ASN for my day-to-day browsing. And rather than creating an impression that you are inept and failed at setting up a website, surely you could put a page telling about the blocking in place to visitors like me?

  • MaouniqueMaounique Provider
    edited November 14

    Containers will always have a place and OVZ is a bastardized kind of a vm in container form.
    We are thinking to launch LXC to test with unpriviledged containers, however, it will not come anywhere close to OVZ at the things it can do, all those modules we dont load anyway...
    I like containers, I really do, as Kujoe said, 64 MB KVM will hold the kernel and some libraries, while an OVZ is already usable for some limited purposes.
    It is not the overhead or performance only, that is pretty low indeed, but with today machines, insignificantly so, it is the usability of the resources and economy, you can reuse OVZ memory many times over, while in KVM a lot is wasted with all those pesky kernels which tend to grow and grow and grow... Have 200 KVMs on a node, 30 GBs RAM are wasted at least with redundant stuff replicated in each vm.
    Yes, you can over-commit to a point, but containers are much more flexible and offer more economies in terms of resources at the price of flexibility and functionality.
    Want blazing fast vm at half the price for the resources? You go OVZ, massive cheap cache to save on CPU. Need kernel access, compile your own weird shit, go KVM.
    I personally like Xen, but that is probably because I am too old and uncool.

    I work for Uncle!

    Thanked by 1flatland_spider
  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks

    I live in an oppressive regime with censored Internet, so I have to use VPN via a commercial ASN for my day-to-day browsing. And rather than creating an impression that you are inept and failed at setting up a website, surely you could put a page telling about the blocking in place to visitors like me?

    If they knew they were being blocked they would just find a way around it though. I ran into the same issue and all of a sudden the problem stopped when they got redirected to a error page instead. :)

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need free hosting? Get AFreeCloud
    Thanked by 1Aidan
  • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider
    edited November 14

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks

    I live in an oppressive regime with censored Internet, so I have to use VPN via a commercial ASN for my day-to-day browsing. And rather than creating an impression that you are inept and failed at setting up a website, surely you could put a page telling about the blocking in place to visitors like me?

    .

    @KuJoe said:

    @rm_ said:

    MikeA said: it's like that because the network you're on was blocked. I block commercial ASNs and VPN networks

    I live in an oppressive regime with censored Internet, so I have to use VPN via a commercial ASN for my day-to-day browsing. And rather than creating an impression that you are inept and failed at setting up a website, surely you could put a page telling about the blocking in place to visitors like me?

    If they knew they were being blocked they would just find a way around it though. I ran into the same issue and all of a sudden the problem stopped when they got redirected to a error page instead. :)

    I actually had a page specifically for it and the reasons, but I guess a software update reverted it back to stock Apache files, I didn't know it modified any. I set it back to the block page I created so it should show this now - https://i.gyazo.com/279f948cb7a449339b69509bba3aadd2.png

    So either way, thanks for bringing it up so I could replace the files I guess @rm_ -- If someone sends an e-mail with their IP and e-mail I'll remove the IP basically instantly.

    And yes, I'm totally aware of countries who censor or have big privacy issues. I have many clients from Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the likes.

    no real point to go so far off topic.

    ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

    Thanked by 1rm_
  • WSSWSS Member

    @AnthonySmith said:

    MikeA said: The only reason I haven't quit selling OpenVZ is because it sells 3-4x better than KVM. No clue why.

    This^ in a nutshell, while I understand why some people might think OpenVZ is "annoying" in terms of consumers, those people are in the minority.

    It's FOR the annoying consumer.

    "I won't purchase a VPS at any CC location, because of their shitty business and the fact they STILL DON'T HAVE IPv6!!" - nunim, Sept 10, 2013

  • imokimok Member

    Most of the time I prefer OpenVZ because is cheaper and this:

    KuJoe said: There are quite a few benefits to picking OpenVZ: performance, lower overhead, simplicity, ease of backups, and mobility.

    Also I can have a new clean OS in a couple of minutes with just a click. Although my new KVM provider allows me to have 2 backups... quite similar.

    I have never used LXC. Which providers sell LXC?

