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Server in Dallas, TX USA -->Client in China "ping to high"

Server in Dallas, TX USA -->Client in China "ping to high"

ServerHandServerHand Member, Provider

Hello,

What is your take on a person from China buying a VPS on a server in TX and then immediately cancelling because they can't bother to test beforehand? Would you refund if you have the tools available before purchase to test the server and ping (looking glass)?

Thank you. Appreciate your opinions.

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Comments

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider
    edited September 13

    I would refund it if you don't want to deal with a dispute/chargeback. Mostly if it's in the first 24h.

    My terms say 72 hour refund period, but I typically refund if it's within 10 days.

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  • ServerHandServerHand Member, Provider

    @MikeA said: I would refund it if you don't want to deal with a dispute/chargeback. Mostly if it's in the first 24h.

    My terms say 72 hour refund period, but I typically refund if it's within 10 days.

    Thank you @MikeA, I appreciate that. I refunded him, but I'm really confused as to what someone from China was expecting from a server in the middle of the US. Some people have unreasonable expectations.

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  • GTHostGTHost Member, Provider

    Why people from China looking for a server in Dallas? Why not in LA or San Francisco?

    GTHost.com Instant Dedicated Servers - Chicago, Toronto, Frankfurt. E3 v3 started from $49/mo. Ready in 10 mins. Looking Glass

  • gongyigongyi Member
    edited September 13

    I think some of them just care about the low price. it is hard to submit a ticket to refund in english, the simplest way to get money back is disputing in paypal when they are not happy to use them , no reason , it is a habit !

    You should know we chinese buy anything in TaoBao (one brand of alibaba) or some other e-commerce platforms can get money back with no reason in 7~ 15 days , you just need to submit a button .

    Do Not Be Surprised , this is the truth in China .

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  • @ServerHand said: I'm really confused as to what someone from China was expecting from a server in the middle of the US. Some people have unreasonable expectations.

    Probably just an inexperienced user. Experienced users know which locations to pick for good cn connectivity.

  • It's probably just a couple of bucks. Just refund and be done with it. unless of course if you want to waste your time replying ticket , deal with the drama , dispute/charge back. I don't know about you. But it's not worth my time dealing with all that for a couple of bucks. Beside, happy customer is good for business.

  • RIYADRIYAD Member, Provider
    edited September 13

    People from China(not all) orders random usa and even eu location vps and end up cancelling them and asking for refund . This happens because there are many Chinese sites/blogs where a group of people are sharing affiliate links . So a client thinks vps would have good connectivity to China .

    If the user ask for refund within 24hours , we refund them without asking anything .

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  • PzeaPzea Member, Provider
    edited September 13

    This is a complicated thing.

    I'm Chinese, this thing I don't know how to express.

    I think your implementation of the TOS rules is correct.

    Pzea.com - jp/SG/HK| VPS & Dedicated Servers
  • lihanlinlihanlin Member
    edited September 13

    Opening a ticket to discuss about it is much better than opening a dispute on Paypal, they might think the Paypal dispute is the quickest way to get the money back and also have some problem on communication. They just don't know what the Paypal Dispute bring to the providers.

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  • PzeaPzea Member, Provider

    I give a full refund for each customer's first order 30 days.

    My intention is to pick the best customer or let a good customer come back and avoid dispute refund, if open a dispute i will use full time refuse him.

    They have a lot of reasons for the refund, bad customers I will refuse his second time.

    few dollars can not get rich, I need take time to find more stable big customers.

    Pzea.com - jp/SG/HK| VPS & Dedicated Servers
  • PzeaPzea Member, Provider
    edited September 13


    1. I am in a bad mood today, refund.
    2. Today, my girlfriend broke up with me, refund.
    3. Today, my dog's appetite is not good, refund.
    4. Your attitude is not good, refund.
    5.Today's work is not smooth, refund.
    6.Why you don't start to give me a refund, must me say it.
    7. I just want open dispute.

    ---------------
    I want BOOM!

    **Some customer just want buy a "cheap", and very cheap, and very fast, but most people do not have business to make money, so want get the refund find next cheap and fast. **



    Most of the purchase of more than $25 for vps, $120 for server, this customer they have a clear need.

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  • We get a lot of folks who grab a VPS, try to proxy Netflix or buy their shoes, and cancel for "server too slow".

    Cost of business.