  • telaseratelasera Member, Provider

    I think containers are still a valid option in 2017. Although more & more customers are moving to KVM as prices are continuing to fall.

    Telasera - VPS Hosting South Africa | Dedicated Servers | Windows Web Hosting

  • A lot of companies are moving to container fleets, but they're using Docker and Kubernetes rather then LXC/LXD or OpenVZ/Virtuozzo. I really wish RH would put some work into something besides Docker, or better yet, acquire Virtuozzo. Docker isn't built for long running application and persistence.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Provider

    Is anyone offering OVZ 7? I know Solus was wanting to offer it but..well, Solus.

    Francisco

    BuyVM - Dedicated KVM Slices / Anycast Support! / Stallion Control Panel / Windows 2008, 2012, & 2016! / Unmetered Bandwidth!
    BuyShared - Shared & Reseller Hosting / cPanel + Softaculous + CloudLinux / Pure SSD! / Free Dedicated IP Address
  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    Francisco said: Is anyone offering OVZ 7?

    I looked into it but I still don't trust ploop yet. Although adding KVM support into the OVZ 7 kernel was an interesting move. :)

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need free hosting? Get AFreeCloud
  • hostfavhostfav Member, Provider

    imok said: I have never used LXC. Which providers sell LXC?

    We sell LXC and lot of our customers are using them. We migrated users from OpenVZ to LXC (Virtualizor OpneVZ to Proxmox LXC). Migration was very simple.

    We are also running few LXC based Production Multi Tenant PBXs. Few customers are using them for their Call Center.

    Thanked by 1imok
  • jarlandjarland Administrator
    edited November 15

    KuJoe said: There are quite a few benefits to picking OpenVZ: performance, lower overhead, simplicity, ease of backups, and mobility. I personally chose OpenVZ over KVM for my personal VPSs unless I need a Windows VPS then I'll spin up something in ESXi.

    This. It's a fact that you can squeeze more out of a physical server with OpenVZ than with KVM. Everyone's mind jumps to "overselling" like it's a bad thing, but it works on a personal level too. I'm not going to give a VM so little memory that it can't burst, but with KVM (for the most part, KSM isn't half of what anyone would make it out to be) I have an absolute limit to how many VMs I can make before I crash the host.

    With OpenVZ, over-provisioning memory is a huge personal benefit for my servers. To the point that I honestly can't even fathom why anyone is splitting their own dedi into KVM instances when using Linux in the VMs. Whatever you need can be done with veth and ploop, or it's documented on the wiki.

    KuJoe said: I still don't trust ploop yet

    It's fine, but it limits overprovisioning. I have a live scenario that makes you want to stick with simfs. I have two VZ containers on a host node with ploop, software RAID, and so much data stored that backups are rolling in a loop. The constant writing of large backup files (per account) and then deleting them causes the ploop volume to balloon, so I have vzctl compact also running in loops behind it because I've slightly overprovisioned with the two containers, and both ballooning to max capacity equals crisis. If you've guessed that I hover around 25% iowait, you'd be right.

    On my latest node I've gone back to simfs, there's just no reason to use ploop unless it meets a specific need.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Provider

    jarland said: On my latest node I've gone back to simfs, there's just no reason to use ploop unless it meets a specific need.

    I lost multiple customer VM's to ploop resizing incorrectly and corrupting itself. I'm not sure if it was something we were doing wrong (a weird conflict, etc) but after that we moved everyone back.

    Francisco

    BuyVM - Dedicated KVM Slices / Anycast Support! / Stallion Control Panel / Windows 2008, 2012, & 2016! / Unmetered Bandwidth!
    BuyShared - Shared & Reseller Hosting / cPanel + Softaculous + CloudLinux / Pure SSD! / Free Dedicated IP Address
  • @Francisco said: Is anyone offering OVZ 7? I know Solus was wanting to offer it but..well, Solus.

    Francisco

    Virtualizor 2

    I work for Uncle!

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  • I guess, since people are in for cheap vm's sure they gonna pick stuff such as OpenVZ or LXC, but if you are paranoid and want performance.

    Dedis are the future, just wait, a few times in a year, offers drop with a price so deep, you will never ever buy a shitty container again.

    But for the majority, sure they will keep buying it.

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider

    @Francisco said:

    jarland said: On my latest node I've gone back to simfs, there's just no reason to use ploop unless it meets a specific need.

    I lost multiple customer VM's to ploop resizing incorrectly and corrupting itself. I'm not sure if it was something we were doing wrong (a weird conflict, etc) but after that we moved everyone back.

    Francisco

    Glad that hasn't happened to me before, considering everything is ploop..

    ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider
    edited November 15

    @Neoon said:
    Dedis are the future, just wait, a few times in a year, offers drop with a price so deep, you will never ever buy a shitty container again.

    Offers drop deep, the profits fallin' steep..

    ExtraVM - DDoS Protected VPS - US, CA, FR, SNG

  • NeoonNeoon Member
    edited November 15

    @MikeA said:

    @Neoon said:
    Dedis are the future, just wait, a few times in a year, offers drop with a price so deep, you will never ever buy a shitty container again.

    Offers drop deep, the profits fallin' steep..

    These are mostly old hardware, already paid, and limited stock.
    Before leave them on a stock pile, you put them into use again.

    Kimsufi or any other provider would make less profit yes but no loss.
    Except maybe you doing a promotion like Online.net.

    But you do calculate into, that new costumers subsidize the promo.

    Additional, there are even more reasons for OVH/Kimsuf to put these servers into stock, IP's. So they can get another /16.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Provider

    Neoon said: Additional, there are even more reasons for OVH/Kimsuf to put these servers into stock, IP's. So they can get another /16.

    Er, you're aware the public pools are empty and that they don't have to justify anything right? They simply swipe their Visa VC Gold card and they're transferred.

    Francisco

    BuyVM - Dedicated KVM Slices / Anycast Support! / Stallion Control Panel / Windows 2008, 2012, & 2016! / Unmetered Bandwidth!
    BuyShared - Shared & Reseller Hosting / cPanel + Softaculous + CloudLinux / Pure SSD! / Free Dedicated IP Address
  • NeoonNeoon Member
    edited November 15

    @Francisco said:

    Neoon said: Additional, there are even more reasons for OVH/Kimsuf to put these servers into stock, IP's. So they can get another /16.

    Er, you're aware the public pools are empty and that they don't have to justify anything right? They simply swipe their Visa VC Gold card and they're transferred.

    Francisco

    Still, they seem to be forced to use them, if you buy a block at OVH, as costumer.
    You need to use it, otherwise OVH takes the IP's away.

    They maybe have the money yes, but buying a ton of IP's without any usage, they gonna loose them again.

    Interesting would be the percentage of OVH/SYS vs Kimsufi.

  • trewqtrewq Moderator, Provider

    @Neoon said:

    @Francisco said:

    Neoon said: Additional, there are even more reasons for OVH/Kimsuf to put these servers into stock, IP's. So they can get another /16.

    Er, you're aware the public pools are empty and that they don't have to justify anything right? They simply swipe their Visa VC Gold card and they're transferred.

    Francisco

    Still, they seem to be forced to use them, if you buy a block at OVH, as costumer.
    You need to use it, otherwise OVH takes the IP's away.

    They maybe have the money yes, but buying a ton of IP's without any usage, they gonna loose them again.

    Interesting would be the percentage of OVH/SYS vs Kimsufi.

    They take them away because it's more profitable long term for them to have IPs available for new server/clients that constantly buy new services.

    1 vCPU | 1GB RAM | 10GB NVMe | 1TB Data | $9 AUD/month (~$6.89 USD) | Melbourne AU | ORDER NOW! | Looking Glass

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  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    @trewq said:

    They take them away because it's more profitable long term for them to have IPs available for new server/clients that constantly buy new services.

    Exactly. I'd rather sell a VPS for $30 than an addon IP for $3.

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need free hosting? Get AFreeCloud
  • I love containers... on my own hardware. Unless I need KVM, pretty much everything is running in OpenVZ (really need to upgrade a couple Proxmox 3 servers...) or LXC.