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  • WSSWSS Member

    Many hosts have decided to no longer offer services to China directly due to a common ideal which enables them to personally find any possible reason to not pay for services rendered.

    What hath God bought! - II BlackFriday Numbers 23:23

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  • a2razora2razor Member
    edited September 14

    Back whenever playing Blade and Soul, I knew alot of Indonesian players who were buying up VPS's with various providers in Dallas -- just hunting for "cheap service" w/ low packet-loss to both theirselves and NCSoft. (given it's cheaper to get a server in Dallas vs Jakarta or Singapore)

    -Since alot of people have custom bandwidth mixtures and or don't provide their own looking-glass servers, it's honestly hard to evaluate these things "as a gamer". In some cases too certain DC's are entirely blocked from NCSoft's end (example -- psychz networks). Additionally, game servers may / often do block ICMP.

    That said, self experience wise (since I've done the same thing to Japan for FFXIV), budget VPS's and gaming don't mix-well, heh.... Still, lots of legitimate reasons a person might want a server far away for some exotic need like forcing custom routing.

    Probably best to assume people are honest until they prove otherwise in doing something fishy.

  • CenTexHostingCenTexHosting Member, Provider

    That is a common deal with clients from china. They will order and then cancel in a few min later. Not saying that happens all the time but if you market to that area then I would expect a few a month that will do this.

    Its easier to just refund them and move on

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  • @Pzea said:
    1. I am in a bad mood today, refund.
    2. Today, my girlfriend broke up with me, refund.
    3. Today, my dog's appetite is not good, refund.
    4. Your attitude is not good, refund.
    5.Today's work is not smooth, refund.
    6.Why you don't start to give me a refund, must me say it.
    7. I just want open dispute.

    ---------------
    I want BOOM!

    **Some customer just want buy a "cheap", and very cheap, and very fast, but most people do not have business to make money, so want get the refund find next cheap and fast. **



    Most of the purchase of more than $25 for vps, $120 for server, this customer they have a clear need.

    Just abuse

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  • ehabehab Member
    edited September 14

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  • Sometimes the routing table in the edge router could be messed up so that you may see completely different ping results for some adjacent IPs on the same server in the same datacenter. The most famous example was probably from Ramnode where their looking glass IP is 23.* and the actual IP they give you is 107.* and has a dramatically different route from / to China.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    @msg7086 said: Sometimes the routing table in the edge router could be messed up so that you may see completely different ping results for some adjacent IPs on the same server in the same datacenter. The most famous example was probably from Ramnode where their looking glass IP is 23.* and the actual IP they give you is 107.* and has a dramatically different route from / to China.

    Its not 'messed up' it's just how routing works.

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  • Clouvider said: Its not 'messed up' it's just how routing works.

    True, that's how routing works, but many people don't understand. They usually have superstitious beliefs about routing (eg, looking glass IP and actual IP have same routes, routes do not change over time, etc.) and possibly demand refunds based on the unmet expectations. Although personally I never do it, I don't find this type of reason unreasonable.

    I heard some providers are allowing customers to choose exactly which /24 their VPS will be in. That might be a good move to cater for these picky customers.

  • gongyi said: You should know we chinese buy anything in TaoBao (one brand of alibaba) or some other e-commerce platforms can get money back with no reason in 7~ 15 days , you just need to submit a button .

    Do Not Be Surprised , this is the truth in China .

    You did explain why this happened, but that does not nearly justify this action. These providers are not trading on TaoBao, instead they have their own ToS. Your "deal with it" kind of suggestion is off-putting IMHO, and that is not helpful either.

  • @Clouvider said:

    Its not 'messed up' it's just how routing works.

    @psb777 said:

    True, that's how routing works, but many people don't understand. They usually have superstitious beliefs about routing (eg, looking glass IP and actual IP have same routes, routes do not change over time, etc.) and possibly demand refunds based on the unmet expectations.

    Yes we understand this is how it works. By 'messed up' I was talking about China xxxcom edge routers and stuff.

    But what's wrong with asking for a refund when the provided service is different than advertised? The provided IP had a much worse connection compared to the looking glass IP (way higher packet loss, and even higher ping, etc, and totally unusable for Chinese users).

    That's my point to what OP said Would you refund if you have the tools available before purchase to test the server and ping (looking glass).

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    The number of cancellations and refund requests from China users is staggering.

    Generally speaking, if they order and cancel within a couple of days, we'll authorize a refund because it's just easier.

    But if we get a charge-back on Paypal, we dispute the charge-back and 9/10 times we win! Chinese users open a dispute saying they did not receive the item or item was not as described, but they are not at all covered by Paypal's protection policy for services and so Paypal will rule in the provider's favor.

  • @psb777 said:

    You did explain why this happened, but that does not nearly justify this action.

    Because taobao designed their system in a way that dispute to refund button is the suggested (and only) way to request a refund. When you buy a box of light bulbs and 1 of 8 is DOA you have to click dispute button to request 1/8 of the money back -- and that's the only way for the seller to refund you, as sellers can't issue a refund from their side.

    This leads to a de facto workflow for Chinese users to always dispute in all payment gateways and business when they meant to ask for a refund.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider
    edited September 16

    It doesn't really matter. If Chinese user wants to buy in the West, they need to respect western rules. Or more and more often hit the wall in a form of outright block of orders from their country. It's as simple as that.

    Equally, if the contract does not guarantee you have any sort of latency or packet loss to China, then you have no right to receive your money back.

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  • CConnerCConner Member, Provider
    edited September 16

    To be honest, I am so tired of cases like these that I simply decided not to take orders from users in China anymore.

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  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited September 17

    msg7086 said: Yes we understand this is how it works. By 'messed up' I was talking about China xxxcom edge routers and stuff.

    But what's wrong with asking for a refund when the provided service is different than advertised? The provided IP had a much worse connection compared to the looking glass IP (way higher packet loss, and even higher ping, etc, and totally unusable for Chinese users).

    That's my point to what OP said Would you refund if you have the tools available before purchase to test the server and ping (looking glass).

    This is complete ignorance of how the internet works then! Routes on the internet constantly change based on availability, throughput, latency and cost of route. If for example you use a provider that uses something like Noction or use a premium provider like InterNap or PhoenixNap which use MIRO then routes to any location could change at any time and a single test from a Looking Glass can not be seen as what you will 'always get'! People confuse ping, traceroute or MTR tests to be something that once they test it will now and always be like that. Unfortunately, even on networks which don't employ such specialized routing platforms, this is not the case! ANY network at ANY time can change its routing or peer usage to best fit their internal cost expectations and/or needs of their customers and will generally, especially during busy periods, default to the cheapest, high throughput route they have available which may not result in good speeds or routes to all locations.

    The only time you may see consistently the same routes is if you pick a provider that is single homed or dual homed to only specific providers (HE and Cogent come to mind, like Nocix uses and several other cheaper US providers). Even then, routes can change with-in those networks at any time which could still impact your throughput and latency to that location.

    Sure, you can make excuses for your ignorance and why you don't want to learn about how things really work and instead just click that 'Dispute' button, but this doesn't mean you are doing the right thing or even being ethical, it just means you don't give enough of a shit to read, learn and understand how networks work. This is the fault of the end user, not the provider. Punishing the provider for your own ignorance is a real quick way to get your self listed on MaxMind, Fraudrecord and other lists which will note the charge back and your failure to understand how to use the product. Once you get these types of listings, it will preclude you from being accepted by future providers as they will see your use as fraud. You should keep this in mind when clicking that 'Dispute' button instead of taking the few additional minutes to open a ticket, regardless of what you are 'used to'!

    In many cases (not all), if you open a ticket to your provider and report a specific routing issues they can usually escalate this issue to their network operations group or data center and get routes changed to your location or locked to specific routes for your IP for a period of time. Even then, the routes can still become reverted because of availability of that route at any time and this should be understood.

    my 2 cents.

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  • CConnerCConner Member, Provider

    ^ this. Unfortunately payment providers like PayPal support this kind of behaviour by providing no seller protection when selling virtual goods.

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  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider
    edited September 16

    @CConner said: ^ this. Unfortunately payment providers like PayPal support this kind of behaviour by providing no seller protection when selling virtual goods.

    Because it's hard to insure. It falls on the banks who need to judge fairly.

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  • CConnerCConner Member, Provider

    Clouvider said: Because it's hard to insure. It falls on banks who need to judge fairly.