    Almost completely KVM for VPS's I rent though, except for some insanely special deals or stuff that's been super reliable for years and I see no need to move it (Ramnode OVZ with over 3 years uptime, SecureDragon boxes that I never hear a blip from on my monitoring).

    Black Friday Hypeeeee

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  • edited November 15

    From a hosters perspective, containers are great because the overhead is far better. An enduser will see a much better I/O and response on a container than a KVM, in general. Yes it is a little easier to oversell but you can just as easily load up a KVM Node and make the end users experience bad.

    I am going to really miss SIMFS OpenVZ. Even with OVZ 7 you will lose some features with SIMFS so it doesn't make any sense to use that anymore.

    Let me tell you why SIMFS was so great. Something you almost never read anywhere. I can run a virus scanner or file search on the entire server including all containers, because containers are just folders with SIMFS. Also makes it easy to do lots of other things. So SIMFS was great from an administrators point of view. Really going to miss it.

    Just this week my virus scanner picked up a new exploit hitting some containers. Bam! I had the hackers shut down before they even had a chance to take advantage. Can't really do that on anything besides SIMFS. At least not practically/easily.

  • edited November 15

    @Neoon said: I guess, since people are in for cheap vm's sure they gonna pick stuff such as OpenVZ or LXC, but if you are paranoid and want performance.

    Dedis are the future, just wait, a few times in a year, offers drop with a price so deep, you will never ever buy a shitty container again.

    But for the majority, sure they will keep buying it.

    You are in this end user mindset that OVZ is lower end for some reason. Most people don't know or care about the differences anyways and don't know how to set up Dedi's themselves. Yes, you can do the pointy clicky thing to install pre-made images with providers like OVH but you will still need to know your way around Linux at some point.

    I sell dedicated servers but I put the customer on an OpenVZ container. The dedi part is that they have the whole server to themselves. At the same time, I don't give them root access to the dedi, where they can easily screw up something. They still get close to 100% of the performance they would if they were directly on the Dedi. Can also add more containers if they want. Also makes it super easy to migrate them to another Dedi. Just as easy as it is to migrate any other container. It's a very flexible way to do things if it fits your business model.

  • @KuJoe said: I looked into it but I still don't trust ploop yet. Although adding KVM support into the OVZ 7 kernel was an interesting move. :)

    Ploop, there goes your filesystem.

    Benchmark: wget https://s.flamz.pw/dl/bench.sh && bash bench.sh

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  • edited November 15

    @FlamesRunner said:

    @KuJoe said: I looked into it but I still don't trust ploop yet. Although adding KVM support into the OVZ 7 kernel was an interesting move. :)

    Ploop, there goes your filesystem.

    They did not add KVM as far as I know. KVM is already there. Maybe just the hooks so it can talk to their API. OVZ7 kernel is probably about 95% stock kernel with a few extra things added. They were striving for 100% stock kernel but it doesn't give them some very important things including better security. All disadvantages of LXC although LXD is looking a little more interesting. Still not as good as OVZ7 yet, and you are married to Canonical/Ubuntu with LXC/LXD since nobody else is supporting it anymore.

    Ubuntu is fine for desktop but CentOS/Debian is superior for server usage imo. Not sure where Debian is at with LXC/LXD but pretty sure Redhat has walked away.

  • oneilonlineoneilonline Member, Provider

    Yea, ploop has its benefits, but also had its pitfalls.

    Our openvz and kvm are priced the same, but openvz still sells more. I think it's because of its simplicity. The larger the VPS, KVM makes more sense and runs more efficiently.

    I don't think the technology will change much because VPS are for those small quick services, niche like, otherwise customers jump to a dedicated system.

  • I would rather have something with >= 4 cpu and enough ram to run my own kubernetes. or at least >=2 cpu and enough ram to run something based on docker compose. But for static content no one can beat shared hosting in terms of price, even s3

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    LosPollosHermanos said: They did not add KVM as far as I know. KVM is already there.

    KVM support is not available in the OpenVZ 6 kernel so it's nice that it's available in the OpenVZ 7 kernel. They've also added the ability to manage both OpenVZ and KVM with a single tool (prlctl).

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
    Need free hosting? Get AFreeCloud
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