    I know, but they don't even consider any of my evidence, showing quite clearly that the customer is in the wrong and not us. However, even when calling them up and explaining the situation do they grant the refund to the customer. If we are lucky we don't have to pay any transaction fees,

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  • a2razora2razor Member
    edited September 23

    @Clouvider said: It doesn't really matter. If Chinese user wants to buy in the West, they need to respect western rules. Or more and more often hit the wall in a form of outright block of orders from their country. It's as simple as that.

    Equally, if the contract does not guarantee you have any sort of latency or packet loss to China, then you have no right to receive your money back.

    This is a fair view as long as there's no trial-period nor any length of satisfaction-guarantee of service. (given we're talking of cancellations shortly after a purchase)

    That said, I wonder how many people actually open a pre-sales ticket if they have specific needs... Or, at least fill out the "intended use" section of an order form.

    • I know I've always made it abundantly clear what my use and expectations were before signing up in the gaming days. People should do this IMO, the best way to avoid confrontations and misunderstanding is to just be upfront with what you want to do.

    @TheLinuxBug said: If for example you use a provider that uses something like Noction or use a premium provider like InterNap or PhoenixNap which use MIRO then routes to any location could change at any time and a single test from a Looking Glass can not be seen as what you will 'always get'!

    ^ +1000, seriously.

    I can't overstate how many times I've had to request custom shunts to be added with Internap, and this is why I no longer use them for "personal proxies". Automatic route optimization does not mix well with trying to do your own manual routing.

    For reliability it's best to buy a ton of budget servers on cheap networks with relatively fixed routes and do it yourself with mptcp, OpenVPN + ifenslave (mirroring), or similar. Yet, still need an expensive reliable server at the endpoint for assembly and delivery to the destination.

    Sadly I think most people expect MIRO to be a magic-cure for any connection hickups.

  • bapbap Member

    @Pzea said: I give a full refund for each customer's first order 30 days.

    My intention is to pick the best customer or let a good customer come back and avoid dispute refund, if open a dispute i will use full time refuse him.

    They have a lot of reasons for the refund, bad customers I will refuse his second time.

    few dollars can not get rich, I need take time to find more stable big customers.

    really? I will ask for refund every 29th, is it okay?

  • sureiamsureiam Member
    edited October 19

    Why not just move him to your LA location? If you say no refunds after a certain time it's their responsibility to understand that. If he comes back though and says "hey can you move me to LA my ping sucks" that seems perfectly reasonable to me. If it costs more charge more, if it's the same then no harm done I suppose.

  • YmpkerYmpker Member, Provider
    edited October 19

    @gongyi said: I think some of them just care about the low price. it is hard to submit a ticket to refund in english, the simplest way to get money back is disputing in paypal when they are not happy to use them , no reason , it is a habit !

    You should know we chinese buy anything in TaoBao (one brand of alibaba) or some other e-commerce platforms can get money back with no reason in 7~ 15 days , you just need to submit a button .

    Do Not Be Surprised , this is the truth in China .

    In Germany we also have a 14 days return/money back protection law in place for internet deals. You can request money back within 14 days without any reason (Fernabsatz).

    /Signature/ https://uptime.is

  • @gongyi said: I think some of them just care about the low price. it is hard to submit a ticket to refund in english, the simplest way to get money back is disputing in paypal when they are not happy to use them , no reason , it is a habit !

    You should know we chinese buy anything in TaoBao (one brand of alibaba) or some other e-commerce platforms can get money back with no reason in 7~ 15 days , you just need to submit a button .

    Do Not Be Surprised , this is the truth in China .

    You have great amount of potential customers from China, please take the responsibility to make sure everyone know that "paypal dispute is not a good way to solve problem".

    Yes, what you said about "Taobao" and "JD" is true, but don't take for granted(and some proud from your words).

    As an affiliate, we both know how service providers-out-of-China works and what they expect for, and what they dislike.

    Please, writing something about this problem and make these potential customers realize the difference and avoid these mistakes.

  • What is your take on a person from China buying a VPS on a server in TX and then immediately cancelling because they can't bother to test beforehand?

    If there is a looking glass or speed test file, the customer should be blamed for "not testing beforehand".

    The network quality is quite complex, my VPS from Virmach New York data center performs much faster than it offers in LA and San Jose(colocrossing). VPS in Dallas(psychz) is faster than those in LA and San Jose(colocrossing) too.

    What @gongyi said is right, some just care about the low price. If you really want to avoid these trouble, set all your low end packages "non-refundable" and put it on a place cannot be ignored.

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